Gloucestershire Regiment Cap badge, Other Ranks

[Phill Jones]

I am trying to ascertain which cap badge the above regiment used during WW1 , would it be brass or a shiny white metal type. 

TIA Phill Jones  

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, Phill Jones said:

I am trying to ascertain which cap badge the above regiment used during WW1 , would it be brass or a shiny white metal type. 

TIA Phill Jones  

It was a white metal cap badge Phill.  In 1916 a scheme was started to simplify badges by making them in all gilding metal (GM - brass mixed with zinc to create a robust alloy).  These are often described as ‘economy badges’, but the intent wasn’t so much to save money as to save time by simplification and so maximising production.  The badges affected were those ordinarily made of two metals (“bi-metal”) and single metal badges were to be unaffected.  Certainly Scottish regiments were not.  There are Gloucestershire Regiment badges made of GM, but I understand that these were post war restrikes and not genuine issue items.  You cannot go wrong with obtaining a white metal badge if you seek a genuine looking appearance. 

Edited 26 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Phill Jones]

Fantastic , Many Thanks 

[CorporalPunishment]

It should be borne in mind that the 4th Battalion (TF) wore blackened brass cap badges.       Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

It should be borne in mind that the 4th Battalion (TF) wore blackened brass cap badges.       Pete.

Yes and another TF battalion had a blank tablet beneath the Sphinx until 1916.  

[Phill Jones]

Many Thanks for your replies much appreciated 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Phill Jones said:

Many Thanks for your replies much appreciated 

Some typical badges.

Edited 26 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

Good evening,
Don't forget the back badge.
Here's one from the field:

 

in my collection :

regards

michel

[max7474]

On 26/07/2023 at 18:11, FROGSMILE said:

Yes and another TF battalion had a blank tablet beneath the Sphinx until 1916.  

I have photos of a relative who was in the 4th  in 1915 and the badges are clearly w/m.  It was the 5th Battalion who had the  pre 1908 2nd VB rifles lineage associated with black badges however there are period photos of them wearing w/m badges too.  However EJ Martin's article in the Badges of Territorial Infantry Battalions, 1908-22. An original article from the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, 1943 makes no mention of it at all and states all 3 Bn wore w/m badges with the blank plinth.  His articles were not always 100% and were corrected in later articles.  K&K's book state 4th wore BB and this has stuck.

Edited 30 July , 2023 by max7474

[max7474]

This Is Herbert Murless MM in 1915 prior to deploying to France.  He enlisted in the 4th TF Battalion and the badge is clearly wm.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, max7474 said:

I have photos of a relative who was in the 4th  in 1915 and the badges are clearly w/m.  It was the 5th Battalion who had the  pre 1908 2nd VB rifles lineage associated with black badges.  However EJ Martin's article in the Badges of Territorial Infantry Battalions, 1908-22. An original article from the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, 1943 makes no mention of it.  His articles were not always 100% and were corrected in later articles.  K&K's book state 4th wore BB and this has stuck.

That’s very interesting Max and it does appear as if the 4th and 5th battalion badges have been erroneously transposed I agree.  It’s only white metal badges that I’ve seen with blank scroll.

Edited 30 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

I have this one.  It is blackened brass and appears to be correct.

I have been looking at the Gloster VB badges for some time and whilst the 3rd VB used a bespoke version of a  full sized sphinx badge in w/m I  cannot find 1st or 2nd version of that type.  All I can find is this badge in BB which resembles a collar but with an added SA scroll so dates post 1905.  It is assumed that this was an FSC worn by 2VB.  If both the 1st and 2nd VBs wore Field Service Caps with collar badges (and later the SA scroll) then this might explain the absence of a full sized sphinx badge for them both.  Alas photos of the Gloster VB are scarce.  It would be nice to confirm this with a photo to determine what the lineage would have been for the TF Bns in WW1.

The VB FSC.

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, max7474 said:

I have this one.  It is blackened brass and appears to be correct.

I have been looking at the Gloster VB badges for some time and whilst the 3rd VB used a bespoke version of a  full sized sphinx badge in w/m I  cannot find 1st or 2nd version of that type.  All I can find is this badge in BB which resembles a collar but with an added SA scroll so dates post 1905.  It is assumed that this was an FSC worn by 2VB.  If both the 1st and 2nd VBs wore Field Service Caps with collar badges (and later the SA scroll) then this might explain the absence of a full sized sphinx badge for them both.  Alas photos of the Gloster VB are scarce.  It would be nice to confirm this with a photo to determine what the lineage would have been for the TF Bns in WW1.

The VB FSC.

I’m surprised that the correct situation hasn’t been clarified long before now by the regimental museum (when it was stand alone).

Hopefully we haven’t confused the original poster, Phill Jones, and he understands that the vast majority of Gloucestershire regimental badges were of white metal.

Edited 30 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m surprised that the correct situation hasn’t been clarified long before now by the regimental museum (when it was stand alone).

Hopefully we haven’t confused the original poster, Phill Jones, and he understands that the vast majority of Gloucestershire regimental badges were of white metal.

That is assuming there is anything for the museum to correct. The number of references to the 4th wearing blackened brass cap badges over so many years would surely have been noted long ago if it were incorrect. Just my opinion of course.       Pete.

[max7474]

Pete

 

Alas it only needs one person (K&K) to write it and it gets repeated by Gaylor in his book and suddenly it's 'fact'.  Gaylor lifted a lot of material from EJ Martin's many articles from the 1930's-50's (while sentences match) and other authors so his information is second hand at best rather than primary source.

Interestingly Bosleys always lists the BB ones as 5th and the w/m ones as 4th or 6th TF Bn.

Edited 30 July , 2023 by max7474

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

That is assuming there is anything for the museum to correct. The number of references to the 4th wearing blackened brass cap badges over so many years would surely have been noted long ago if it were incorrect. Just my opinion of course.       Pete.

I’ll take a look at the lineage laid down in ‘Tracing the Rifle Volunteers’ by Ray Westlake.  He lists all the VRC uniforms as at 1908 just before the TF was formed.  Whichever battalion wore rifle green and black buttons would surely be the one to carry forward a black cap badge.  That appears to have been a pretty much inviolate principle across the whole TF infantry corps. 

Edited 30 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ll take a look at the lineage laid down in ‘Riflemen Form’ by Ray Westlake.  He lists all the VRC uniforms as at 1908 just before the TF was formed.  Whichever battalion wore rifle green and black buttons would surely be the one to carry forward a black cap badge.  That appears to have been a pretty much inviolate principle across the whole TF infantry corps. 

That would be useful. I once found online the 1905  list of all VB Battalions who were awarded the SA honour but have misplaced the bookmark much to my annoyance.  I don't suppose you have a copy?

 

Bosley's attribute the black SA FSC to the 2nd VB.

Edited 30 July , 2023 by max7474

[FROGSMILE]

On 30/07/2023 at 11:12, max7474 said:

That would be useful. I once found online the 1905  list of all VB Battalions who were awarded the SA honour but have misplaced the bookmark much to my annoyance.  I don't suppose you have a copy?

 

Bosley's attribute the black SA FSC to the 2nd VB.

1st City of Bristol Volunteer Battalion green tunics with green facings and black badges and buttons plus special rifles designation.  Became 4th TF Battalion in 1908 carrying forward black badges with blank scrolls.

2nd Volunteer Battalion green tunics with red facings and black insignia similar to 60th Rifles (pouch belt plates silver though).  Became 5th TF Battalion with silver badges and blank scrolls adopted.  A special feature was woven cloth shoulder titles in 60th Rifles style colouration (red lettering).

3rd Volunteer Battalion most unusual having adopted khaki tunics with red facings and tall slouch hats following the Boer War, though cap badges were silver.  See photo below.  Became 6th TF Battalion with silver badges and blank scrolls adopted.

 I don’t have the list of SA honours you mentioned but forum friend @Waggoner maybe has it or will probably know someone who does.

 

Edited 9 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

That's interesting and as the photo of Herbert shows either the BB ones were only on green hats or they had dropped them by WW1.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, max7474 said:

That's interesting and as the photo of Herbert shows either the BB ones were only on green hats or they had dropped them by WW1.

I think it’s possible they were only worn on rifle green forage caps, there were several London Regiment rifles units that chose to wear silver badges on such caps but black on drab SD.  Every unit seemed to have their idiosyncrasies as you know.

Theres no sign of evidence that any of the Gloucestershires TF battalions wore black buttons with service dress.  Ergo it seems possible that black insignia was only worn on pre war rifle green caps and uniform.  There is some confusing and conflicting evidence concerning cloth shoulder titles too and I continue to think that the museum should be able to throw more light on matters. 

Edited 30 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Phill Jones]

Thank you once again for your replies to a most interesting topic .

[mark holden]

On 26/07/2023 at 15:28, FROGSMILE said:

It was a white metal cap badge Phill.  In 1916 a scheme was started to simplify badges by making them in all gilding metal (GM - brass mixed with zinc to create a robust alloy).  These are often described as ‘economy badges’, but the intent wasn’t so much to save money as to save time by simplification and so maximising production.  The badges affected were those ordinarily made of two metals (“bi-metal”) and single metal badges were to be unaffected.  Certainly Scottish regiments were not.  There are Gloucestershire Regiment badges made of GM, but I understand that these were post war restrikes and not genuine issue items.  You cannot go wrong with obtaining a white metal badge if you seek a genuine looking appearance. 

I believe the Royal Scots were the only Scottish regiment to have an officially approved economy issue badge. The Black Watch of Canada also wore a GM badge.

 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, mark holden said:

I believe the Royal Scots were the only Scottish regiment to have an officially approved economy issue badge. The Black Watch of Canada also wore a GM badge.

 

I must admit I didn’t consider Canadian units as ‘Scottish’, especially given the Gloucestershire Regiment subject that was under consideration.  The all-brass list is controversial, as different studies seem to say different things.  My earliest reference by John Gaylor refers to a non-official list compiled by a group of collectors in 1965 as apparently including the HLI and Gordon and Cameron Highlanders, as well as the Royal Scots.  I vaguely recall an official WO List being uncovered, but am unsure.  It’s not really a rabbit hole I want to go down in this thread, but perhaps a new one can be opened to get to the bottom of it.

Edited 2 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

There has been research done through the ACD records that has produced a list of designs approved by the ACD to be made in all brass.  It has been published in the Military Historical Society;'s journal and is much shorter than Gaylor's list which reading between the lines even Gaylor knew was an incorrect list when he published it.  

There was an all brass  BW and an all brass Seaforths but as stated above they were Canadian units.

 

Any all brass Gloster is likely to be a BB one that has lost its blacking or more likely a repro.  

Edited 2 August , 2023 by max7474

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, max7474 said:

There has been research done through the ACD records that has produced a list of designs approved by the ACD to be made in all brass.  It has been published in the Military Historical Society;'s journal and is much shorter than Gaylor's list which reading between the lines even Gaylor knew was an incorrect list when he published it.  

There was an all brass  BW and an all brass Seaforths but as stated above they were Canadian units.

 

Any all brass Gloster is likely to be a BB one that has lost its blacking or more likely a repro.  

Thanks Max, what you’ve outlined is what I’d been referring to earlier in the thread concerning Scottish badges, but I can’t remember where I saw and read the list that you refer to.

Edited 2 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE