Sapper Keith Hays - 13th Field Company Australian Engineers

[Andrew P]

We received notification in the last week from the Office of Australian War Graves that the submission for Sapper Keith Hays as being the unknown Australian Engineer in Wulverghem-Lindenhoek Road Military Cemetery plot III.A.1 has been approved. (CWGC Case ID No.544)

This was submitted by us to Office of Australian War Graves in November 2016 and another researcher independently also subsequently submitted a case for Hays.

Nearly seven years but glad it was finally approved.

[Matlock1418]

15 hours ago, Andrew P said:

We received notification in the last week from the Office of Australian War Graves that the submission for Sapper Keith Hays as being the unknown Australian Engineer in Wulverghem-Lindenhoek Road Military Cemetery plot III.A.1 has been approved. (CWGC Case ID No.544)

This was submitted by us to Office of Australian War Graves in November 2016 and another researcher independently also subsequently submitted a case for Hays.

Nearly seven years but glad it was finally approved.

A long wait but well done all.

M

[jaykayu]

Congrats Andrew.

[Cheshire22]

On 02/08/2023 at 05:28, Andrew P said:

We received notification in the last week from the Office of Australian War Graves that the submission for Sapper Keith Hays as being the unknown Australian Engineer in Wulverghem-Lindenhoek Road Military Cemetery plot III.A.1 has been approved. (CWGC Case ID No.544)

This was submitted by us to Office of Australian War Graves in November 2016 and another researcher independently also subsequently submitted a case for Hays.

Nearly seven years but glad it was finally approved.

Well done

im still waiting on at least 5 cases, which in the CWGC list are in the late 400 and early 500 

no communication from either the CWGC or JCCC, if they have accepted or not

The case list on the CWGC website has not been updated since June 2021.  
 

countless times of emails, Twitter and Facebook requests, it’s fallen of deaf ears and blind eyes.  
 

they decide to put the cases list on there website, instead of receiving countless emails about cases being submitted and to stop people to submit duplicate cases 

Jamie

[Andrew P]

43 minutes ago, Cheshire22 said:

Well done

im still waiting on at least 5 cases, which in the CWGC list are in the late 400 and early 500 

no communication from either the CWGC or JCCC, if they have accepted or not

The case list on the CWGC website has not been updated since June 2021.  
 

countless times of emails, Twitter and Facebook requests, it’s fallen of deaf ears and blind eyes.  
 

they decide to put the cases list on there website, instead of receiving countless emails about cases being submitted and to stop people to submit duplicate cases 

Jamie

Hi Jamie

Unfortunately the staff who used to respond to queries have left the CWGC. Numerous emails to CWGC have gone unanswered in the last two years, including asking whether their list of submissions will be updated. So much for their 20 day response time in their customer charter.

[dickaren]

Well done Andrew,

Agree with other comments about the poor performance of CWGC in the last few years.

Richard

[andrew pugh]

Hi Andrew.

Great news , well done.

I am in a situation with the C W G C where a relative of a casualty sent in a case to the C W G C. and was never given a case number. I also completed a very in depth piece of research on the same casualty. Because I know the relative I sent him a copy of my findings and after he read it he decided that he wants to let my evidence to override his evidence. which means there is a duplicate enquiry in the system and neither of us have a case number. Neither of us can contact the C W G C. Its become an absolute shambolic organisation. A couple of weeks ago I did manage to speak to someone called Mr Davis. I told him the situation and he told me that his supervisor will phone me back within 4 days because he was gathering evidence to show that their system is not functioning. Never did get a phone call back. I have over the months phoned the C W G C, the operator she answers and transfers you to someone working remote from home, One day I phoned 5 times, one call after the other I bet the operator must have been quite fed up with me keep phoning, each time I was put through to a different case worker working from home, not once did they pick up the phone. Get them back in the office where they should be. I really am starting to get angry with these people. I  just wanted to pass on some information concerning the cases mentioned earlier. Their email doesn't work, no one answers the phone, when you do manage to speak to someone they promise to phone back but don't Their case list is out of date and has not been updated. What if somebody had presented a case to them and had more conclusive evidence which might clinch the case but cannot pass that important evidence to the relevant people?

Why don't they ask some of the independent researchers on this forum who have a bit more passion and dedication if they would like to volunteer to undertake some of these cases. Oh! but they wont do that because it means having access to their records.

Any way it's getting late I've have had my rant. Nothing will change why bother! I think that's what they want. 

Kind Regards

Andy       

[Andrew P]

No worries Andy, I know your frustration.

I am not sure what is going on with the CWGC these days. I have put a few British and New Zealand cases through their portal and normally they were quite quick assigning case numbers, but the last I put in was in April and I only received a case submission number last week.

wouldn't be surprised if cases are slipping through the cracks. I wasn't aware of the work from home thing was still going on.

I have pretty much stopped trying to email them as there never is a response. This poor customer service has taken hold ever since the new Director General started there. Previously there would always be a response to emails from staff members or even the previous DG, even if you had to wait a few weeks or a month or so, but now there is nothing. The previous staff who responded have all seemed to have left the organisation.

They only seem to respond on social media to certain battlefield guides on criticism regarding the upkeep of cemeteries, but even those responses seem to be a cut and paste job.

[Cheshire22]

I’ve given up on emailing them and also submitting cases, I don’t feel they are showing respect to the people who submit the cases.  
 

Last year, the CWGC and JCCC named two researchers in two cases and there have been no further names released this year
 

I know from social media, that a critical aspect of the handling of the cemetery Horticulture has come into play.  
 

Take the case of Kipling and Bowes-Lyon, Dickens from famous families or offfice rank.  
 

They will jump over backwards but when it comes to the humble British tommy they don’t want to know anymore.  
 

I’ve always said this, if the CWGC pass a case to the NAM, we should be told, when it goes from NAM to JCCC we should be told.  
 

as for working from home, they should be in the office where they have access to the their records more quickly. 
 

yes, I work from home for 2 or 3 days a week,  2 reason for this, it is my contract that I can work from home and also we have a staff of 2,500 but only seating for 1,750

[MelPack]

I have the greatest sympathy for those expressing their frustrations here given the dedication of time and effort it takes to assemble a case for consideration but venting those frustrations on the Board is akin to crying in the wilderness with no prospect of change.

Well over a decade ago I orchestrated a lobbying campaign to secure a governmental commitment for the DNA testing of the Beaucamps Ligny 15 and all subsequent battlefield recoveries capable of being potentially identified which resulted in a clear policy commitment that has been held to by every subsequent administration.

Two of the current CWGC Commissioners are sitting MPs:

https://www.cwgc.org/who-we-are/our-commissioners/

I would suggest that you form a collective group and write to those MPs at the Commons in their capacity as Commissioners (otherwise no response will be forthcoming given the strict protocol of communication with only own constituents) and set out your concerns in detail and the practical steps and measures that can resolve the issues.

The CWGC is not unique among institutions in being inert and insular unless prodded.

[andrew pugh]

Hi MelPack

To quote your comment that you have the greatest sympathy for those expressing their frustrations here given the dedication, time and effort it takes to assemble evidence for  consideration, and venting frustrations on the Board is akin to crying in the wilderness with no prospect of change. That's quite a statement. Here's what I think. There are hundreds of people out there, some on this forum, who research family members soldiers, sailors, and airmen and women who were killed during ww1, ww2 and the Korean war. In my case I started researching my relative but while doing so I have discovered and identified 4 other soldiers. Yes It does take a lot of time and effort to gather information and evidence prior to presenting a case to the C W G C for identification. It's something in my view as being a passion and the right thing to do, some people might say it was a long time ago just let it be. In my opinion these unknown casualties deserve to be given a named grave if the case is proven.   

Why should we all form a collective group and write to those MP's at the Commons. They probably don't have a clue and know nothing about the research work carried out by the many independent researchers around the world and on this forum. You used to be able to telephone the C W G C and ask to speak to staff members if they were available of course like David Avery, Nick Andrews, Roy Hemmington to whom you could ask for updates or give additional information for a case. These individuals are of course no longer with the Commission. I wonder why? Here's my personal gripe I want to give in my view some important information regarding a case that has been presented by 2 people for the same casualty, so I phone the C W G C operator she answers the phone you ask for the department required she puts you through to a Mytel number, no one answers, so you phone the operator again explain again that nobody answered, she puts you through to a different mytel number, still nobody answers, guess what I did next I phoned the operator a third time and explained that nobody answered so she put me through yet again to a mytel remote number and still nobody answered. So I gave up .I have tried emailing no answer. Still waiting for case numbers

I tried phoning Mel Donelly answerphone say's always at a meeting. I gave her my contact number and email address asking her to call me back at some point. never did. Eventually I managed to speak to a chap called Mr Davis and explained literary everything to him and what had happened. He said clearly the system was not working and that his boss was aware and was gathering evidence to prove this to be the case, and he would phone me back within 4 day's (20/07/2023) still waiting. Still haven't been able to give this information to anybody. Their current list of ongoing cases has not been updated for some considerable time. It's not the C W G C that it used to be. You cannot get to speak to anybody, They never reply to you. So what chance do we have on getting a reply from MP's who are on the C W G C gravy train who probably don't give a monkey anyway.

We Shall Remember Them, Really! I personally think that the C W G C don't want these cases submitted to them and this is why they make it so hard to do so. If they don't want people to present cases to them for identification, just tell us. If they are struggling with the workload and want to continue receiving cases why don't they ask some of the independent researchers if they would like to take on some of these cases for free. The only thing is of course they would have to let you have access to their records, but they wont do that. It's a shame that it is making folks not bother submitting cases. Its now an organisation that has become a business not what it was set up for originally. Just think how many Soldiers,    Sailors and Airman who now have named graves through the diligent work done by independent researchers and family members, some who sadly are no longer with us. The C W G C would never have named them. Anyway it's late now I have said my piece, and I hope I have not upset anyone.

Kind Regards

Andy

[Cheshire22]

Very interesting statement to make as you take both ways 

Why should we all form a collective groupand write to those MP's at the Commons.

I’m up for joining this group, who is going too be in charge 

 

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, Cheshire22 said:

Why should we all form a collective groupand write to those MP's at the Commons.

I’m up for joining this group, who is going too be in charge 

As I too think there needs to be improvement at CWGC I've dithererd over this approach - couldn't find anyone to take the lead/coordinate for collective action as I don't feel I'm suitable ... but nothing is stopping you/me/us each/all individually writing to those MPs who are CWGC Commissioners [and don't forget the head of the MoD who is also an automatic Commissioner too - I hesitate to name names lest political change should take place!]

= Maybe we should each just get on with it, each in our own style [Though a lead on other salient points would probably help me beyond grinding my own axe on non-comms I've submitted and on non-comms generally - I've not identified any unknown soldiers, though I understand others at GWF have done so, and I am happy to support improvement for those too]

???

M

Edited 20 August , 2023 by Matlock1418

[MelPack]

Jeez - talk about picking up the wrong end of a stick !

I was not criticising anybody for expressing their frustration  and neither was I detracting from the well-founded and wholly legitimate complaints about the inadequacies of the CWGC in dealing with the marvellous research undertaken by dedicated people in their quest to provide names on the graves of Unknowns.

I was merely making a suggestion as to how all those problems could be rectified.

I invite you to think about the impact that Lammy's documentary on the East African carriers had and the CWGC's subsequent response. Highlight a problem and reformative measures will follow for the simple reason that the CWGC is hypersensitive about any suggestion of failure on their part to fulfill their central mission of commemorating the war dead.

[andrew pugh]

Hi Mel

Hope you are well.

I  was not having a pop at you and I know that you were not criticising. All I was doing was highlighting your first comment. So I apologise. Its exactly as you said we are banging our heads against a brick wall. Its been suggested that we contact various MP's who are on the board of the C W G C how do you get hold of their email addresses to raise our frustration regarding communicating with the C W G C. To be honest they probably don't even know what the C W G C does, but I am willing to have ago for the sake of the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen and Women who don't have a named grave. All we want to know is why you cannot speak anybody with what could be vital additional information which might clinch a case, and why don't they reply to emails and telephone enquiries Surely that is a simple request isn't it. No business in the big wide world would not survive if they did what the C W G C does.

Your comment about dear old Lammy! I think he opened up a can of worms regarding the East and West African soldiers and the C W G C felt compelled to carry out lots of research concerning these soldiers, rightly so, and it has taken up a lot of the C W G C resources and time. The C W G C told me a while ago that because of this they have employed extra members of staff ( researchers) to help deal with this influx of work and that it would not interfere with the regular enquiries that we make. But that is no excuse for not doing a simple thing like being able to contact them or them contacting you or me. How do you obtain these email addresses for the MP's are these the ones who are on the list of board members. It's worth a try. Personally think the C W G C has fallen to Wokery and Bureaucracy. I would love to know when the very first case was sent by an independent researcher or family member to the C W G C and excepted, This includes casualties from ww1,ww2, and the Korean War. Just think if we didn't do this kind of thing all the C W G C would have to do is take care of the cemeteries of which they do a fantastic job, well done to them.. In the meantime I will keep trying to get through to them.. You mention they are Hyposensitive about any suggestion of failure. They are not Hyposensitive about failing us are they. 

Kind Regards

Andy         

[MelPack]

Andy

I can fish out the emails for you but I would suggest that you avoid simply pinging an email listing your complaints. Instead, a carefully drafted letter sent in a pdf format would have a far greater impact because the Commissioner MPs will not address the grievances of the researchers but simply pass it on to the powers that be within the CWGC - but that very act of external involvement should be enough to act as a catalyst to achieve change.

In terms of content, I would suggest the following:

• Opener confirming that the letter is written to them exclusively in their capacity as a Commissioner
• Your capacity as one of many private researchers who volunteer their time, resources and dedication to attaching the names of the Fallen to graves previously listed as 'Known unto God'
• Elaborate on the extent of the work involved to muster the evidence and the importance of the same - (I did a quick check on the June 2021list and out of the 842 cases listed, 128 had been accepted at that date)
• Explain your disatisfaction with the current system and its shortcomings

List the practical solutions which appear to me to be that:

1. The Open CWGC Case File List should be updated on a monthly basis
2. A single bespoke email address should be provided to researchers for the submission of cases and additional information/evidence
3. Researchers to be notified when a case has been transferred from the CWGC to the vetting body and then to the JCCC

Couch all this in diplomatic language emphasising that the measure would be neither costly nor time consuming and you may see changes unfold.

I hope this helps.

 

 

[Matlock1418]

I would suggest the matter of Not-Commemorated/Proposed for Commemoration cases should be added to that of Unidentified 'Known unto God/Proposed Identification cases submitted to CWGC.

For both categories updated case listings(s) and better communications & point(s) of contact would similarly help.

M

Edited 22 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[dickaren]

 

Answer from Mel at CWGC in March this year after I enquired as to when the ID cases would be updated from June 21

We are reviewing the information we provide on our website and therefore  are not updating the list of Identification Cases at present. If you wish to avoid presenting a case which has already been submitted by someone else, please do let reply with the grave reference and we'll check open cases for you. 

Richard

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, dickaren said:

Answer from Mel at CWGC in March this year after I enquired as to when the ID cases would be updated from June 21

We are reviewing the information we provide on our website and therefore  are not updating the list of Identification Cases at present. If you wish to avoid presenting a case which has already been submitted by someone else, please do let reply with the grave reference and we'll check open cases for you. 

What a poor response and inefficient process - I suppose it keeps the customer service minions bods in a job [at what cost to the real purpose of CWGC?].

Same would seemingly apply for Non-Comm cases.

I have to think if they can't update the public list then I worry about their own internal list!

Putting obstructions in the way of proper commemorations = in my opinion, gone right downhill have the CWGC et al. 

M

Edited 22 August , 2023 by Matlock1418

[LDT006]

14 minutes ago, dickaren said:

We are reviewing the information we provide on our website

My personal opinion:

Publishing the open cases list has created some issues for CWGC: Anyone doing family research might find their ancestor in that list resulting in inquiries like when will this case be accepted? Do you have more details? Can I have the report? ........
Researchers might also inquire if a certain case is "good enough" because they might have more information so that it would be accepted

I think that they won't publish a recent list and even wonder why that list is still there.

PS: This topic, and others, have gone off-topic. Maybe it would be better if admin moves the posts to a new topic: something like CWGC issues?

Luc.

[Matlock1418]

23 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

Publishing the open cases list has created some issues for CWGC: Anyone doing family research might find their ancestor in that list resulting in inquiries like when will this case be accepted? Do you have more details? Can I have the report? ........
Researchers might also inquire if a certain case is "good enough" because they might have more information so that it would be accepted

I think that they won't publish a recent list and even wonder why that list is still there

Interesting points - So if not generally publicly-available ... Would seem to make better communications with, and communication channels for, those who have actually submitted cases for re-identification and new commemoration an even more urgent priority.

M

Edit:  I don't think they are subject to FOI [happy to be corrected] but they won't release those reports or deliberations even to those who have sumitted cases - so we can't mark audit their work. And I don't think they have an appeal process.

Edited 22 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[dickaren]

20 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

I think that they won't publish a recent list and even wonder why that list is still there.

I tend to agree with Luc and suspect the reply indicates that the list will not be updated.

Richard

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, dickaren said:

I tend to agree with Luc and suspect the reply indicates that the list will not be updated.

Have to confess ... I'm now resigning myself to the possibility that any updated list will not be made publicly-available. [Though once again the reply from CWGC does show them to be very tight-lipped, rather than open]

M

Edited 22 August , 2023 by Matlock1418

[LDT006]

My very own opinion on identifications of unknown WWI soldiers:

CWGC controls all cases and only passes the ones they want to JCCC for final adjucation.
There has only been one rededication service this year, it was accepted and planned to be held last year but postponed because the family couldn't attend. There is another one planned in September (case 450).
All the other ceremonies were burials of recently found remains, WWII cases and 2 Mis-Id cases.

So by the end of September only 1 case for unknowns will be removed from the open list this year. If they continue like this the backlog will explode exponentially.......

Am I the only one that has the impression that CWGC doesn't really care anymore for these identifications? Their main job is to maintain the cemeteries and make sure that everyone is commemorated on a headstone or memorial. They don't care which one?

My impression is that they want to fade this out, some researchers already said that they won't submit new cases anymore. I have some on my todo list but am hesitating to put time, effort and money for documents into them.

[jaykayu]

Many thanks to everyone for sharing their negative experiences here on dealing with CWGC and ideas addressing the problems - I too have similar issues.

I think that Mel’s suggestion of contacting the MP Commissioners is good, especially if a number of us do so with either A) each send a letter containing similar content to Mel’s suggestions above or we send one joint letter from us all  

I am happy to contribute & collaborate to agree what to say and deliver the message. E.g. I have data of every rededication service from March last year and how long that each respective case took from the date it was first presented to CWGC (date known or estimated) to the rededication service date. There were approx 52 UK soldier services to April this year with an average duration of 5 years and 4 months, which has steadily increased . Plus as Luc has just pointed out, there have been few new cases/services announced this year.and so this unnecessarily long average will dramatically increase further. 

I also have suggestions to add to Mel’s list of solutions, and am sure others will too.. 

Another tactic to consider if needed is that the CWGC, JCCC etc will not want another negative news story in the media; this one about the time taken to approve the identification of unknown soldiers graves nearly doubling, and that the dedicated volunteer researchers - the ONLY people that actively look to identify the UK & Commonwealth missing currently in unknown graves - get little so response to queries that help identify the missing that some are considering quitting!.

Personally, I have to fight this situation that has been deteriorating for years and is now too bad to be explained with excuses about the UK economy, recession etc.  It’s time to act. 

(As Luc suggested I also think an Admin should move this to a new CWGC Issues topic - thanks.)

Jay