Curious case on the Portadown War Memorial…

[Laird of Camster]

I would really appreciate some pearls of wisdom here, if anyone is in a position to help? 

 

I am trying to research a Portadown chap called John Martin, he appears on the war memorial as Sergeant John Martin Royal Irish Fusiliers, Water Street.

 

I can find no record of a Sergeant John Martin Royal Irish Fusiliers on the CWGC site.

 

However, I have found the below newspaper article, dated 14th July 1917, in the Portadown News, in which it states Pte John Martin R.I.F of Water Street announced killed. 

 

I think it’s fair to conclude that they are one and the same chap. Either the war memorial or the newspaper article recording the wrong rank. An easy mistake to make, I guess?
 

 However, this doesn’t account for why there is no record of a Sergeant by that name on the CWGC, could they have got the wrong rank for him as well? 

 

Further to the puzzle is that there only 3 John Martin’s Royal Irish Fusiliers listed on the CWGC. One died in 1918, so it can’t be him, given the date of the newspaper article. Another is a Lance Corporal husband of Annie Martin, Tipperary date of death 1915, given the Tipperary details I don’t believe it to be him. Which only leaves Private John Martin died April 1916, no known grave Loos Memorial. Sadly no other details are included. 

 

But why the date of death of April 1916 and the newspaper report July 1917? 

 

Possible hypothesis being as he has no known grave, that he was in fact killed in April 1916, but not officially recorded as such until July 1917? Have been unable to find any reports of him being recorded as missing, to strengthen this case.

 

Can anyone think of any other logical reason for the differences in date? 

Edited 15 July , 2023 by Laird of Camster

[DavidOwen]

10261 John Martin 15/7/1916 - Corporal? Corporal J Martin | War Casualty Details 72019 | CWGC

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Or this Newtonards man:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/805048/john-martin/

Rifleman JOHN MARTIN

Service Number: 7616
Royal Irish Rifles 1st Bn. formerly 4th Bn.
Died 01 July 1916 Age 29 years old

THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Son of John and Mary Martin, of John St. Lane, Newtownards; husband of Elizabeth Martin, of 45A, East St., Newtownards, Co. Down.

Edited 15 July , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[DavidOwen]

10261 was born Shankhill Co Armagh Ireland, World War I Casualties, 1914-1922 - Ancestry.co.uk

 

10261 Soldier's effects to brother Samuel (Image courtesy Ancestry) - apologies if miles away.

[Laird of Camster]

Many thanks guys, certainly is a puzzle.

Further my original can’t be 21318 as he was from country Mayo

https://eddiesextracts.com/rohsdgw/royalirishfusiliers/rifusiliersbat07.html

Don’t think it’ll be 7616 given the Newtownards connect there.

 

10261 is interesting. But even he has a considerable time lapse between his death in July 1916 and newspaper report of July 1917. Cpl to Sgt is a possibility, but he appears to be reported as with a Field Ambulance, so surely his death would have been reported shortly afterwards, and not 12 months later? 

 

 

Edited 15 July , 2023 by Laird of Camster

[Laird of Camster]

Is there a 1911 census for Portadown?
 

Would be interesting to see if he’s listed as living in Water Street then? 

[DavidOwen]

My mistake I thought 1916 was the year we were looking at, will look again. Have you checked ICRC in case?

[Laird of Camster]

6 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

My mistake I thought 1916 was the year we were looking at, will look again. Have you checked ICRC in case?

Interesting are you thinking POW, perhaps?
 

Hadn’t considered that!!
 

Have been unable to find anything else on the British Newspaper Archive other than the 14th July 1917 article.

If he died as a POW wouldn’t he have CWGC grave? 
 

Another possibility, is that he died at home and is buried in a civilian grave? Although why there are no other newspaper articles in that case, is curious…

Edited 15 July , 2023 by Laird of Camster

[Laird of Camster]

Has anyone got a copy of Portadown Heroes, and would be kind enough to do a look up? Perhaps the answer is contained in there?

[DavidOwen]

I have also checked my download of CWGC Alias records and can find no suitable candidate. Is it possible that the death announcement was a mistake?

There are some possible candidates in other Fusilier regiments...

 

[DavidOwen]

I have come across something odd. 757 John Martin RIF died 25/12/1915 but Soldiers Died in the Great War says 25/12/1917 - probably nothing. John was from Shankhill Belfast.

[DavidOwen]

Looking at pension records there is this one (Image courtesy Ancestry) But he was discharged medically unfit in 1916 - see FMP link

 

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk

 

[Laird of Camster]

41 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

Looking at pension records there is this one (Image courtesy Ancestry) But he was discharged medically unfit in 1916 - see FMP link

 

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk

 

Interesting, discharged in 1916, then dies in 2nd July 1917, reported on the 14th July as killed, but had in fact had died. Perhaps he is buried in a civilian grave, hence nothing on CWGC? Still curious that there is no other articles about his death. Also why is he on the war memorial as Sgt and in a different regiment? 
 

If it is him and without wanting to go off on a tangent, who is C H Gardiner? Sweetheart perhaps?

I think the 1911 census could hold the key, if such a thing exists for Ireland? Assume there must be other Martin’s living in Portadown in order for him to have been placed onto the memorial. It doesn’t appear that the memorial was created until 1925?

 

[DavidOwen]

This is the only Martin on Water Street Portadown in the 1911 census (courtesy FMP)

[DavidOwen]

Checking the Overseas 1911 census finds possible candidates (courtesy FMP)

 

 

[DavidOwen]

Looking at soldiers wills now.

18812 doesn't appear anywhere on FMP military or Ancestry so far as I can see...

 

 

But can be discounted as CWGC have him as Corporal Tom David Martin!! Corporal Tom David Martin | War Casualty Details 735857 | CWGC

Taking a break now...

[Laird of Camster]

12 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

This is the only Martin on Water Street Portadown in the 1911 census (courtesy FMP)

 

Many thanks David, all your assistance it is greatly appreciated!!

 

Have to say, this is the hardest WW1 casualty, I’ve ever tried to research, usually it’s relatively straight forward!!!!

 

Really thought the 1911 census would have held the key. It must be assumed that Lillie was his sister (would be interesting to see where she was born). As to where their parents were, I guess we’ll never know. We must also assume that John was a professional soldier and was in India in 1911. As to when he actually died, again I guess we’ll never know. We must assume that it was Lillie who had his name included on the memorial, as she lived in Water Street, that’s where he was put as living as all the names are attributed to a a street on it. She must have reported him as Sgt and with the R.I.F’s? 

 

Not unusual for there to be no next of kin information on the CWGC. The same can be said for newspaper reports.

 

If we are going to assume he was a professional soldier, he must have been 2nd battalion, and would have died in Salonica. As that’s were they fighting in July 1917, for the newspaper to report him as having been killed. But as to why there is no CWGC or SDGW information to tally the date up, I am at a lose to explain.

Edited 16 July , 2023 by Laird of Camster

[Laird of Camster]

There is a second war memorial in St Mark’s church 

http://www.irishwarmemorials.ie/Memorials-Detail?memoId=799

Pte J Martin 1st Btn R.I.F

[DavidOwen]

It is particularly galling that we cannot find any military record that fits - I wonder if the regiment is incorrect?

Here is the most likely census connection between John and Lillie (as spelt) [Image courtesy FMP]

 

[Laird of Camster]

53 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

It is particularly galling that we cannot find any military record that fits - I wonder if the regiment is incorrect?

Here is the most likely census connection between John and Lillie (as spelt) [Image courtesy FMP]

 

Thanks again David! 

Interestingly there is no John Martin on the Ballyhalbert war memorial?

 

[Laird of Camster]

Have obtained the full newspaper article from the Portadown News of Saturday 14th July 1917.
 

I had hoped that perhaps there was more information, about John Martin, but sadly there is not.

[DavidOwen]

As a matter of interest have you identified T J Steenson (or perhaps Stevenson)? Because I cannot.

[Knotty]

I assume you have you thought of contacting our Pal Tom Burnell (on the Forum as @museumtom),he did after all spend many years compiling this splendid searchable archive 

not forgetting the 26 County War dead series he produced.

As I say just a thought

[Laird of Camster]

20 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

As a matter of interest have you identified T J Steenson (or perhaps Stevenson)? Because I cannot.

Spooky, was just looking into him.

War memorial has him as Stevenson. But definitely the same chap. CWGC has him as being killed 29th July 1916!!

So God knows, where the information for that newspaper article had come from!!????

[DavidOwen]

So in fact all bets are off re dates?