Armament of the "SMS Breslau / Midilli"

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I notice this very interesting question asked on another site, I was not aware of the increase in gunnery or what they did with the old guns, maybe you will know?

"Questions about the armament of the "SMS Breslau / Midilli" in 1916

Actually, I just wanted to find out what happened to the originally twelve 10.5 cm SK L/45 guns of the "SMS Breslau / Midilli" after the rearmament to eight 15 cm SK L/45. It is documented by reputable text sources (Gröner) that two 15 cm SK L/45 guns were installed on "SMS Breslau / Midilli" as early as 1916, replacing two of the 10.5 cm guns. The 10.5 was then available for another use. (Coastal fortifications at Galipoli or at the Euphrates River Detachment?) Where and how the distribution of these guns (2x15 cm and 10x10.5 cm) now looked, however, causes a problem, as this is so far neither detectable by photos, plans or reports.


Even among marine professionals, this question comes up:
Kaiserlicher kleine Kreuzer S.M.S. BRESLAU später MİDİLLİ
https://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index ... ic=30545.0

He placed a very nice comparision of the changes in weapons systems from 1915, 1916 and 1917  on the Axis History forum.

Over to you

S.B

[The Treasurer]

The changes to Breslau armament are complicated. I believe the changes were as follows (from notes):

Three 10.5cm guns and ammunition were removed to bolster Dardanelles defences, on 23rd May, 1st June and 2nd July (No.6 port, No.3 port and No.2 starboard respectively). She was thus reduced to nine 10.5cm, with only 132 rounds per gun remaining. One 15cm gun was then installed on the forecastle and the quarterdeck whilst Breslau was out of action following the mine damage in July 1915. This would have displaced the two guns on the forecastle and the one remaining gun aft. I assume two of the displaced guns were used to replace the missing guns to port and starboard, leaving eight on board. She returned to service in Feb 1916. All of the remaining 10.5cm guns were replaced with six 15cm guns, three on each side, during her spring 1917 refit. Groner seems to miss the removal of the three 10.5cm guns in mid 1915.

 

Possible that the no 6 starboard 10.5cm gun remained aft during 1916  (leaving nine on board), with the new 15cm gun below it - a photo would confirm! Can't confirm from notes.

Edited 18 August , 2023 by The Treasurer

[michaeldr]

Does this help?

from The Ship That Changed History: The German Imperial Light Cruiser S.M.S. Breslau 
by Dimitri Galon, p.25> in Quest, Vol.20, No.1

[The Treasurer]

2 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Does this help?

from The Ship That Changed History: The German Imperial Light Cruiser S.M.S. Breslau 
by Dimitri Galon, p.25> in Quest, Vol.20, No.1

Thanks Michael - a good shot. You can just see the aft 15cm on the quarterdeck aft, confirming it's actual position. Oddly Groner's line diagram shows it on the upper deck, between the original no.6 10.5cm gun positions (you can see these empty positions above). That does mean that the No.6 starboard 10.5cm might have remained on it's mount until the 1917 refit, with 9 remaining 10.5cm still mounted during 1916. A 1916 picture would confirm for certain. There is also something aft on the upper deck, but I can't make out whether it looks like an unshielded gun or a boom!

[michaeldr]

These are the details given in the text by Galon, but I have no idea of his sources 

QUOTE - July 18, 1915: While departing the Bosporus Strait to escort the Ottoman steamer Keşan, she hit an enemy mine that exploded under boiler room no. 4. Eight members of the crew were killed. Although flooded with over 600 tons of seawater, she managed to reach İstinye at the Bosporus. The Midilli remained off duty until February 1916. Repairs were executed slowly due to the shortage of materials and qualified personnel. During repairs she was modernized and re-equipped. Instead of two aft 105 mm SK L/40, she received two 150 mm SK L/45 naval guns. That was the first stage of modernization. During the second and final stage, which took place from July 1916 to June 1917, the remaining 105 mm SK L/40 guns were replaced by 150 mm SK L/45 guns. The total gun count reached eight pieces: one at the bow, one at the aft, and three on each side of the vessel.

[from The Ship That Changed History: The German Imperial Light Cruiser S.M.S. Breslau by Dimitri Galon, p.25> in Quest, Vol.20, No.1]

[michaeldr]

2 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

There is also something aft on the upper deck, but I can't make out whether it looks like an unshielded gun or a boom!

This shot of may (?) help

[michaeldr]

From the Mitchell Report [REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE ATTACKS DELIVERED ON AND THE ENEMY DEFENCES OF THE DARDANELLES STRAITS. 1919] p. 385

It was stated that during 1915 and the early part of 1916, "Breslau” remained eleven months in the floating dock at Stenia undergoing repairs to injuries inflicted by mines in the Black Sea ; during this time, however, her armament was changed from twelve 10.5 cm. Cal. 45 guns, to ten 15 cm. Cal. 45 guns.

 

And as to what happened to the guns; some are accounted for on p.481

Or are they? ? ?

Note the calibres given

 

No. 54 (Kum Kale) Battery.—No efforts made to restore the fort destroyed by Naval action in February, 1915, but after the evacuation, three 8.8 cm. Q.F. Krupp shielded guns (1909) on c.p. mountings and two 4.7 cm. Hotchkiss Q.F, guns were mounted for use against small craft and submarines. They came from the “Breslau.” One of the 8.8 cm. guns is on top of Kum Kale Fort with an all-round arc fire; the other two are about 100yds. south-east of the fort and overlook the pier. Left limit, Cape Helles, owing to being masked by old fort. Guns spaced 35 yds. apart in shallow circular pits, connected by trench. Field construction observation post in Kum Kale Fort with telemeter. Fixed ammunition includes star shell with fuse Dopp 2S/26. The two 4.7 cm. guns are mounted in bastions of old fort

[The Treasurer]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

From the Mitchell Report [REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE ATTACKS DELIVERED ON AND THE ENEMY DEFENCES OF THE DARDANELLES STRAITS. 1919] p. 385

It was stated that during 1915 and the early part of 1916, "Breslau” remained eleven months in the floating dock at Stenia undergoing repairs to injuries inflicted by mines in the Black Sea ; during this time, however, her armament was changed from twelve 10.5 cm. Cal. 45 guns, to ten 15 cm. Cal. 45 guns.

 

And as to what happened to the guns; some are accounted for on p.481

Or are they? ? ?

Note the calibres given

 

No. 54 (Kum Kale) Battery.—No efforts made to restore the fort destroyed by Naval action in February, 1915, but after the evacuation, three 8.8 cm. Q.F. Krupp shielded guns (1909) on c.p. mountings and two 4.7 cm. Hotchkiss Q.F, guns were mounted for use against small craft and submarines. They came from the “Breslau.” One of the 8.8 cm. guns is on top of Kum Kale Fort with an all-round arc fire; the other two are about 100yds. south-east of the fort and overlook the pier. Left limit, Cape Helles, owing to being masked by old fort. Guns spaced 35 yds. apart in shallow circular pits, connected by trench. Field construction observation post in Kum Kale Fort with telemeter. Fixed ammunition includes star shell with fuse Dopp 2S/26. The two 4.7 cm. guns are mounted in bastions of old fort

Michael

Karte 12 from Volume 2 of Lorey does seem to confirm the guns present in 1916, as it shows 3 8.8cm SKL/45 guns at Kum Kale (Usedom Battery), but as you note wrong calibre for Breslau. The only 10.5cm SKL/45 (the calibre and type on Breslau) shown on the map are two at Harabkale Battery above Sed ul Bahr, I'm guessing from Breslau and must have been installed after the evacuation.

 

I did just notice that Lorey Volume 1 (p.297-8) does state that two of the 10.5cm guns removed from Breslau on rearmament in 1917 were installed at Midia at the western entrance to the Bosporus. It is also stated on p.168 that the 10.5cm gun removed in July 1915 was specifically to replace one that had been destroyed in the Asiatic coast batteries.

[Holger Kotthaus]

Thanks to Steve for posting the topic here also in the GWF, there has already been
some very interesting feedback and answers to my question. Many thanks for that.
Since a picture explains more than 1000 words; - here pictures and graphics again.

Actually, I just wanted to find out what happened to the originally twelve 10.5 cm SK
L/45 guns of the "SMS Breslau / Midilli" after the rearmament to eight 15 cm SK
L/45. It is documented by text sources (Gröner) that two 15 cm SK L/45 guns

Situation End of 1915

Original Source: http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/pi ... _guns.html

Situation 1916? The detectability of the two (possible10.5 cm SL L/45 is quite low.
The 15 cm rear gun, however, is more clearly visible.

Edited 8 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus

[Holger Kotthaus]

Original Source: http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_20 ... 607531.jpg
SMS Goeben 1916 Photos https://gmic.co.uk/topic/18483-sms-goeben-1916-photos/

 

It is only a thesis, but the, for me only logical constellation, which I have tried to
compare roughly and schematically here for 1915, 1916 and 1917.

 

With high probability a 4.1" gun of the "SMS Breslau / Midilli" on the way from Constantinople to the upper reaches of the Euphrates.
Picture decription by the owner of the photo: "Photograph taken approx. 1917 by a German officer.
The gun was brought to Euphrates river and installed on a river gun boat near Jerablus."

Original Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/9525330482

Is it possible to determine where these twelve 10.5 cm guns were used during
the war? - and which survived the war, e.g. B. as a monument?

Cheers Holger

 

Edited 8 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus

[The Treasurer]

On 08/09/2023 at 15:58, Holger Kotthaus said:

Thanks to Steve for posting the topic here also in the GWF, there has already been
some very interesting feedback and answers to my question. Many thanks for that.
Since a picture explains more than 1000 words; - here pictures and graphics again.

Actually, I just wanted to find out what happened to the originally twelve 10.5 cm SK
L/45 guns of the "SMS Breslau / Midilli" after the rearmament to eight 15 cm SK
L/45. It is documented by text sources (Gröner) that two 15 cm SK L/45 guns

Situation End of 1915

Original Source: http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/pi ... _guns.html

Situation 1916? The detectability of the two (possible10.5 cm SL L/45 is quite low.
The 15 cm rear gun, however, is more clearly visible.

Holger

 

The second picture is very useful. As it shows a 10.5cm on the aft platform, with the 15cm below, this is good photographic proof that the no.6 starboard 10.5cm remained on the ship after the installation of the first two 15cm.

 

So some things are certain, others less so, summarising the info so far:

CERTAIN: Start 12x10.5cm

CERTAIN: 23rd May 1915, No.6 port 10.5cm removed to Dardanelles defences, 11 left - per my notes from war diary

CERTAIN: 1st June No.3 port 10.5cm removed to Dardanelles defences, 10 left - per my notes from war diary

CERTAIN: 2nd July No.2 starboard 10.5cm removed to Dardanelles defences per my notes from war diary, 9 left (PROBABLE: 2 of the three removed guns probably ended up at Harabkale Battery above Sed ul Bahr per Official History (Lorey Band 2 Karte 11, as this alone mounted 10.5/45 SKL)

Lorey Band 1 refers directly to this last removal on p.168 (my rough translation!): "On June 30, in Chanak, Souchon discussed with Admiral Usedom the possibility of taking emergency measures. At this meeting, it became clear that the naval gun batteries of the Asiatic coast had recently been especially active in supporting with their fire the southern group of Turkish troops, which was being pressed by the enemy, and that they only had enough ammunition left for a few days. Souchon had to reject the further transfer of 150 mm and 88 mm guns from the Goeben, so as not to reduce their combat readiness below an acceptable level; he agreed only to replace a destroyed 105-mm gun with a corresponding gun from the Breslau, along with 300 rounds of ammunition." Indicates the 3rd gun went to replace one of the first two guns removed.

Note therefore that No.6 starboard 10.5cm still emplaced.

CERTAIN: July 1915-Feb 1916 2x15cm guns emplaced on forecastle and deck aft respectively whilst out of action with mine damage (confirmed by Lorey). CERTAIN: The  starboard No.6 10.5cm definitely remained (above picture). POSSIBLE: the two guns removed from forecastle were used to replace the missing port and starboard guns, or POSSIBLY removed.

CERTAIN: Spring 1917 All remaining (7 or 9) 10.5cm guns removed and replaced with 6x15cm guns port and starboard (Lorey). PROBABLE: Destination of guns unclear, but your picture and date above suggest at least some of these went to Euphrates. Lorey Volume 1 (p.297-8) does state that two of the 10.5cm guns removed from Breslau on rearmament in 1917 were intended to be installed at Midia at the western entrance to the Bosporus

 

Any more info for clarity gratefully received: whether the guns removed from forecastle were used to fill the gaps in port and starboard battery or sent elsewhere, as well as destination of the 7-9 guns removed in 1917.

 

Edited 10 September , 2023 by The Treasurer
added quotes from Lorey, corrected map number

[Holger Kotthaus]

22 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

CERTAIN: 2nd July No.2 starboard 10.5cm removed to Dardanelles defences per my notes from war diary, 9 left . . .

Note therefore that No.6 starboard 10.5cm still emplaced.

CERTAIN: The  starboard No.6 10.5cm definitely remained (above picture).

The Treasurer

Many thanks for your exact answers & explanations to my questions & comments.

•   Are there reasons given in your source for choosing one side (starboard) or the other (port) to remove the guns there?

As far as I understand you, the Battery-Harabkale (?) was located at the fort "Sed ul
Bahr" (Sedd-Ul-Bahr) on the northern bank of the Dardanelles entrance at Cape
Helles, i.e. the main loading zone. Since I will be in Istanbul for two weeks in
October, I would try to stop by Sedd-Ul-Bahr and take photos if there are guns
and monument there?

 

Quote

 

(PROBABLE: two of the three removed guns probably ended up at Harabkale Battery above Sed ul Bahr per Official History Karte 12

(Lorey Band 2, as this alone mounted 10.5/45 SKL, the third possibly replaced a disabled gun in this battery, based on a remark in Lorey)

 

•   What is LoreyBand 1, 2 . . . ?

 

"Krupp-built 13.5 centimeter guns mounted at the Sedd-el-Bahr defenses, via Illustrated War News"
http://ww1blog.osborneink.com/?p=5810

Even if the caption says otherwise; - these are certainly two of the 10.5 cm guns (To
my knowledge, the 13.5 cm caliber was never built by Krupp. Especially not with the
typical naval protective shields like in the photo) Of course, only if the photo was
actually taken at the Dardanelles, which I somewhat doubt. Looks more like the
North Sea coast in Flanders. Also date is confusing. What du you mean?

Original Source: http://ww1blog.osborneink.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/seddelbahr.jpg

Edited 9 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus

[The Treasurer]

12 hours ago, Holger Kotthaus said:

The Treasurer

Many thanks for your exact answers & explanations to my questions & comments.

•   Are there reasons given in your source for choosing one side (starboard) or the other (port) to remove the guns there?

As far as I understand you, the Battery-Harabkale (?) was located at the fort "Sed ul
Bahr" (Sedd-Ul-Bahr) on the northern bank of the Dardanelles entrance at Cape
Helles, i.e. the main loading zone. Since I will be in Istanbul for two weeks in
October, I would try to stop by Sedd-Ul-Bahr and take photos if there are guns
and monument there?

 

•   What is LoreyBand 1, 2 . . . ?

 

"Krupp-built 13.5 centimeter guns mounted at the Sedd-el-Bahr defenses, via Illustrated War News"
http://ww1blog.osborneink.com/?p=5810

Even if the caption says otherwise; - these are certainly two of the 10.5 cm guns (To
my knowledge, the 13.5 cm caliber was never built by Krupp. Especially not with the
typical naval protective shields like in the photo) Of course, only if the photo was
actually taken at the Dardanelles, which I somewhat doubt. Looks more like the
North Sea coast in Flanders. Also date is confusing. What du you mean?

Original Source: http://ww1blog.osborneink.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/seddelbahr.jpg

Holger

I've added some detail from Lorey in my summary. Lorey is the German Official Naval History: Der Krieg in den türkischen Gewässern - two volumes

The Breslau Kriegstagebuch does not explain gun selections - just the removal and how much ammo went with each. There is a general attempt to pick guns from different firing arcs. I'd also offer the personal view that the two stern guns are far too close together as designed - maybe her captain thought so too!

Hopefully someone with more knowledge of the area and the defences can confirm whether the above picture looks like Sed ul Bahr.

[michaeldr]

On 08/09/2023 at 19:31, The Treasurer said:

CERTAIN: 23rd May 1915, No.6 port 10.5cm removed to Dardanelles defences, 11 left - per my notes from war diary

CERTAIN: 1st June No.3 port 10.5cm removed to Dardanelles defences, 10 left - per my notes from war diary

The Mitchell Report has the following on p.446
SECTION II.—POLICY AND DEVELOPMENT OF COAST DEFENCES. 
(A) Period, 18th March, 1915, to Evacuation of Gallipoli Peninsula (January, 1916). 

5. The principal developments under (a) to (d) during the period of our occupation of the Gallipoli Peninsula were :—
… … … 
(c) (i) … (ii) … (iii) …
(iv) Baikosh Battery (No. 53a), two 10.5 cm. Q.F., May, 1915, for action against Helles. 

 

The timing sort of fits.
I have not pin-pointed Baikosh Battery yet, but understand it was on the Asiatic side not far from In Tepe

[michaeldr]

This crop from a map in the Naval OH shows In Tepe and 53B – it is my understanding that the new (May/June 1915) 10.5cm battery at Baikosh was in this vicinity

[michaeldr]

15 hours ago, Holger Kotthaus said:

As far as I understand you, the Battery-Harabkale (?) was located at the fort "Sed ul
Bahr" (Sedd-Ul-Bahr) on the northern bank of the Dardanelles entrance at Cape
Helles, i.e. the main loading zone. Since I will be in Istanbul for two weeks in
October, I would try to stop by Sedd-Ul-Bahr and take photos if there are guns
and monument there?

Harabkale or Harabkale Tepe is the old fort behind Sedd el Bahr and was also known to the allies as Hill 141, or (after the events of 26th April 1915) Fort Doughty-Wylie. 
I am not aware of any artillery placed there and have not come across any references to such placements even after the allied evacuation in January 1916.
In 1916-1918 further guns were positioned at Helles, but of a heavier calibre than we are looking for here: eg the Roon gun (Krupp 210mm SK L.40)

[michaeldr]

Looking further into the Mitchell Report, I wonder if this may fit the refs you have for the Battery-Harabkale – see p.477 under the heading Details of Armament, Siting and Construction of Coast Batteries [as part of APPENDIX—PART 2. MARCH, 1915, TO NOVEMBER, 1918.]

No. 7 Battery.—North of above old ruined fort. Armament:—Two 10-5 cm. L 45 Q F. guns (1910) on shielded Naval mountings. Sited about 150 ft. above sea level on eastern slope of hill just below crest. Direct fire towards entrance of Straits. Guns 30 yds. apart in shallow concrete circular pits connected by covered trench containing expense magazines. Fixed ammunition. Maximum range, about 12,000yds. Traversing arc on platform; gun differences marked on gun floor. Arc of fire from Eren Keui to west limit of " V ” beach ; centre line on Kum Kale. Observation post with small telemeter is on top of old ruined fort. Details are substantially as on Plate 84, Figs. 4 to 6, but with ammunition stores in underground communication trench connecting the two emplacements and without galleries. 

Re the latter statement, below are the Figs. 4 to 6 

[The Treasurer]

9 hours ago, michaeldr said:

The Mitchell Report has the following on p.446
SECTION II.—POLICY AND DEVELOPMENT OF COAST DEFENCES. 
(A) Period, 18th March, 1915, to Evacuation of Gallipoli Peninsula (January, 1916). 

5. The principal developments under (a) to (d) during the period of our occupation of the Gallipoli Peninsula were :—
… … … 
(c) (i) … (ii) … (iii) …
(iv) Baikosh Battery (No. 53a), two 10.5 cm. Q.F., May, 1915, for action against Helles. 

 

The timing sort of fits.
I have not pin-pointed Baikosh Battery yet, but understand it was on the Asiatic side not far from In Tepe

 

7 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Looking further into the Mitchell Report, I wonder if this may fit the refs you have for the Battery-Harabkale – see p.477 under the heading Details of Armament, Siting and Construction of Coast Batteries [as part of APPENDIX—PART 2. MARCH, 1915, TO NOVEMBER, 1918.]

No. 7 Battery.—North of above old ruined fort. Armament:—Two 10-5 cm. L 45 Q F. guns (1910) on shielded Naval mountings. Sited about 150 ft. above sea level on eastern slope of hill just below crest. Direct fire towards entrance of Straits. Guns 30 yds. apart in shallow concrete circular pits connected by covered trench containing expense magazines. Fixed ammunition. Maximum range, about 12,000yds. Traversing arc on platform; gun differences marked on gun floor. Arc of fire from Eren Keui to west limit of " V ” beach ; centre line on Kum Kale. Observation post with small telemeter is on top of old ruined fort. Details are substantially as on Plate 84, Figs. 4 to 6, but with ammunition stores in underground communication trench connecting the two emplacements and without galleries. 

Re the latter statement, below are the Figs. 4 to 6 

This certainly looks right for Harabkale. The Lorey map I refer to above shows it about 500m NE of the ruined Sed ul Bahr fort. The map show the defences in "1916". No date is given for the installation of the 2x10.5cm SKL credited to it, so it may be a late addition given the location.

Edited 10 September , 2023 by The Treasurer

[michaeldr]

They probably took the name from the Observation Post as the battery itself is in the middle of nowhere. 

[michaeldr]

On 10/09/2023 at 08:35, michaeldr said:

I have not pin-pointed Baikosh Battery yet, but understand it was on the Asiatic side not far from In Tepe

I'm not sure that this adds much, but for what it's worth, here is the only ref I have been able to find to Baikosh

From "The Troad – an archaeological & topographical study” by J. M. Cook (1973)
West of Çakal Tepe the ridge stretches 3 km. to In Tepe. This is what in part or whole is called Baykus (Kukumagu) Tepe. On the 1:50,000 map `Baikosh Tepe' is marked on the southern slope, which the villagers of Halileli in fact call Dede Bayiri; but the placing of names on these maps is always imprecise.  [That last phrase is worth particular note]

 

[Holger Kotthaus]

On 10/09/2023 at 09:35, michaeldr said:

The Mitchell Report has the following on p.446
SECTION II.—POLICY AND DEVELOPMENT OF COAST DEFENCES. 
(A) Period, 18th March, 1915, to Evacuation of Gallipoli Peninsula (January, 1916). 

5. The principal developments under (a) to (d) during the period of our occupation of the Gallipoli Peninsula were :—
… … … 
(c) (i) … (ii) … (iii) …
(iv) Baikosh Battery (No. 53a), two 10.5 cm. Q.F., May, 1915, for action against Helles. 

 

The timing sort of fits.
I have not pin-pointed Baikosh Battery yet, but understand it was on the Asiatic side not far from In Tepe

Dear Michael,

Thank you for the detailed descriptions; - very helpful.

The time frame for the (first) proof of the 10.5-cm L/45 “Breslau guns” is now also correct.
These could only have been installed on land after they had been removed from the ship.

Holger

[Holger Kotthaus]

On 10/09/2023 at 11:57, michaeldr said:

Looking further into the Mitchell Report, I wonder if this may fit the refs you have for the Battery-Harabkale – see p.477 under the heading Details of Armament, Siting and Construction of Coast Batteries [as part of APPENDIX—PART 2. MARCH, 1915, TO NOVEMBER, 1918.]

No. 7 Battery.—North of above old ruined fort. Armament:—Two 10-5 cm. L 45 Q F. guns (1910) on shielded Naval mountings. Sited about 150 ft. above sea level on eastern slope of hill just below crest. Direct fire towards entrance of Straits. Guns 30 yds. apart in shallow concrete circular pits connected by covered trench containing expense magazines. Fixed ammunition. Maximum range, about 12,000yds. Traversing arc on platform; gun differences marked on gun floor. Arc of fire from Eren Keui to west limit of " V ” beach ; centre line on Kum Kale. Observation post with small telemeter is on top of old ruined fort. Details are substantially as on Plate 84, Figs. 4 to 6, but with ammunition stores in underground communication trench connecting the two emplacements and without galleries. 

Re the latter statement, below are the Figs. 4 to 6 

The mention of "Harabkale or Harabkale Tepe" would then correspond to the entries
in the war diary of 'The Treasurer' and the subtitle of the photo:
 "Krupp-built 13.5 centimeter guns mounted at the Sedd-el-Bahr defenses, via
Illustrated War News"  http://ww1blog.osborneink.com/?p=5810

 

The position of the old bastion (later "Fort Doughty-Wylie") with the Harabkale-
Battery, above the old "Fort Sed ul Bahr", also agrees with the further information
about his death and the illustration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Doughty-Wylie
https://thebertonandeastbridge.onesuffolk.net/assets/Doughty-Wylie/charge.jpg

(This position above `Seddülbahir Kalesi' exists today under the name `Harab Kale´.)

 

The other information also corresponds reliably to the altitude position and even the
exact gun type of the “SMS Breslau” with shielded Naval mountings and the range.

(The small cruiser "SMS Breslau", launched in 1911, was already equipped with the
longer 10.5-cm QF L/45 gun type from 1910. In contrast to the 10.5-cm QF L/40 gun
of the "SMS Königsberg" from 1908, for example)

Also, especially the representation of the 'Cross section on XY' (wonderful!) and
the distance to the next gun of 137 meters matches the photo mentioned above; -
which makes it more credible again in my eyes.

(Even it was mentioned in the drawing: TWO 15 cm Q.F. NAVAL GUNS (c.p.m.) ?

Holger

 

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Did you see the other photo of that so called gun 

Dardanelles, 10,5 cm gun of SMS Breslau

 

The gun was deinstalled of SMS Breslau and moved to the Dardanelles

by Gunter Hartnagel 

Showing a gun as a moblie gun 

 

[Holger Kotthaus]

4 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Mates,

Did you see the other photo of that so called gun 

Dardanelles, 10,5 cm gun of SMS Breslau

 

 

The gun was deinstalled of SMS Breslau and moved to the Dardanelles

by Gunter Hartnagel 

Showing a gun as a moblie gun 

 

Hello Steve,

Very good idea to search for further photos in the Photo stream from Gunter Hartnagel.
Many thanks.

Dardanelles, 10,5 cm gun of SMS Breslau
"The gun was deinstalled of SMS Breslau and moved to the Dardanelles"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/3822403193

However, this photo is puzzling for several reasons. I now have to do some research
to argue this textually and visually. Unfortunately I don't have all of my external hard
drives with me at the moment. Will come back to this.

 

Further photos shows the Battery 614, also with 10,5 cm guns, but with a longer barrel.

"Dardanelles, transport of German guns with water buffalos at Mal Tepe
Pictures taken approx. end of 1915 or beginning of 1916 by a German officer"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/3823128663/in/photostream/

"Dardanelles, German artillery battery 614
Pictures taken approx. 1916 by a German officer. Picture taken after being shelled
by an English monitor (boat). The splitters are pilled up at on the right side of the picture."
https://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/3823130077/in/photostream/

"Dardanelles, German artillery position
Pictures taken approx. 1916 by a German officer showing artillery battery 614"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/3823130399/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/3823130553/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/3823935624/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/3823131997/in/photostream/

Holger

 

Edited 12 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus

[stevenbecker]

Yes this battery is still not solid, as I can find little on it and its stay in Turkey other then a great photos by Gunter.

The two officers mention are as confirmed, but not any other soldier in that unit?

Diesinger    Lt    Arty officer 16th Corps 1915 att Willmer as CO 614th How Bty - Fußartillerie-Batterie 614 (12cm) part 1st Arty Bn at Gallipoli shown commanded the "Ethna Rickmers" during evacuation of Istanbul 1919    1915-19    (not identified) mentioned for his work with Artillery at Kosten Smyrna 5-16 shown in Klaus Wolf's Book

Hammer    Capt / Hptm    Batterieführer Artillery officer commander 614th Art Bn - Fußartillerie-Batterie 614 (Defense Suvla) at Gallipoli    1915-    (not identified)? Battery 614 with 150 German artillery soldiers in Turkey shown in Klaus Wolf's Book

Thats about all I had on it.

Even the Verlustlisten 1. Weltkrieg does not show any soldiers with this unit?