Downed RFC flyers with Oblt Loerzer: who were They?

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Attached is a scene showing a vanquished RFC Pilot and his Observer, with the victor, Oberleutnamt Bruno Loerzer.

Loerzer wore no decorations, perhaps indicating the beginning of his air fighting career (44 victories). He later achieved notoriety as a Luftwaffe general.

The anonymous - probably Army Reconnaisance - crew are of interest. They epitomise the class difference so prevalent in those days, of Officer and Other Rank. 

Perhaps a GWF aficionado can add more about these two? The picture appeared in "Airmen of World War I": Men of the British and Empire air forces in old photographs" by Chaz Bowyer (Arms & Armour Press, 1975).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Tawhiri]

According to Wikipedia, the full list of Bruno Loerzer's victories is as found at the following link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aerial_victories_of_Bruno_Loerzer

There is both a pilot and an observer so that means it has to be a crew from a two-seater aircraft. If we accept your supposition that the photograph was taken at the start of his career because of his lack of medals, that would suggest that the crew might be from one of the following aircraft:

Victory #	Date	Aircraft	Squadron	Location
14	9 October 1917	Royal Aircraft Factory RE.8	No. 9 Squadron RFC	Langemarck
15	12 October 1917	Airco DH.4	No. 57 Squadron RFC	Southeast of Thielt, Belgium
16	15 October1917	Bristol F.2 Fighter	No. 22 Squadron RFC	Aarsele, Belgium
21	3 January 1918	Airco DH.4	No. 57 Squadron RFC	Southeast of Zonnebeke, Belgium
22	19 January 1918	Bristol F.2 Fighter	No. 20 Squadron RFC	South of Houthulst Forest, Belgium

Victories 35 and 40 were also two-seaters, but in September 1918, and one would have thought that by then he would have been awarded one or more medals which would be visible in a photo.

[Buffnut453]

Looks like fusilier collar badges on the pilot.  Can't be too many of those.  

Of the above, there are no suitable crews who survived the engagements on 9 or 12 Oct, nor the DH4 on 15 Oct.  The 3 Jan 1918 and 19 Jan 1918 engagements also don't tally with the photo.

That leaves the 15 Oct Brisfit which had a crew of Lt H S Wellby and 2AM W Nicol, and Loerzer is listed as the claimant.  Seems like that's the one.  

 

NOTE:  The above data came from "The Sky Their Battlefield II" by the esteemed Trevor Henshaw.

Edited 15 August , 2023 by Buffnut453

[Tawhiri]

16 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

That leaves the 15 Oct Brisfit which had a crew of Lt H S Wellby and 2AM W Nicol,

According to his casualty form, Lieutenant H S Wellby was serving with the 2/1 Battalion of the London Regiment. Perhaps someone like @FROGSMILE could comment on whether he would likely to be wearing Fusilier collar badges if he was serving with this regiment.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/25276

Associated casualty cards.

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/wellby-h.s

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/wellby-h.s.-hubert-sinclair

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/nicol-w

Edited 15 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Buffnut453]

The official title of the 1st London Regt seems to have been "1st (City of London), London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)."  Seems to me that we've found our man.

 

Edited 15 August , 2023 by Buffnut453

[Tawhiri]

The death of a Hubert Sinclair Welby, born 25 October 1892, was registered in 1976 in Buckinghamshire, England.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVC5-5GKB

His birth was registered in the last quarter of 1892 in the Paddington registration district.

WELLBY, HUBERT  SINCLAIR  Mother's maiden name: BURROWS  

GRO Reference: 1892  D Quarter in PADDINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 38

And this is his corresponding christening on 1 January 1893, although the surname has been transcribed as Wallby.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWWF-C5X

That then connects to his appearance in both the 1901 and 1911 England and Wales censuses, with the correctly named parents and birth place. In 1901 they are still living in Paddington, by 1911 they are living in Appleshaw, Hampshire. I'm not too sure what to make of father Edward's change of occupation between 1901 and 1911 though, to go from a diamond merchant to a seaman merchant seems a rather long fall from grace. I'm going to go with a transcription error.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X94Q-MFH

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWQB-G35

Postwar he seems to have married Mary E Kyle in Epsom, Surrey, in the second quarter of 1926, and he can easily be followed in various electoral roles and registers from this point onward.

4 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

They epitomise the class difference so prevalent in those days, of Officer and Other Rank

Also apparent in the inability to find out anything else about his observer, as what looks to be his service # on his casualty card (P/40368) doesn't match up with anybody of that name with that service number, nor indeed is there an obvious candidate in the April 1918 RAF Muster Roll.

Edited 15 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[charlie2]

William Nicol https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/860257/3/2/ looks to be the person.

Charlie

Edited 15 August , 2023 by charlie2

[Buffnut453]

I think his service record is under the number 402741 - repatriated from Germany 17 Dec 1918.

[Tawhiri]

So apparently born in Kinloss, Scotland on 8 May 1893, with a mother living in Forres, Morayshire, Scotland while he was a PoW. That would fit in with this birth on ScotlandsPeople.

NICOL     WILLIAM     M     1893     137 / 50     Forres

Based on his place and year of birth there are a couple of potential candidates in the British Royal Air Force, Airmen's Service Records 1912-1939 collection on Findmypast. Note that neither of them have a service # of 40368, that belongs to a man named C Woodhead, no further details.

First name(s)	Last name	Birth year	Birth county	Attestation year	Service number	Occupation
William	Nicol	1892	Aberdeenshire	1914	319037	Engineer
William	Nicol	1893	—	1915	402741	Assistant Cutter

The second of these appears on the April 1918 RAF Muster Roll with the rank of Pte 1, no sign of the first man however. Ancestry is also producing a partial return that suggests that the second man's birthplace is Morayshire. The first man does, however, have a very interesting medal index card that suggests he bounced back and forth between the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, the RFC, the RAF, and then finally back to the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, with a possible promotion to Honorary 2nd Lieutenant while with the RAF, before reverting back to Sergeant with his last transfer back to the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. The card also gives a home address in Glasgow, and notes that he earned the Military Medal at some point.

On the balance of probabilities I'd suggest that the second William Nicol (service # 402741) is possibly the man we are looking for.

Edited to say snap, Buffnut and I arrived at the same conclusion at the same time .

Edited 15 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

According to his casualty form, Lieutenant H S Wellby was serving with the 2/1 Battalion of the London Regiment. Perhaps someone like @FROGSMILE could comment on whether he would likely to be wearing Fusilier collar badges if he was serving with this regiment.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/25276

Associated casualty cards.

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/wellby-h.s

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/wellby-h.s.-hubert-sinclair

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/nicol-w

Yes the cap and collar badges were identical.  Different shoulder titles, when worn though.  There is a small T for Territorial visible beneath his collar badge.

Edited 15 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

I'm not too sure what to make of father Edward's change of occupation between 1901 and 1911 though, to go from a diamond merchant to a seaman merchant seems a rather long fall from grace. I'm going to go with a transcription error.

And you'd be right

Image sourced Genes Reunited.

The same source has transcribed Herbert as "Hubert Sindai Wellby".

Father Edward died in 1940. The 1940 probate calendar gives him as living at 1 Hall Road, St. Johns Wood, London and his estate was initially valued at £152,434 3s 4d, subsequently resworn as £143,328 8s 4d. Simply allowing for inflation that would be about £6 million in todays money.

I thought the marriage might have made the society pages, and thus possibly a picture of Herbert, but I'm drawing a complete blank with the newspapers on FindMyPast.

Cheers,
Peter

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Brilliant researching. Well done!

Now one suddenly knows all about the Brisfit crew downed by Loerzer (whose uniform has no sign of hooks for his decorations: he would have had at least the EKII and EKI at that stage).

Both Lieut Wellby and his Observer Nicol are interesting in their own ways. The fact that the Wellbys were monied comes as no surprise - he simply looked the type.

Many thanks for putting considerable flesh on the "Abschuss" photograph.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[PRC]

Is that just some odd folds and creases on his lower left sleeve, or does the man we believe to be Nicol actually have a wound stripe and a good conduct chevron on display?

If he does have either, does that tie in with his service reccords at that point of his career.?

Cheers,
Peter

[Buffnut453]

I think it is a good conduct chevron.  Alas, there are no details on his service record prior to his return from Germany and no mention of a good conduct award.  He is listed as an aerial gunner and his status as a POW is dated as 15 Oct 1917.

[Tawhiri]

Just to try and flesh out William Nicol's story a little more and noting that his mother is named as Mrs G Nicol on one of his PoW inquiry cards, I'm wondering if this is William and his family in the 1911 Scotland census. With the census being taken on 2 April 1911, and a birthday on 8 May 1893, he would have been 17 on the day the census was taken, and the RD name matches that of his siblings’ birth registrations.

NICOL	MARGARET	1911	F	47	138/ 1/ 9	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	GEORGE	1911	M	41	138/ 1/ 9	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	WILLIAM	1911	M	17	138/ 1/ 9	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	MAGGIE	1911	F	16	138/ 1/ 9	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	GEORGE	1911	M	14	138/ 1/ 9	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	JOHN	1911	M	11	138/ 1/ 9	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	JAMES	1911	M	7	138/ 1/ 9	Kinloss	Moray

And here is the same family in the 1901 Scotland census

NICOL	MAGGIE	1901	F	38	138/ 1/ 18	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	GEORGE	1901	M	31	138/ 1/ 18	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	WILLIE	1901	M	7	138/ 1/ 18	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	MAGGIE	1901	F	6	138/ 1/ 19	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	GEORGE	1901	M	4	138/ 1/ 19	Kinloss	Moray
NICOL	JOHN	1901	M	1	138/ 1/ 19	Kinloss	Moray

Unfortunately there isn't an obvious death for him on ScotlandsPeople, assuming he returned to Scotland. Formal indexing of mother's maiden name on death registrations only started in 1974, and while ScotlandsPeople are currently backfilling this indexing, they started in 1855 and the last time I checked were only up to the late 1920's. This leaves an almost 50 year gap to still fill in. Given the ages of the children in the census the likeliest marriage for his parents is that of George Nicol and Margaret Murray registered in Rafford (Forres), Morayshire in 1892, so you'd eventually be looking for a William Nicol, mother's maiden name Murray death registration.

Edited 16 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

Finally, Hubert Sinclair Wellby was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 1st (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) on 22 July 1915, after having started as a private with the 25th (County of London) Cyclist Battalion, The London Regiment.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29237/supplement/7170

He was seconded to the RFC on 9 July 1917, and noting Frogsmile's observation that he has a small T for Territorial Force under his collar badge, the announcement also includes the letters T.F. after his name.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30214/supplement/7892

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Tawhiri,

I am impressed!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[PRC]

10 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Alas, there are no details on his service record prior to his return from Germany and no mention of a good conduct award.

Do we not even know when his service began - he would have had to complete at least two years service to even potentially earn one?

And while identifying instances of individuals being wounded from the Official Casualty Lists with any degree of confidence that you've got the lot is a bit of a mug's game, if for example there were two or more instances that could readily be identified for William Nicol, either RFC or the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, then would call the identification into doubt.

12 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

The card also gives a home address in Glasgow, and notes that he earned the Military Medal at some point.

So if the service record doesn't reference that then the inference is that it was won with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. But while serving with the RFC would the medal ribbon have been worn on his flying suit?

I'm assuming that is just a blemish on the photo rather than some odd reproduction of the colours of the ribbon.

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 16 August , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[Buffnut453]

His RFC/RAF record states that he joined the RFC on 8 Aug 1917.  He apparently had prior service, having enlisted on 8 Sep 1915 but there's no indication of regiment. 

The only other detail prior to his repatriation is "22 S" which presumably means "22 Sqn."    

His home address is given as East Grange, Forres, Morayshire.  However ,there's a note "c/o Dalgleish, Clemens Road, Mount Florida, Glasgow.

[Tawhiri]

I think the circumstantial evidence is certainly pointing to William Nicol, service # 402471, as being our man. His PoW cards give his date of birth as 8 May 1893 in Kinloss, Morayshire, with his mother being Mrs G Nicol, so I am pretty sure we have found both his birth registration and family in the 1901 and 1911 Scotland censuses. I don't have full access to either Findmypast or Ancestry, but search results on both are indicating that William Nicol, service # 402471, enlisted in 1915 and was born in Morayshire. We really need someone with full access to one or the other to look at his full service record to confirm this. Repatriation dates from Germany for William Nicol, service # 402471, and William Nicol, service # P/40368, also match.

A check of the April 1918 RAF Muster Rolls shows that William Nicol, service # 402471, enlisted on 8 September 1915, and his trade was aerial gunner with the rank of Pte 1 (AM/2). This means he would have had just over two years service by October 1917, so earning a good conduct award would be possible.

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000186697-nicol-w

I would just like to understand the apparent change in service number from P/40368 to 402471 in his records, if this is him, but I know nothing about how RFC/RAF service numbers were allocated.

[Tawhiri]

20 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

However ,there's a note "c/o Dalgleish, Clemens Road, Mount Florida, Glasgow.

The Glasgow address for the other William Nicol on his medal index card is 80 Copland Road, Ibrox, Glasgow.

Morayshire William Nicol's parents and three younger siblings appear to be living in Rafford, Morayshire in the 1921 Scotland census, no obvious sign of William though. Note that the youngest in the 1921 census is not with the family in the 1911 Scotland census, but there is a corresponding 1905 Nicol/Murray birth registration in Kinloss, which is where the births of all the other children with the exception of William were registered.

Edited 16 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[DavidOwen]

No Nicol on FMP under 402471.

The only records for Nicol 40368 all relate to his being a POW - nothing else.

Images courtesy FMP

 

[DavidOwen]

Looks like the military search on FMP is not picking up RFC/RAF records so here goes (images courtesy FMP)

 

[charlie962]

Findmypast have this. Note this leads to an airman's record that pushes you on to the one referred to already 

 

Edited 16 August , 2023 by charlie962
Clearer copy

[charlie962]

Scottish Horse attestations, some or all?? are on Ogilby Muster.