CWGC - Family Verification Form

[RussT]

I've only just noticed that Family Verification Forms are available in CWGC - they are attached to the commemoration of an individual - evidently originating from the CWGC Archives.

An example is given below for 12807 Albert Haskayne 11/Bn KLR died 19/08/1916.

Serjeant Albert Haskayne | War Casualty Details 2945812 | CWGC

In addition to the normal Graves Registration Documents, Concentration Documents (where applicable) and Headstone Documents (where applicable), this soldier also has so-called Family Verification Documents up-loaded (see image). The Verification Form for Haskyne was completed by his sister, shown below. It is the source of the family/personal information for Haskayne which appears in the Graves Registration Documents (e.g. names/address of relatives, age of the deceased etc) and which now forms part of his digital commemoration.

Not all NoK completed and returned this Form, so not all of the commemorated have personal details recorded in CWGC.

On the other hand, there are plenty that do have personal details included but their CWGC records don't have these Family Verification Forms up-loaded. Does anyone know why?

Russ

 

[NeuvilleLass]

I'm guessing this is probably the reason for a low return rate?

In the Early 1920s economic conditions probably prevented many families being able to afford to pay the costs of the inscriptions? Haven't come across any of these in the battalion I'm currently researching so interested if its a social demographic divide? Wonder what others have found?

[Eoin Gallacher]

In some instances it could also be that the family/widow etc had moved and form was sent to their old address - hence the low return rate?

Eoin

[NeuvilleLass]

2 minutes ago, Eoin Gallacher said:

In some instances it could also be that the family/widow etc had moved and form was sent to their old address - hence the low return rate?

Eoin

Yes I agree Eoin and remarriage by that time also and also we are presuming a level playing field of education and literacy for form filling.

[RussT]

It seems my question has been misinterpreted.

I'm aware that many of these Forms were not returned - I had noted that in my opening post. The reasons for that were no doubt manifold - and you have noted some of the possible reasons. My query was not related to why these Forms were not returned.

My query was in a sense the opposite case. It is evident that many of the commemorated do have personal details included (hence the Form would have been completed and returned by a NoK/relative) but the actual Forms themselves are not up-loaded to the CWGC. I was wondering whether anyone knew why that was the case. Of course I could contact CWGC to ask them - but they can take an age to reply. If someone knew the answer on the Forum, there was a possibility I could get the answer much quicker. Possible answers might be that most of these Forms were destroyed (so no longer available to up-load) or CWGC have only just stated up-loading them (so it's going to take a while to up-load them all) or....... or ........

Regards

Russ

 

[Eoin Gallacher]

Yes, I would have assumed as I have never noticed it before that they have just started adding them and are working their way through... i.e. like the photo's of the graves on the CWGC website, some are up and some aren't. But defo could be for other reasons.

Others might be more knowledge on the matter,

Eoin

Edited 6 August , 2023 by Eoin Gallacher

[chaz]

possibly they are issuing these reports as and when they get a batch done, I get notifications from Ancestry, FMP and FWR when they issue new reports, be it village church returns or school admissions, as was the  1921 census. Presumably they are done in batches as they can be done say over night. when sufficient have been attached they will probably make an announcement.

as for returns from NOK, I always understood, money was tight and being asked to pay to have phrases added ruled many families from adding theirs. Some reasonably , thought , they had given their children/husbands so why should they pay. There is another possibility for non returns, that being as in my family cases, families were villagers with jobs such as cow hand, road man etc they could not read or write. Confirmation from marriage licences, being "their mark" X . 

[RussT]

1 hour ago, chaz said:

possibly they are issuing these reports as and when they get a batch done

That's possible - I've contacted the CWGC with an enquiry - I will be interested to hear what they say (if they bother to respond).

They might be up-loading these Forms one cemetery at a time - the example I posted above was for Albert Haskayne who is buried at London Cemetery & Extension, Longueval.

There are 765 WW1 burials in that Cemetery, 515 of which have additional (family-related) information added to their commemoration. Every record in that cemetery has its Family Verification Form up-loaded - regardless of whether it was replied to or not by the NoK.

I wonder how many cemeteries/memorials have been completed & how long it will take to do them all.

So a supplementary question is: Has anyone seen one of these Forms before? If so, from which Cemetery/Memorial did it come?

Russ

 

 

 

 

[chaz]

I seem to remember either CWGC or Ancestry or one of the others, applied for volunteers a few years ago to scan and transcribe various documents. 

Someone , retired, will probably have more time than me working permanent hours and a second job,  to finish their pile of paperwork. hence theirs would appear on line before mine.

first time Ive seen them, now need to go back through my medal collection to check the paperwork.

[PaulC78]

18 hours ago, RussT said:

So a supplementary question is: Has anyone seen one of these Forms before? If so, from which Cemetery/Memorial did it come?

I've seen a few of these before, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is John Scarisbrick at Canadian Cemetery No.2, Neuville-St. Vaast: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2954984/john-scarisbrick/

But that's been there for years, AFAIK they uploaded these at the same time as the other archive documents. They just don't seem to exist in most cases. I wouldn't be too hopeful about more appearing in the future.

[RussT]

1 hour ago, PaulC78 said:

at Canadian Cemetery No.2, Neuville-St. Vaast

Thanks for the feedback. There are 822 War Dead in that cemetery and every single one has their Family Verification Form up-loaded. That means I am now aware of at least 2 sites having a full complement Forms up-loaded.

1 hour ago, PaulC78 said:

They just don't seem to exist in most cases. I wouldn't be too hopeful about more appearing in the future.

You might well be correct - in which case that could well be the answer I eventually receive from CWGC. The Forms self-evidently don't "exist" in most cases - in the sense that you can simply confirm that they are not up-loaded for the vast majority of the cemeteries/memorials. But whether the Forms exist at all is another question. Perhaps they stored them on a cemetery by cemetery basis - and so just a few cemetery's worth of Forms survived - including at least the 2 mentioned in this thread. Or perhaps they might have all survived but they have yet to up-load them all - or have no longer a desire to up-load any more. Again, I trust CWGC will be able to let me know in due course.

 

[chaz]

well we all remember what happened when the CWGC updated their web site, surprising it works already.

The big banner is a pain if you keep visiting , regarding grave photos, they don't want our help but their current standard is debatable.

I also hate the drop down menus that are along the top. I often do a batch of searches especially when planning a visit. moving the cursor from one area to another drops these menu's down.

[Matlock1418]

On 06/08/2023 at 15:47, RussT said:

I've only just noticed that Family Verification Forms are available in CWGC - they are attached to the commemoration of an individual - evidently originating from the CWGC Archives.

There are seemingly just a few surviving NoK VF remaining and they can only occasionally be found against individual records.

Philip SOBVINSKY, J/1095. Royal Fusiliers is an example of one for the Jewish faith https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/108111/philip-sobovinsky he was buried in Alexandria (Chatby) Jewish Cemetery No. 3

Image thanks to CWGC - downloaded by me from CWGC 22 Nov 2021

It appears they must have had a number of styles since this on on a form with a printer's mark of 4/27 differs from the one in the OP.

Iirc the majority of the NoK VF which were returned were ultimately pulped for the WW2 war effort with the blessing of no other than Sir Fabian Ware - the records by then having been carved in tablets of portland stone etc.

So unfortunately it seems unlikely that there is a large undiscovered record store for us to benefit from in the future.

M

Edited 7 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
add image

[RussT]

24 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Iirc the majority of the NoK VF which were returned were ultimately pulped for the WW2 war effort with the blessing of no other than Sir Fabian Ware

I can't comprehend the first word of your sentence - but perhaps it doesn't change the implications of what you are saying.

Is this something you found have out from somewhere?

[Matlock1418]

Iirc - If I recall correctly.

Apologies as I can't exactly put my finger on and cite the source of my understanding, which I generally like to do as good practice, but I think potentially from CWGC as I have corresponded & raided their archives and have read around over many years.

M

Edited 7 August , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

Some more NoK form examples I have captured from CWGC over the years - available at the links below:

Solomon SLONIMSKI, 113551, 8th Canadian Mounted Rifles  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2757922/s-slonimski - ALDERSHOT JEWISH CEMETERY - Form with a printer's mark of 6/20 - downloaded 2016

J. LOUGHIN 727, Manchester Regt  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/371349/j-loughlin - MANCHESTER SOUTHERN CEMETERY - Form with printer's mark of 4/27 - downloaded 2021

H. MOSELEY, 58670, Leicestershire Regt https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/351347/h-mosley - CRESWELL (ST. MARY MAGDALENE) CHURCHYARD - Another form with a printer's mark of 4/27 - downloaded 2016

John William MILLINGTON, 7196, Machine Gun Corps https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2945985/john-william-millington - LONDON CEMETERY AND EXTENSION, LONGUEVAL - form with printer's mark of 12/52 - downloaded 2020

From such a small sample I doubt any statistically-significant conclusion(s) can be made.

M

[kenf48]

On 06/08/2023 at 15:47, RussT said:

On the other hand, there are plenty that do have personal details included but their CWGC records don't have these Family Verification Forms up-loaded. Does anyone know why?

Because 99% were destroyed in WW2 see CWGC faq

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/about-our-records/documents-faqs/

 

[RussT]

7 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Because 99% were destroyed in WW2 see CWGC faq

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/about-our-records/documents-faqs/

Got it !

Thanks

 

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Because 99% were destroyed in WW2 see CWGC faq

CWGC don't appear to tell the full tale as I recall it/as I've posted above..

M

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, chaz said:

The big banner is a pain if you keep visiting , regarding grave photos, they don't want our help but their current standard is debatable.

Agreed on both points.

The banner is a pain

And their photographers frequently seem to shoot from a high/standing position [?] when really they should crouch down to get better lower and square-on photos.

M

[GMB]

Thats really interesting and not something I have come across before.

Attached is paperwork I have with a local group to a 1st Day of the Somme casualty, which you may find interesting. It shows how much families were requested to pay for personal inscriptions on Headstones. This is also something I hadn't come across until I purchased the group.

Gavin

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Philip SOBVINSKY, J/1095. Royal Fusiliers is an example of one for the Jewish faith https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/108111/philip-sobovinsky he was buried in Alexandria (Chatby) Jewish Cemetery No. 3

Quite a few others in this cemetery have NoK VF [from a very quick scan about 40-50% it seems]

M

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Solomon SLONIMSKI, 113551, 8th Canadian Mounted Rifles  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2757922/s-slonimski - ALDERSHOT JEWISH CEMETERY - Form with a printer's mark of 6/20 - downloaded 2016

One of three in this cemetery has a NoK VF

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

H. MOSELEY, 58670, Leicestershire Regt https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/351347/h-mosley - CRESWELL (ST. MARY MAGDALENE) CHURCHYARD - Another form with a printer's mark of 4/27 - downloaded 2016

Quite a few others in this cemetery have NoK VF [from a very quick scan about 40-50% it seems]

M

Edited 7 August , 2023 by Matlock1418

[jay dubaya]

To date I have found the following which is a mix of verification forms for headstone (2 types) and verification for cemetery registers.

London CE High Wood - 476

Montcornet MC - 79

Ovillers MC - 20

Sucriere MC Collincamps - 22

Terlincthun BC - 21

The Community Collection at Oxford Uni also has a small collection of letters from IWGC to the family of Pte John Mitchell, 10th ASH buried at Faubourg D'Amiens. The cemetery register form is filled in but evidently never returned.

I wonder how many Family Verification forms were returned with the following comment or similar (needless to say there is no added inscription on Gnr Davies' headstone) - 

 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, jay dubaya said:

JW,

Thanks for posting this letter - the Mrs Winmill's sentiment is very clear and one can feel her anger even 100+ years on.

A number of families did not end up paying for inscriptions but I had not realised there was an official "Unable to Pay Form" that would appear to get inscriptions done at state expense.

I believe some families wanted to make some personalisation as a measure of their respect and to also suggest that he had not come from a pauper family unable to pay anything - hence there being quite a few headstones being engraved with a simple RIP

I wonder if you and/or any other member has got an example(s) of this "Unable to Pay Form" that can be posted here for our further enlightenment ??

M