Downed RFC flyers with Oblt Loerzer: who were They?

[PRC]

I think what is not in question is that Bruno Loerzer shot down a Bristol Fighter of 22 Squadron at Aarsele \ Thielt on the 15^th October 1917 and that the crew was Lieutenant Herbert Sinclair Welby and Airman 2^nd Class William Nicol, both men surviving unwounded.

I’m also fairly confident that the correct genealogical and service career information has been identified so far.

So the question, (for me at least), remains  - is this the aftermath of that encounter?

Too many pictures have been identified “positively” over the years by compelling circumstantial evidence which subsequently unravels. Unfortunately by the time this comes to light the attribution has been adopted widely and thanks to the internet will continue to mislead for years to come – so just trying to either bolster the case or nip a mis-attribution in the bud.

The German Officer certainly bears a strong resemblence to Bruno Loerzer – here for comparison is a picture of him from May 1918 from the Bundesarchiv, stated to be in the public domain.

Comparison image courtesy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Loerzer#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1975-031-01A,_Angeh%C3%B6rige_der_Jasta_26.jpg

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

But more knowledgeable souls than I have pointed out there should be some evidence of medals on display.

If Wikipedia is to be believed then his Iron Cross 2^nd Class was awarded on the 7^th March 1915.
But it only shows his Iron Cross 1^st Class and his Knight’s Cross of the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern with Swords as awarded “late 1917” – which raises the prospect it was after the combat on the 15^th October 1917 with Wellby and Nicol.

It also shows him awarded the Knight’s Cross Second Class of the Order of the Zahringer Lion with Swords, but doesn’t say when. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Loerzer

I’ve not come across a physical description of Bruno Loezer, but heightwise seems comparable to the RFC airman on his left. If that is William Nicol, then RFC record shows William was 5 feet 7 and a half inches tall.

As to the British airman:-

The officer pilot appears to be Lieutenant – Herbert Sinclair Wellby held the rank of Lieutenant when shot down.
He is wearing fusilier style collar badges – Lt Welby was serving with the Royal Flying Corps on attachment from the 2/1^st Battalion, London Regiment. That Battalion was affiliated to the Royal Fusiliers and its officers would have worn this style of collar badge.
On his right collar he appears to have something additional. The most likely addition is a “T” for a Territorial Force Officer. The 2/1^st Battalion, London Regiment was a Territorial Force unit.

The airman is wearing one good conduct chevron on his lower left sleeve -  William Nicol enlisted 8^th September 1915 so would have completed 2 years service, possibly unblemished, a few weeks earlier.
The airman also appears to wearing a single wound stripe on his lower left sleeve. – previous army service number(s) not yet identified, so not checked.

William Nichol is believed to have been awarded the Military Medal. Army service numbers needed to check this.
Unlikely the RFC other ranks wore medal ribbons on their flying jackets, but needs to be confirmed.Likely it is just a blemish on the photo rather than a ribbon on display.

No pictures found so far to be able to make a facial comparison for either man.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 16 August , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[Tawhiri]

William Nicol (service # 103362) appears in the daily casualty lists of 7 January 1919 and 20 February 1919 as a released RFC prisoner of war who has arrived in England, and been repatriated respectively.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194173451

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194175375

Hubert Wellby appears in the 10 January 1919 list as being repatriated.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194173698

Hubert Welby was posted as missing in the daily list of 25 October 1917, and reported as a prisoner of war in the list of 22 November 1917.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194144531

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194146572

There must be corresponding missing and reported as prisoner of war reports for William Nicol, but I'm not having any joy finding them.

I guess the question is if William Nicol's initial service # was 103362, and he then became service # 402471, where does the number P/40368 come from on both his casualty card and his PoW cards? Is it a prisoner of war number, rather than an RFC/RAF service number?

Edited 16 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[DavidOwen]

The problem I have is that there is no MIC for Nicol under either of the numbers quoted above and in his RFC record (also above).

The man with the MM has a string of different numbers to his name and no mention of POW (image courtesy Ancestry) He was also "discharged to commission". 

Has anyone had better success at pinning down the man's record?

[Tawhiri]

15 minutes ago, PRC said:

William Nichol is believed to have been awarded the Military Medal. Army service numbers needed to check this.

I'm now pretty sure that this is a different William Nicol, and not the one that we are discussing here. His award of the Military Medal was while serving with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, and was gazetted on 21 August 1917 with the rank of Corporal. Medal index card posted below (removed as David Owen has just posted it as well).

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30243/supplement/8645

 

Edited 16 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[DavidOwen]

4 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

I'm now pretty sure that this is a different William Nicol, and not the one that we are discussing here. His award of the Military Medal was while serving with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, and was gazetted on 21 August 1917 with the rank of Corporal. Medal index card posted below (removed as David Owen has just posted it as well).

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30243/supplement/8645

 

That was my feeling too, so why can we not find the MIC for this man....

[charlie962]

27 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

must be corresponding missing and reported as prisoner of war reports for William Nicol, but I'm not having any joy finding

7/12/17 Daily Casualty List

103362 W Nicol PoW in German hands (Forres)

[charlie2]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Knight’s Cross of the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern with Swords as awarded “late 1917”

Announced in the Friday 28th December 1917 issue of the Militär Wochenblatt. 

Charlie

Courtesy of Ancestry

 

[Tawhiri]

From the Forres News and Advertiser of 3 November 1917, so there must also be an earlier mention that he was missing in the daily casualty lists.

Quote

REPORTED MISSING. Second Air Mechanic William Nicol, R.F.C., son of Mr George Nicol, East Grange, Kinloss.

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear PRC,

Thanks for the "before and after" pictures of Loerzer in 1917 wearing an un-decorated tunic (although he would have had at least the EKII), and in 1918.

In the latter photograph he was wearing a different-style tunic, but with all his decorations pinned on (The EKII would be on the ribbon bar).

His likeness seems to be undisputed, the mouth being a strong confirming characteristic, for example.

Kindest regards,

Kim..

[PRC]

4 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Announced in the Friday 28th December 1917 issue of the Militär Wochenblatt. 

Thank you Charlie. Excuse my ignorance but would that be the equivalent of the London Gazette in that he shouldn't be wearing that medal or ribbon until that date?

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie2]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

but would that be the equivalent of the London Gazette

Hi Peter

The LG would be the nearest thing, it was published three times a week. From other items contained it published events from the previous few days, so I wouldn‘t expect him to be wearing the ribbon earlier.

Charlie

 

[PRC]

11 hours ago, charlie2 said:

The LG would be the nearest thing, it was published three times a week. From other items contained it published events from the previous few days, so I wouldn‘t expect him to be wearing the ribbon earlier.

Thanks again Every day a school day on the forum!

Just wondering - could the same source also reveal when in late 1917 he was awarded the Iron Cross (First Class)?
Or would those details have been held \ published elsewhere?

Cheers,
Peter

[PhilB]

On 15/08/2023 at 16:12, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

The anonymous - probably Army Reconnaisance - crew are of interest. They epitomise the class difference so prevalent in those days, of Officer and Other Rank. 

 

How exactly does the photo epitomise the class difference, Kim?  

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear PhilB

Well, frankly, having myself been sent to posh and costly Australian Private Schools, and having had a father who had the MC, a paternal grandfather who was a lieutenant-colonel (MC, ED), and a maternal grandfather who was a C of E Reverend, I have an eye for middle/upper-middle class types.  Herbert Sinclair Wellby fitted the bill exactly!

The stalwart Other Rank Observer Nicol (the badge was only awarded after a certain number of Ops), however, has the look of a representative of the Working Class  - however snobbish that may sound.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[PhilB]

I suspect that, if the uniforms had been transposed, you’d never have known!

Edited 17 August , 2023 by PhilB

[robbie56]

I blacked out the uniforms and asked my non-British wife who’s who regarding ‘class’. She got it right in a couple of seconds. I’m not sure what that says about me.

I forgot to add she thought the chap on the right appeared more substantial. So much for the class system.

Edited 17 August , 2023 by robbie56

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear robbie56 and PhilB,

Thanks for your replies on this rather tenuous issue. 

Robbie's wife tends to see things the way I do (thanks to my upbringing: my late Mother would have made a perfect Memsahib): however I respect Phil's response. 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Buffnut453]

Equally, I have a relative who was a Sergeant Pilot who regularly flew with commissioned Observers.  His elder brother was commissioned from the ranks.  Talent is talent, regardless of your social position.  Looking at these photos, would you imagine they were the sons of a coal miner who lived in a 2-up/2-down terrace with 10 kids?

 

Edited 17 August , 2023 by Buffnut453

[PRC]

Getting back to trying to close down some of the loose ends on identifying who is present in the picture, it would seem a very strong certainty that Herbert Sinclair Wellby went through some form of public school education. And the archives of said public school might aid us with a picture of him.

Unfortunately the census appearances for him don’t give us much of a steer. Aged 8 on the 1901 Census of England & Wales, and living with his parents, the census taker has not recorded whether Herbert was at a school or not – in fact all the children between 6 and 13 on the same page of the schedule do not have this information recorded. And in the case of the Wellby household there is not a governess or tutor listed.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales father Edward Henry similarly had left the occupation field blank for Herbert.

Given father Edward Henrys’ occupation, Diamond Merchant, I did wonder if the family followed the Jewish faith – simply because that was an industry they dominated in pre-war London. Could Herbert have been forced to partner with an other rank rather than the more normal commissioned officer as a result of all too familiar prejudices?  And chasing Edward Henry back through the census to 1871, his father was shown as John Henry, a Goldsmith, although born in England.

That in turn led to D & J WELLBY LTD

The business took origin from the partnership between Joseph Clements and John Wellby at 57 King Street, Soho as Gold and Silver refiners and dealers. The partnership, founded in 1827, lasted until August 6, 1828, when was dissolved by mutual consent.

The activity was continued at the same address by John Wellby, who entered his first mark at Goldsmiths' Hall in 1834.

New marks were entered in 1863 by Daniel Wellby and John Henry Wellby. The firm, active at 20 Garrick Street, Covent Garden (1879), continued to expand its activity and in 1896/1897 was converted into a limited liability company under the name D & J Wellby Ltd. At that time the directors were Daniel Wellby, John Henry Wellby (d. 1917), Edward Henry Wellby and Howard Wellby (b.1867 - d.1934).

New marks were entered in London (1896) and Sheffield (1897).

At the death of John Henry Wellby two of his sons were working in the firm. As well as Edward Henry Wellby (Director from 1896 and chairman until his death in 1940) there was Edward Victor Wellby who obtained his freedom of the Goldsmiths' Company by Special Grant in 1901 and became Prime Warden in 1930.

His son Guy Sinclair Wellby (b.1906 - d.1989) joined the firm in 1926. He obtained his freedom by Special Grant in 1931 and became Prime Warden of the Goldsmiths' Company in 1965.

The firm remained at 20 Garrick Street until 1965 when moved to 30 Divers Street and 1 Hay Hill, going out of business in 1973/1974.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:P88Y3-tmMU0J:https://www.silvercollection.it/ENGLAWELLBY.html&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b-e

However the 1911 Census return shows that parents Edward Henry and Alice Maud had been married 19 years. According to the parish register the marriage that took place by licence in the parish church of Orpington, Kent on the 3^rd September 1891 was according to the rites of the Church of England. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-8965-NW9?i=11

And according to the dataset “England Births and Christenings 1538-1975” as transcribed on familysearch a Hubert Sinclair Wallby was baptised in Kent on the 1^st January 1893. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWWF-C5X

I don’t know if that is a transcription error, but seems possible.

The Goldsmiths Guild didn’t run their own school during this time, only an institute in London that was handed over in 1904 to the University of London and became Goldsmiths College. The London Guilds supported a number of schools, but which ones might have taken the children of Guild members I don’t know.

According to the civil death records of England & Wales, the death of a Herbert Sinclair Wellby, born 25^th October 1892, was registered in the Chiltern & Beaconsfield District of Buckinghamshire in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1976. The 1976 Probate Calendar records him as Hubert Sinclair Wellby, of Inglesby, Manor Lane, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire who died on the 6^th May 1976.

The Times doesn’t appear to have any reference to the death – I had my fingers crossed for a mini-obituary that mentioned his education or perhaps in the list of those who attended \ sent flowers \ condolences there was a mention of the old school association.

I don’t have subscription access to can’t see the full articles on FindMyPast and the British Newspaper Archive but there are a couple of potentially interesting stories coming up as matches for “Hubert” Wellby. I wonder if the 1910 one relates to his schooling – if indeed it is the same person.

 

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Cheers,
Peter

[DavidOwen]

The 1910 Essex Weekly News Article relates to Barking Technical School Annual Prize distribution.

Hubert Wellby won a prize for shorthand (image FMP)

 

 

[Tawhiri]

29 minutes ago, PRC said:

And the archives of said public school might aid us with a picture of him.

I had also wondered whether he might have obtained a Royal Aero Club Aviator's Certificate, which normally come with a photo, but unfortunately it appears that he didn't. Still not sure what Barking Technical School was, I can't find out anything at all about it online. 

[Buffnut453]

37 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

The 1910 Essex Weekly News Article relates to Barking Technical School Annual Prize distribution.

Hubert Wellby won a prize for shorthand (image FMP)

 

 

 

Ancestry has a Hubert Leonard Wellby, born 19 Sep 1893, son of Thomas Wellby, of Barking, Essex.  I suspect that may be the Hubert Wellby in the newspaper article and not "our" Hubert Wellby.  

[Buffnut453]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Could Herbert have been forced to partner with an other rank rather than the more normal commissioned officer as a result of all too familiar prejudices?  

I've not seen any evidence in RFC/RAF records of the kind of prejudice you're suggesting.  Certainly the sortie records for 11 Sqn, which operated in the same role and in the same area as 22 Sqn, show a mix of officer pilots flying with officer observers, officer pilots with NCO observers, NCO pilots and NCO observers and, as noted above, NCO pilots and officer observers.  While a crew often flew together, it was not a fixed partnership.  There was considerable swapping between crews due to leave, injuries/illness, postings etc.  The whole idea of being "forced to partner" doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid, and would be impractical on an operational squadron.   

Edited 17 August , 2023 by Buffnut453

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Brilliant and fascinating research results!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Buffnut453 said:

I've not seen any evidence in RFC/RAF records of the kind of prejudice you're suggesting. 

There was prejudice in the whole of society recorded by those who experienced it and I believe even more so in some officers mess where it was very, very unlikely to be officially documented. However in this case it was a strawman to try and potentially understand why Wellby might have been partnered with an Airman when I still hadn't resolved whether he was Jewish or not - I tend to write as I research so that others can follow my line of thought.

Of course not every flight will have been likely with the same two crew members for the reasons you have stated, but from the few individuals I've had chance to be able to follow all the way through to their final flight, there were definate recurring preferences.

And by forced all I mean was that if Wellby had been ostracised by the Officers mess, and the Flight Commander and Squadron C.O. went along with it, then he would have had to look outside that group to fill the second seat in the plane.

So Wellby and Nicol could have been a preferred partnership or a one-off for the patrol in which they were shot down - we will almost certainly never know. And by the looks of this blog-post about an airman gunner of 22 Squadron it may have been seen there as a modus operandi with great merit. https://davidlearmount.com/tag/no-22-squadron/

I may also have inferred too much by looking too quickly at 22 Squadron losses from the period which seemed to all be officer \ officer crews - perhaps proof that wasn't the best combination rather than reflecting that it was the operational norm in the Squadron.

Back to the search for Wellby and Nicol

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 17 August , 2023 by PRC
Typos