Samsons 'Dunkirk Circus' (1914-15) Nominal Roll

[kenf48]

35 minutes ago, Clive ex RAF plumber said:

 

Please accept my apologies Clive PS Have you amalgamated the posts or do you want me to delete one?

No apology necessary I've merged them and both posts are now under the 'Dunkirk' title. It is rather a blunt instrument but hopefully your thread(s) still make sense.

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

No apology necessary I've merged them and both posts are now under the 'Dunkirk' title. It is rather a blunt instrument but hopefully your thread(s) still make sense.

Thank you so much, lesson learnt, hope I didn't cause to many problems. Regards Clive

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

As this topic draws to a natural close I would like to take this opportunity to thank all members of the Great War Forum who have read the post and especially those who have taken the time and effort to respond and provide me with so much useful information and educate me on the subject.  The books I was recommended to read have now started to arrive and I am looking forward to reading them and learning more about the achievements of the RNAS, RND and RM's during this period of the Great War in France and Belgium.  I realise I will never know what work CPO Grady was employed on but he obviously played his part in the achievements of the Eastchurch Squadron and we owe all those involved in whatever capacity in the Great War our gratitude for there sacrifice in the service of our great country.  Thanks to you all once again and kind regards Clive     

[KizmeRD]

At the time he took his RAeC (in Oct 1913) he was still a P.O. (flying a M.Farman at the Central Flying School at Upavon - Cert 672)

and by the time he died in July 1918 he had become a Second Lieutenant (having been a WO before that).

Seems a bit disrespectful to always be referring to him as CPO Grady - he was only CPO during the period Jan 1915 to June 1917.

MB

 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

At the time he took his RAeC (in Oct 1913) he was still a P.O. (flying a M.Farman at the Central Flying School at Upavon - Cert 672)

and by the time he died in July 1918 he had become a Second Lieutenant (having been a WO before that).

Seems a bit disrespectful to always be referring to him as CPO Grady - he was only CPO during the period Jan 1915 to June 1917.

MB

 

The only reason I referred to him as a CPO is that the period of his military service I am trying to research is 1914-15 and therefore any references to him in documents would quote that rank. No disrespect whatsoever to 2nd Lt J. F. Grady was intended. Clive 

[KizmeRD]

During PO(M)/CPO Grady’s time in France at the start of the war, I can’t imagine him being employed in any capacity other than that of an aircraft engine maintainer with No.3 Squadron at St.Pol. It would have been a criminal waste of such a well trained and experienced resource (who even held a RAeC pilot certificate) to work on anything that was not directly aviation related. For that reason, I’d be very surprised if he’d been one of the RNAS ratings assigned to support the armoured car operations.

MB

Edited 26 July , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

9 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

During PO(M)/CPO Grady’s time in France at the start of the war, I can’t imagine him being employed in any capacity other than that of an aircraft engine maintainer with No.3 Squadron at St.Pol. It would have been a criminal waste of such a well trained and experienced resource (who even held a RAeC pilot certificate) to work on anything that was not directly aviation related. For that reason, I’d be very surprised if he’d been one of the RNAS ratings assigned to support the armoured car operations.

MB

 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

Thank you for that it concurs with my own thoughts on the subject being ex-RAF myself I definitely would not have employed someone with his skills and experience on armoured car operations. I was reading 'A history of the RNAS in the Great War' last night and the aircraft engineers and maintainers on 3 Squadron were in a lot of instances very close to the fighting and obviously fulfilled a very demanding role in extremely  difficult and dangerous conditions. Kind Regards Clive 

[horatio2]

I think you are both under-estimating SAMSON’s innovative use of his assets in aircraft, cars and men.

As early as 4 September, he records his first “fight with motor cars” - a Maxim-fitted Mercedes and a Rolls Royce – in a chapter he entitles “The Third ‘Battle’ of Cassel”. SAMSON was accompanied by three officers and in his ‘fighting force’ he names four ratings. The 3 Squadron officers were an RNAS pilot and two RNVR officers (including Samson’s brother). The RNAS ratings were a CPO Mech (formerly armourer’s mate RN), a PO Mech (formerly leading shipwright RN), two Aircaft Mechanics 1^st Class (formerly an able seaman and a stoker RN). To add to the mixture he also took along his “servant” a Leading Mechanic (formerly private RMLI).

The latter, John Edmonds, was also a qualified pilot (30 July 1912)who had flown many hours at Eastchurch, including as part of “Their Majesties’ Aerial Escort” on 21 April 1914. His flying is mentioned in ‘The Aeroplane’ magazine on several occasions in 1913-14.

With this party (most carried rifles) Samson attacked a German column. A couple of days later, in what he called “The Occupation of Lille”, Samson deplotyed a force of “four motors, three of them armed with machine guns, six officers, ten of my own men and four Frenchmen). Samson’s air assets were integrated into the operation. As Samson noted: “There seemed great possibilities in this combination of aeroplane and car.”

There is ample evidence that Samson was a master of ‘mix-and-match’ when deciding what manpower/aeroplane/motor car assets should be best deployed and where. A Petty officer Mechanic (Pilot) like Grady could be employed on aircraft, as a motor car driver/mechanic and even as an armoured car machine gunner or rifleman and it is quite likely that he was used in more than one role. That was Samson’s genius in pioneering integrated air-ground military operations. A reading of Part I of his “Fights and Flights” shows how he used men in their best capacity and that he was quite prepared to “imagine” employing them other than strictly by their naval trade.

PS  It is also of note that Grady qualified for the Clasp to the 1914 Star (under enemy fire) by dint of service at Antwerp, Douai or Ypres. So he could not have been employed solely at Dunkirk/St Pol (where service did not qualify for the Clasp).

Edited 27 July , 2023 by horatio2

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

2 hours ago, horatio2 said:

I think you are both under-estimating SAMSON’s innovative use of his assets in aircraft, cars and men.

As early as 4 September, he records his first “fight with motor cars” - a Maxim-fitted Mercedes and a Rolls Royce – in a chapter he entitles “The Third ‘Battle’ of Cassel”. SAMSON was accompanied by three officers and in his ‘fighting force’ he names four ratings. The 3 Squadron officers were an RNAS pilot and two RNVR officers (including Samson’s brother). The RNAS ratings were a CPO Mech (formerly armourer’s mate RN), a PO Mech (formerly leading shipwright RN), two Aircaft Mechanics 1^st Class (formerly an able seaman and a stoker RN). To add to the mixture he also took along his “servant” a Leading Mechanic (formerly private RMLI).

The latter, John Edmonds, was also a qualified pilot (30 July 1912)who had flown many hours at Eastchurch, including as part of “Their Majesties’ Aerial Escort” on 21 April 1914. His flying is mentioned in ‘The Aeroplane’ magazine on several occasions in 1913-14.

With this party (most carried rifles) Samson attacked a German column. A couple of days later, in what he called “The Occupation of Lille”, Samson deplotyed a force of “four motors, three of them armed with machine guns, six officers, ten of my own men and four Frenchmen). Samson’s air assets were integrated into the operation. As Samson noted: “There seemed great possibilities in this combination of aeroplane and car.”

There is ample evidence that Samson was a master of ‘mix-and-match’ when deciding what manpower/aeroplane/motor car assets should be best deployed and where. A Petty officer Mechanic (Pilot) like Grady could be employed on aircraft, as a motor car driver/mechanic and even as an armoured car machine gunner or rifleman and it is quite likely that he was used in more than one role. That was Samson’s genius in pioneering integrated air-ground military operations. A reading of Part I of his “Fights and Flights” shows how he used men in their best capacity and that he was quite prepared to “imagine” employing them other than strictly by their naval trade.

PS  It is also of note that Grady qualified for the Clasp to the 1914 Star (under enemy fire) by dint of service at Antwerp, Douai or Ypres. So he could not have been employed solely at Dunkirk/St Pol (where service did not qualify for the Clasp).

Thanks for that Horatio 2, I did wonder about his being awarded the clasp, still awaiting the arrival of 'Fights and Flights'.  Is it true they had detachments of RNAS airman outside Antwerp to refuel the aircraft returning from bombing the Zeppelin sheds?  Is it 'Captain' Samson, he must have been one heck of a courageous, innovative and inspirational leader.  Kind Regards Clive       

[KizmeRD]

After successfully bombing the Zeppelin shed in Düsseldorf, Reggie Marix’s aircraft ran out of fuel on the return journey before making it back to Antwerp, so he eventually got there by train and then from Antwerp by car to Ostend. Aircraft belonging to the squadron made forced landings all over the surrounding countryside, so it was not that unusual for a Petty Officer Mechanic to be dispatched from the aerodrome in a car in order to transport and fit spare parts, or see whether mobile repairs were possible so as to recover the aircraft.

MB

 

Edited 27 July , 2023 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

A pertinent example of how men were ‘mis-employed’ by Samson can be found in PO Mech Philip E BATEMAN. His service closely mirrors Grady’s.

Joining as a boy seaman, like PO Grady, Leading Seaman Bateman also qualified as a pilot at Upavon but seven months earlier, on 1 April 1913, and was rated PO Mechanic. The same argument for their ‘obvious’ employment at St Pol for their POM skills can be made for both men. In fact we know for certain how Bateman was employed because Samson records that he was in hot action at Antwerp with the armoured cars.

It is also worth noting that the RNAS rating of ‘mechanic’ does not always carry with it in-depth technical knowledge of aircraft and/or engines. Dozens of men were entered into the RNAS with scant technical training. Some, as Samson records, were “very highly skilled motor mechanics and testers from Rolls Royce, Wolseley and Talbot motor car firms”. Many men entered as drivers had only d-i-y experience as motor fitters.

The same applied to aircraft e mechanics. RN artificers and shipwrights brought a high level of technical competence into the RNAS but the same cannot be said of ex- seaman ratings like Grady (ex-torpedo man) and Bateman (ex-seaman gunner) who picked up technical skills on-the-job alongside their piloting skills. The pre-war years were marked by a very steep learning process. Descriptions of such former seamen as “well trained and experienced” may be over-stating the reality. Everybody was learning and technical knowledge had to be shared between aircraft and armoured cars as required by Samson’s concept of operations.

[KizmeRD]

It’s been interesting discovering that there were a good number of PO(M)’s in the RNAS who were given the opportunity to qualify as Class 2 Pilots. Presumably it was useful in a squadron to have a few mechanics around who were properly competent in starting-up the engines and  testing out the equipment, without the need to call upon one of the Squadron (Class 1) Pilots.

And one could also be forgiven in thinking that most of what the RNAS got up to during WW1 invariably involved Samson in one way or another!

MB

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

After successfully bombing the Zeppelin shed in Düsseldorf, Reggie Marix’s aircraft ran out of fuel on the return journey before making it back to Antwerp, so he eventually got there by train and then from Antwerp by car to Ostend. Aircraft belonging to the squadron made forced landings all over the surrounding countryside, so it was not that unusual for a Petty Officer Mechanic to be dispatched from the aerodrome in a car in order to transport and fit spare parts, or see whether mobile repairs were possible so as to recover the aircraft.

MB

 

I take it that was one of the many reasons for having 'armoured cars' due to aircraft having to force land all over the place due to mechanical failures it being the very early days of aircraft and flying.

[horatio2]

5 minutes ago, Clive ex RAF plumber said:

I take it that was one of the many reasons for having 'armoured cars' due to aircraft having to force land all over the place due to mechanical failures it being the very early days of aircraft and flying.

Not just to provide a rescue service for downed aircraft but importantly, as you will read, to conduct offensive operrations against the German Army.

Edited 27 July , 2023 by horatio2

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

40 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

A pertinent example of how men were ‘mis-employed’ by Samson can be found in PO Mech Philip E BATEMAN. His service closely mirrors Grady’s.

Joining as a boy seaman, like PO Grady, Leading Seaman Bateman also qualified as a pilot at Upavon but seven months earlier, on 1 April 1913, and was rated PO Mechanic. The same argument for their ‘obvious’ employment at St Pol for their POM skills can be made for both men. In fact we know for certain how Bateman was employed because Samson records that he was in hot action at Antwerp with the armoured cars.

It is also worth noting that the RNAS rating of ‘mechanic’ does not always carry with it in-depth technical knowledge of aircraft and/or engines. Dozens of men were entered into the RNAS with scant technical training. Some, as Samson records, were “very highly skilled motor mechanics and testers from Rolls Royce, Wolseley and Talbot motor car firms”. Many men entered as drivers had only d-i-y experience as motor fitters.

The same applied to aircraft e mechanics. RN artificers and shipwrights brought a high level of technical competence into the RNAS but the same cannot be said of ex- seaman ratings like Grady (ex-torpedo man) and Bateman (ex-seaman gunner) who picked up technical skills on-the-job alongside their piloting skills. The pre-war years were marked by a very steep learning process. Descriptions of such former seamen as “well trained and experienced” may be over-stating the reality. Everybody was learning and technical knowledge had to be shared between aircraft and armoured cars as required by Samson’s concept of operations.

Perhaps a totally un-related remark but your reply regarding the use of personnel in the armoured cars reminded me of my time as an armourer on a RAF Regiment Squadron in the early 70's in Northern Ireland every time the Squadron WO rostered me to go out on patrol he would say 'You are a soldier first and a tradesman second' possibly not as politely as that though. Regards Clive      

3 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Not just to provide a rescue service for downed aircraft but importantly, as you will read, to conduct offensive operrations against the German Army.

I am so pleased I ordered a copy of Fights and Flights.

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

14 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

It’s been interesting discovering that there were a good number of PO(M)’s in the RNAS who were given the opportunity to qualify as Class 2 Pilots. Presumably it was useful in a squadron to have a few mechanics around who were properly competent in starting-up the engines and  testing out the equipment, without the need to call upon one of the Squadron (Class 1) Pilots.

And one could also be forgiven in thinking that most of what the RNAS got up to during WW1 invariably involved Samson in one way or another!

MB 2

I understand that WO / 2nd Lt Grady became a 1st Class pilot in 1917? and on his confidential report it states 'Is eminently suited for gunnery work.  Is a first class pilot. I am urgently in need of his services (12.7.17) and 'A hard working reliable pilot on school machines (31.12.17).  His service record states 23.6.17 appointed WO2 Eastchurch General Duties is that the date he qualified as a 1st Class Pilot?  Didn't realise until the other day that there was such a thing as 1st and 2nd Class Pilots. I have definitely learnt a great deal from you gentlemen from this post.  Many thanks     

[horatio2]

5 minutes ago, Clive ex RAF plumber said:

His service record states 23.6.17 appointed WO2 Eastchurch General Duties is that the date he qualified as a 1st Class Pilot? 

Around that date. The second page of his ADM 188 record notes 1st Class Pilot 23.6.17 (last entry in 'Discharged ....' column) and the second page of his ADM 173 RNAS record indictes that he may have so qualifed at RNAS Cranwell (HMS DAEDALUS). [Not 100% certain]

[KizmeRD]

 

Eastchurch (Mobile) Squadron originally formed 8 August 1914 with 6 pilots. Bell-Davies, Dalrymple-Clark, Briggs, Sippe, Samson (Commanding Officer) and Beever. The squadron was equipped with Short S38, BE2a, TB8, Sopwith Tractor and DFW aircraft. It set itself up at Ostend Racecourse on 27 August 1914 becoming the first RNAS squadron to deploy in WW1 and formally became No.3 Squadron when it moved to St Pol on 1st September 1914.

The initial object of the deployment was reconnaissance of ‘an area of about 30 miles around Ostend and to attack any enemy aircraft found, in support of the Marine brigade which had been landed there. After moving to St Pol the squadron’s aircraft were used to watch for any movement of German troops in the general area of Lille, Douai, Cambrai, Amiens and Arras. 

The development of Samson’s armoured car idea really came about as an attempt to compensate for the lack of British aircraft. Armoured  plates were fitted on Rolls Royce Silver Ghost vehicles for protection together with a 7.62 mm Maxim machine gun. By this means they provided an additional method of conducting armed reconnaissance.

At the beginning of September Samson was also ordered to operate against Zeppelins. This led to the raid in which Zeppelin LZ25 (Z.IX) was destroyed in its shed at Düsseldorf by RNAS Sopwith Tabloid flown by Flight Lieutenant Reginald Marix (9 October 1914).

MB

 

Edited 27 July , 2023 by KizmeRD