Samsons 'Dunkirk Circus' (1914-15) Nominal Roll

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

Can anyone advise me on where I can find information on 3 Sqn RNAS Dunkerque 1914 & 3 Wing RNAS. I have recently acquired a 1914 Star & bar trio to James Fraser Grady RNAS born 1880 who obtained his flying certificate in November 1913 and went to France with 3 squadron RNAS in 1914 sadly he was killed in a flying accident in 1918 in the UK. I know very little about the RNAS, have concentrated more on the history of the RFC but would love to piece together the story of this gentleman's service in the Great War and learn more about the role of the RNAS and how many pilots they had in France in 1914 etc.. Can anyone provide me with information and/or advise me on which books can provide me with this information. Many thanks Clive

Also posted this question on The Aerodrome forum - not as though it is a competition.  

 

[horatio2]

An interesting RN/RNAS career from Boy 2nd Class to Warrant Officer 2nd Class, transferring to 2/Lt RAF. He was the 96th RN (and the 31st rating)to obtain a pilot's licence.

Before getting down into the weeds of RNAS numbers, I strongly recommand that you read the memoir of the CO of 3 Squadron and 3 Wing:  "Fights and Flights" by Charles Rumney SAMSON. (1930)

Part I Covers August to November 1914, imncluding armoured car operations and the Defence of Antwerp; Part II covers France from November 1914 to February 1915; Part III covers operations at the Daedanelles March to December 1915 but GRADY did not serve rthere.

Edited 23 July , 2023 by horatio2

[horatio2]

His records (if not already held)  are here (free download from TNA):-

ADM 188 RN and RNAS rating service   -   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7142895       

ADM 273 RNAS WO service (incorrectly named as JamesFrederick   -   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9750743

AIR 76RAF and RNAS records   -   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8265571

His RAF Museum Casualty Card   -   https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000272244-grady-j.f.-james-fraser

 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

That is brilliant Horatio2 will now try and get a copy of Fights and Fights (wish me luck) thank you so much for the information. Many thanks Clive 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

Hi Horatio2,  Just re-read your reply and note Grady did not serve in the Dardanelles I have printed off copies of his service record but cannot work out where he served after 3 Squadron in 1914-15 have you any idea? Have managed to order a copy of Fights and Flights.  You obviously have a lot of knowledge on the RNAS, did you see my previous post on Thomas Bushby? Thanks once again Clive     

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

Hi Horatio2 Afraid I quoted the wrong name it is F1855 Thomas Busby DSM

[MikeW]

Clive,

I see that somebody on the other forum recommended my books covering Naval 10 and Naval 6, whilst flattered, I have to tell you that they won't help here.

The early days of the version of 3 Squadron that you need will be very difficult, it's probably best to say they did a bit of everything, the 1st RNAS Squadrons were not specialised - this squadron "turned" into 3 Wing on 21/6/1915 when at Tenedos but I see that it has already been mentioned that Grady didn't serve in the Dardanelles. Just to probably confuse you, this 3 Wing disbanded and turned into 2 Wing on 18/1/1916. A brand New and totally unrelated 3 Wing was then formed on 28/4/1916  to carry out strategic bombing at Luxeuil and Ochey during  late 1916 and early 1917.

 

Mike

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, Clive ex RAF plumber said:

cannot work out where he served after 3 Squadron in 1914-15

Difficult to be 100% certain because his ADM 188 record as a rating is a bit messy and, does not list squadrons, only the ships where he was borne for pay. My best interpretation is that he was borne on the books of PRESIDENT serving as a a PO Mechanic from (at latest) 3 October 1914, with 3 Squadron in the BEF. Advanced to CPO Mech 3rd Grade from 1 January 1915, he probably left 3 Squadron as it departed for the Dardanelles in late March 1915. From 1 April 1915, when men of the RNAS were being moved from the books of HMS PEMBROKE III [at Chatham] to PRESIDENT II [in central London], he was serving at RNAS Eastchurch. He served there until 22 June 1917 when he was promoted to Warrant Officer 2 and transferred to the books of HMSDAEDALUS. He then served continuously at Eastchurch until his fatal RAF accident in July 1918.

1 hour ago, Clive ex RAF plumber said:

F1855 Thomas Busby DSM

Nothing to add to earlier topic discussion.

Edited 23 July , 2023 by horatio2

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

18 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Clive,

I see that somebody on the other forum recommended my books covering Naval 10 and Naval 6, whilst flattered, I have to tell you that they won't help here.

The early days of the version of 3 Squadron that you need will be very difficult, it's probably best to say they did a bit of everything, the 1st RNAS Squadrons were not specialised - this squadron "turned" into 3 Wing on 21/6/1915 when at Tenedos but I see that it has already been mentioned that Grady didn't serve in the Dardanelles. Just to probably confuse you, this 3 Wing disbanded and turned into 2 Wing on 18/1/1916. A brand New and totally unrelated 3 Wing was then formed on 28/4/1916  to carry out strategic bombing at Luxeuil and Ochey during  late 1916 and early 1917.

 

Mike

 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

Mike, Thank you so much for the information, it would appear I have quite a lot of reading to do on the RNAS, as I type there are a few books winging there way to me from Amazon.  As I said earlier my knowledge of the RNAS is sparse I have tended to concentrate more on the RFC. Looking forward to learning more. Thanks once again and kind regards Clive 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

24 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Difficult to be 100% certain because his ADM 188 record as a rating is a bit messy and, does not list squadrons, only the ships where he was borne for pay. My best interpretation is that he was borne on the books of PRESIDENT serving as a a PO Mechanic from (at latest) 3 October 1914, with 3 Squadron in the BEF. Advanced to CPO Mech 3rd Grade from 1 January 1915, he probably left 3 Squadron as it departed for the Dardanelles in late March 1915. From 1 April 1915, when men of the RNAS were being moved from the books of HMS PEMBROKE III [at Chatham] to PRESIDENT II [in central London], he was serving at RNAS Eastchurch. He served there until 22 June 1917 when he was promoted to Warrant Officer 2 and transferred to the books of HMSDAEDALUS. He then served continuously at Eastchurch until his fatal RAF accident in July 1918.

Nothing to add to earlier topic discussion.

 

Thanks once again for the information it has been a great help. Kind Regards Clive 

[horatio2]

@Clive ex RAF plumber. You asked about RNAS numbers in the BEF in 1914. The 1914 Star Roll shows 435 Stars (of which about 90 were to officers) were issued to the RNAS (195 with the Clasp).

In November 1917 Cdr SAMSON wrote the following letter as a submission for the award of the 1914 Star to officers and men under his command. It summarises the period in France and Flanders between August 1914 and February 1915.

" I have the honour ro request that I may be informed if the Officers and men who served under my command in Aeroplanes and Armoured Motor Cars in Flanders and France from August 27th 1914 until February 28th 1915 are entitled to receive the Bronze Decoration that is being awarded to the Army. My Command [3 Sqn] was attached to and under the orders of General Sir H. Rawlinson on the days of the retreat from Ostend to Ypres [mid October 1914], and was attached to the Fourth Army Corps, and present at Ypres during the whole of the First Battle of Ypres [19 Oct - 22 Nov 1914].

I was afterwards attached to Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig at Ypres and we went rhrough all the fighting there until we returned to Dunkirk in December 1914.

Before we joined the Fourth Army Corps, I was with General Aston [Royal Marines Briogade] at Ostend, and was afrterwards attached to the French Army at Dunkirk and Douai, after that with Marines at Antwerp until Antwerp fell [10 October 1914]."

We know from his 1914 Star Roll entry that POM GRADY was qualified by his service in 3 Squadron and at Antwerp and Dunkirk and the above letter (plus the "Fights and Flights" narrative) gives some dating evidence which is absent from his record.

I do not believe GRADY was employed in 3 Squadron as a pilot.

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

9 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

@Clive ex RAF plumber. You asked about RNAS numbers in the BEF in 1914. The 1914 Star Roll shows 435 Stars (of which about 90 were to officers) were issued to the RNAS (195 with the Clasp).

In November 1917 Cdr SAMSON wrote the following letter as a submission for the award of the 1914 Star to officers and men under his command. It summarises the period in France and Flanders between August 1914 and February 1915.

" I have the honour ro request that I may be informed if the Officers and men who served under my command in Aeroplanes and Armoured Motor Cars in Flanders and France from August 27th 1914 until February 28th 1915 are entitled to receive the Bronze Decoration that is being awarded to the Army. My Command [3 Sqn] was attached to and under the orders of General Sir H. Rawlinson on the days of the retreat from Ostend to Ypres [mid October 1914], and was attached to the Fourth Army Corps, and present at Ypres during the whole of the First Battle of Ypres [19 Oct - 22 Nov 1914].

I was afterwards attached to Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig at Ypres and we went rhrough all the fighting there until we returned to Dunkirk in December 1914.

Before we joined the Fourth Army Corps, I was with General Aston [Royal Marines Briogade] at Ostend, and was afrterwards attached to the French Army at Dunkirk and Douai, after that with Marines at Antwerp until Antwerp fell [10 October 1914]."

We know from his 1914 Star Roll entry that POM GRADY was qualified by his service in 3 Squadron and at Antwerp and Dunkirk and the above letter (plus the "Fights and Flights" narrative) gives some dating evidence which is absent from his record.

I do not believe GRADY was employed in 3 Squadron as a pilot.

Thanks for the above, cannot wait for Fights and Flights to arrive sounds as though they had an interesting time of it.  I suppose with this passage of time it will be impossible to find out what POM Grady was employed on in France, I believe 3 Squadron had a severe shortage of aircraft at this stage in the war so he most likely wasn't employed as a pilot. I wonder if he did any operational flying during the war?  My Great Uncle 2n Lt. Charles Waine was a pilot in the latter stages of the war at Westward Ho I believe on submarine patrols did Eastchurch fulfill a similar function or was it purely a training establishment? So many questions but that's what makes the subject so interesting. Thanks once again Kind Regards Clive    

[horatio2]

Employment is usually difficult to determine and RNAS records are rarely specific. PO GRADY was a Pilot 2nd Class from November 1913. He was not re-graded to Pilot 1st Class until 23 June 1917, when he was promoted to Warrant Officer 2. His employment as a pilot in 3 Squadron is very unlikely. It is probable that he was employed in his technical trade as a PO/CPO Mechanic. As you will read in "Fights and Flights", SAMSON's men were variously emplyed on all mannerof exciting air-ground taks and it is possible that GRADY was involved with the Armoured Motor Cars. There is no evidence.

RNAS Eastchurch was opened in early 1911 (the first RN Air Station) as a flying school. During WW1 it was the base for a varietyRNAS units, many associated with various aspects of aviation training. (The interweb/wiki has plenty more.)

It is probable that GRADY resumed a flying role as a CPO Mech/Pilot 2nd Class. at Eastchurch, probably in one of the training schools, between March 1915 and June 1917. On promotion to Warrant Officer/Pilot 1st Class RNAS (later 2/Lt RAF)he seems to have continued flying at Eastchurch and at the time of his fatal accident he was serving in theSchool of Aerial Gunnery & Bombing. 

Edited 24 July , 2023 by horatio2

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

3 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Employment is usually difficult to determine and RNAS records are rarely specific. PO GRADY was a Pilot 2nd Class from November 1913. He was not re-graded to Pilot 1st Class until 23 June 1917, when he was promoted to Warrant Officer 2. His employment as a pilot in 3 Squadron is very unlikely. It is probable that he was employed in his technical trade as a PO/CPO Mechanic. As you will read in "Fights and Flights", SAMSON's men were variously emplyed on all mannerof exciting air-ground taks and it is possible that GRADY was involved with the Armoured Motor Cars. There is no evidence.

RNAS Eastchurch was opened in early 1911 (the first RN Air Station) as a flying school. During WW1 it was the base for a varietyRNAS units, many associated with various aspects of aviation training. (The interweb/wiki has plenty more.)

It is probable that GRADY resumed a flying role as a CPO Mech/Pilot 2nd Class. at Eastchurch, probably in one of the training schools, between March 1915 and June 1917. On promotion to Warrant Officer/Pilot 2nd Class RNAS (later 2/Lt RAF)he seems to have continued flying at Eastchurch and at the time of his fatal accident he was serving in theSchool of Aerial Gunnery & Bombing. 

Thanks for all the information will look up RNAS Eastchurch on the internet, so sad that he died so soon after marrying in July 1917. Kind Regards Clive 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

I believe 150 men from 3 squadron served in what was known as the 'Dunkirk Circus' in Armoured Cars I am trying to ascertain whether CPO James Fraser Grady was part of this group and was therefore wondering if anyone knows if there is a nominal roll of this unit? Many thanks Clive

[horatio2]

34 minutes ago, Clive ex RAF plumber said:

known as the 'Dunkirk Circus' in Armoured Cars

I think you are mis-naming the force of (originally 150) RMLI NCOs and men who were familiarly known as the "Motor Bandits". Arriving at Dunkirk on 11 September 1914 from Chatham thy were bsed at RNAS St Pol under SAMSON's operational command. During the Bandits' operations they were frequently accompanied by SAMSON's 3 Squadron RNAS ratings on an ad hoc basis. These ratings provided motor maintenance as well as extra rifles.

See Chapter 10 of the following link for the Motor Bandits' story. There is no "nominal roll" but nsames of the participants can b found in the 1914 Star Roll (Armoured Car Section attached RNAS).

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=1up&seq=150&skin=2021  (To be read alongside "Fights and Flights" for the full context.)

Edited 25 July , 2023 by horatio2

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

25 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

I think you are mis-naming the force of (originally 150) RMLI NCOs and men who were familiarly known as the "Motor Bandits". Arriving at Dunkirk on 11 September 1914 from Chatham thy were bsed at RNAS St Pol under SAMSON's operational command. During the Bandits' operations they were frequently accompanied by SAMSON's 3 Squadron RNAS ratings on an ad hoc basis. These ratings provided motor maintenance as well as extra rifles.

See Chapter 10 of the following link for the Motor Bandits' story. There is no "nominal roll" but nsames of the participants can b found in the 1914 Star Roll (Armoured Car Section attached RNAS).

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=1up&seq=150&skin=2021  (To be read alongside "Fights and Flights" for the full context.)

 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

Hello Again, I do apologise on getting it wrong I got the name from a book I saw on Amazon called 'Dunkirk Circus - 3 Squadron RNAS 1914-15' by John Jonah Oliver and wrongly assumed that was the name given to those ratings from 3 Squadron who served with the Armoured Cars. I have an awful lot to learn on the history of 3 squadron in 1914-15   - please don't agree ha! ha! regards Clive. PS Have just received 'The Royal Navy's Air Service in the Great War' by David Hobbs, hopefully 'Fights and Flights' won't be long now.

[KizmeRD]

P.O.(M) J.F. Grady 187748 (No. 3 Squadron, Dunkirk) is listed under RNAS (vol. 1) of the 1914 Star Medal Roll.

He was subsequently promoted CPO and WO2 and became a 2nd Lt in RAF (Eastchurch Gunnery School).

Died 19.7.18.* Medals issued to Widow.

MB

East Kent Gazette - Saturday 27 July 1918
FATAL COLLISION AT AN AERODROME.
FOUR LIVES LOST.

An inquest was held on Monday, by Mr. C. B. Harris, county coroner, with reference to the deaths of three officers and a mechanic, who lost their lives as a result of a collision in the air at a Kent aerodrome on Friday.

Lieut. Charles Edgar Swannell, 26, a Canadian, and Lieut. Richard Milne Collingwood, 21, had been up for a flight, and were slowly descending, when another machine, in which were 2nd Lieut. James Fraser Grady, 38, and Boy Mechanic Leonard George Henry Samson, 17, were ascending for gunnery practice. When 100ft. from the ground the machines came into collision, and one turned turtle and caught on fire. Both crashed to the ground, and all four occupants were killed, all from fractured skulls.

A verdict of "Accidental Death" in each case was returned, and the jury expressed their sympathy with the bereaved relatives.

Lieut. Collingwood was a son of Captain Collingwood, who holds an important post at another aerodrome in the county. 2nd Lieut. Grady belonged to Gillingham, and Samson, the young mechanic, lived in London.

Edited 25 July , 2023 by KizmeRD

[KizmeRD]

J.F. Grady - Details of Naval Service
Listed as a message boy when he joined RN 31.3.1901.
1.11.1913 Central Flying School, Upavon, Wiltshire
1..9.1914. Dunkirk Air Station, Nord, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France. (No.3 Squadron RNAS).
15 July 1917 • Air Station, Eastchurch, Isle of Sheppey, Kent (married)
15 July 1918 • Air Gunnery School, Royal Air Force, Eastchurch.

Commissioned 2nd Lieutenant RNAS. RNAS converted to RAF on 1 April 1918, when the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service amalgamated to form the Royal Air Force. 
Killed along with his boy mechanic Leonard H. Sampson when their Maurice Farman S.11 Shorthorn Bi-plane, serial number N5063, was ascending and collided with a descending Avro 504J Serial B8585 flown by RAF Lieutenant Richard M. Collingwood who also died.

[horatio2]

Can this be merged with the OP's original topic on PO GRADY, please? Much duplication already evident.

[KizmeRD]

Apologies, I was unaware that there were multiple threads dealing with the exact same topic.

MB

[kenf48]

@Clive ex RAF plumber

Topics merged Please try not to post multiple queries on the same man as it can lead to duplication for those trying to help you.

 

[Clive ex RAF plumber]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

@Clive ex RAF plumber

Topics merged Please try not to post multiple queries on the same man as it can lead to duplication for those trying to help you.

 

 

Please accept my apologies Clive PS Have you amalgamated the posts or do you want me to delete one?