2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers

[fitz_merc]

For a number of years I have put a name up of soldier killed who is a relative of a student I am taking to the Battlefields. I am taking a group next week and have found a considerable amount on four names but little on Thomas O'Neill Service No  9981.

He met his death 23/10/1916 and his name can be found on the Tyne Cot Memorial to the Missing.

Any extra information on him or his Regiment that I can turn into a story would be welcomed. 

[IPT]

On soldiers' effects, his sister is recorded as Ada Smith.

SDGW

Name    Thomas O'Neill
Birth Place    Dublin
Death Date    23 Oct 1916
Death Place    France and Flanders
Enlistment Place    Dublin
Rank    Corporal
Royal Dublin Fusiliers
Battalion    2nd Battalion
Regimental Number    9981
Type of Casualty    Killed in action

 

This photo was on an Ancestry family tree, which says he was born 20th Jan 1889, to parents Matthew O'Neill and Julie Leroy, of 2 South Andrew Street, Dublin;

[fitz_merc]

Thank you

Yes his father Matthew was RFA- was in Jersey protecting a fort when he met his French wife to be

[IPT]

Oh, I wondered why Ada was born in Guernsey.

Have you looked at the battalion war diary on the date he went missing? He appears to have been one of 36 other ranks that went missing on that date.

[fitz_merc]

No I had thought of it and I will try tomorrow 

the date dies not ring a bell so I need to research it via the war diary 

[IPT]

4 minutes ago, fitz_merc said:

No I had thought of it and I will try tomorrow 

the date dies not ring a bell so I need to research it via the war diary 

I just had a look, but the entry for the 23rd is over two pages long, so you're better looking yourself. It's a shame we don't know which company he was in.

[fitz_merc]

Where is it easier to access these war diaries?

National Archives?

[PRC]

According to the Army Service number website the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers would have issued Regimental service number 9981 at some point between the 22nd January 1907, (9683) and the 4th December 1908, (10318). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/royal-dublin-fusiliers-1st-2nd.html

CWGC records him as 26 when he died in 1916, so that period would roughly tie in with his 18th birthday.

And Soldiers Died in the Great War tells us he enlisted in Dublin – the same source stating that was where he was born.

That enlistment date can be narrowed down a bit.

9975 Patrick Nolan attested at Dublin on the 21st December 1907. He enlisted for a 12 year short service, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He had no previous military experience. He reached the Depot at Naas on the 29th December 1907 when it is likely he would have been issued his service number. After a spell at the Depot he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 8th April 1908. He was posted to the 1st Battalion on the 5th January 1909. After repeated offences for which he was imprisoned, he was discharged on grounds of mis-conduct in 1913.

9977 Michael Murphy attested at Dublin on the 23rd December 1907. He enlisted for a 12 year short service, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He was then serving in the Militia. He reached the Depot at Naas on the 31st December 1907, when it is likely he would have been issued his service number. After a spell at the Depot he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 25th April 1908. However doesn’t seem he was a good fit for the Army – he was discharged in December 1908, services no longer required.

9984 William Linnard attested at London on the 31st December 1907. He enlisted for a 12 year short service, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He had no previous military experience. He reached the Depot at Naas on the 2nd January 1908 when it is likely he would have been issued his service number. He purchased his discharge in February 1908.

9991 Frederick Crane attested at Sunderland on the 3rd January 1908. He enlisted for a 12 year short service, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He had no previous military experience. He reached the Depot at Naas on the 8th January 1908, when it is likely he would have been issued his service number. After a spell at the Depot he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 8th April 1908. He was posted to the 1st Battalion in Egypt on the 5th January 1909. He was invalided back to England on the 25th September 1909. Eventually he was was discharged from the 2nd Battalion at Gravesend on the 1st March 1912 as medically unfit for further service.

Those individuals all had service that ended before the Great War, and so their surviving service records are in the WO97 series. Those with nearby service numbers who served on into the Great War may have surviving service records in the WO363/364 series and there may also be individuals with the the Silver War Badge. The associated Silver War Badge Roll should show a date of enlistment.

__________________ 

If Thomas also initially enlisted for 12 years, 7 or which were to be spent in the colours, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full pay, board & lodgings and medical care), then he should be recorded with them on one of the 1911 Censuses.

It may be a co-incidence, but on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, taken on the 2nd April, there is a 21 year old Private Thomas O’Neill, born Dublin, who was recorded in the Marlborough Lines Barracks, Aldershot, with the 2nd Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Unfortunately there is also a 23 year old Private Thomas O’Neill, born Dublin, who was recorded in Barracks at Ahmednagar, Deccan, India with the 1st Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers – the scope of that census included overseas garrisons. Given the relative ages it would seem likely that the 2nd Battalion man is the stronger candidate.

As a 7 year man he would still have been in the Colours period of his service when Britain declared war. At that point the 1st Battalion were out in Madras, while the 2nd Battalion were at Gravesend. The 1st Battalion returned to the UK, but didn’t get back until December 1914. The 2nd Battalion deployed to France, landing at Boulogne on the 22nd August 1914 as part of the 4th Division.

For some unknown reason Thomas did not go with this initial deployment – his Medal Index Card shows him landing in France on the 21st September 1914. You may be able to pick up the arrival of a draft from the War Diary.

FindMyPast has a Medical Admission Register for him from 1915 – unfortunately I don’t subscribe so can’t check it out.  The early MAR’s could sometimes be very informative, going down to company level for example.

The MiC is also noted “P. Died” – I’m assuming Presumed Died as that would tie in with him being remembered on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial. Doesn’t appear to be an obvious International Committee of the Red Cross record for him.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edit. War Diaries can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one it can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.  The War Diary covering August 1914 to November 1916 can be found in the National Archive catalogure here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352152

 

Edited 6 July , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[fitz_merc]

“The men had a hard time of it and underwent severe trials..,”

[fitz_merc]

13 minutes ago, PRC said:

According to the Army Service number website the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers would have issued Regimental service number 9981 at some point between the 22nd January 1907, (9683) and the 4th December 1908, (10318). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/royal-dublin-fusiliers-1st-2nd.html

CWGC records him as 26 when he died in 1916, so that period would roughly tie in with his 18th birthday.

And Soldiers Died in the Great War tells us he enlisted in Dublin – the same source stating that was where he was born.

That enlistment date can be narrowed down a bit.

9975 Patrick Nolan attested at Dublin on the 21st December 1907. He enlisted for a 12 year short service, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He had no previous military experience. He reached the Depot at Naas on the 29th December 1907 when it is likely he would have been issued his service number. After a spell at the Depot he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 8th April 1908. He was posted to the 1st Battalion on the 5th January 1909. After repeated offences for which he was imprisoned, he was discharged on grounds of mis-conduct in 1913.

9977 Michael Murphy attested at Dublin on the 23rd December 1907. He enlisted for a 12 year short service, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He was then serving in the Militia. He reached the Depot at Naas on the 31st December 1907, when it is likely he would have been issued his service number. After a spell at the Depot he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 25th April 1908. However doesn’t seem he was a good fit for the Army – he was discharged in December 1908, services no longer required.

9984 William Linnard attested at London on the 31st December 1907. He enlisted for a 12 year short service, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He had no previous military experience. He reached the Depot at Naas on the 2nd January 1908 when it is likely he would have been issued his service number. He purchased his discharge in February 1908.

9991 Frederick Crane attested at Sunderland on the 3rd January 1908. He enlisted for a 12 year short service, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He had no previous military experience. He reached the Depot at Naas on the 8th January 1908, when it is likely he would have been issued his service number. After a spell at the Depot he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 8th April 1908. He was posted to the 1st Battalion in Egypt on the 5th January 1909. He was invalided back to England on the 25th September 1909. Eventually he was was discharged from the 2nd Battalion at Gravesend on the 1st March 1912 as medically unfit for further service.

Those individuals all had service that ended before the Great War, and so their surviving service records are in the WO97 series. Those with nearby service numbers who served on into the Great War may have surviving service records in the WO363/364 series and there may also be individuals with the the Silver War Badge. The associated Silver War Badge Roll should show a date of enlistment.

__________________ 

If Thomas also initially enlisted for 12 years, 7 or which were to be spent in the colours, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full pay, board & lodgings and medical care), then he should be recorded with them on one of the 1911 Censuses.

It may be a co-incidence, but on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, taken on the 2nd April, there is a 21 year old Private Thomas O’Neill, born Dublin, who was recorded in the Marlborough Lines Barracks, Aldershot, with the 2nd Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Unfortunately there is also a 23 year old Private Thomas O’Neill, born Dublin, who was recorded in Barracks at Ahmednagar, Deccan, India with the 1st Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers – the scope of that census included overseas garrisons. Given the relative ages it would seem likely that the 2nd Battalion man is the stronger candidate.

As a 7 year man he would still have been in the Colours period of his service when Britain declared war. At that point the 1st Battalion were out in Madras, while the 2nd Battalion were at Gravesend. The 1st Battalion returned to the UK, but didn’t get back until December 1914. The 2nd Battalion deployed to France, landing at Boulogne on the 22nd August 1914 as part of the 4th Division.

For some unknown reason Thomas did not go with this initial deployment – his Medal Index Card shows him landing in France on the 21st September 1914. You may be able to pick up the arrival of a draft from the War Diary.

FindMyPast has a Medical Admission Register for him from 1915 – unfortunately I don’t subscribe so can’t check it out.  The early MAR’s could sometimes be very informative, going down to company level for example.

The MiC is also noted “P. Died” – I’m assuming Presumed Died as that would tie in with him being remembered on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial. Doesn’t appear to be an obvious International Committee of the Red Cross record for him.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edit. War Diaries can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one it can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.  The War Diary covering August 1914 to November 1916 can be found in the National Archive catalogure here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352152

 

 

[fitz_merc]

Shockingly good research Peter.

So a professional soldier like his father.

I have downloaded the War Diary and located the 23.  The. diary  is unusually detailed.

I am struggling now to see the broader picture of how these attacks fitted in with the Ypres  campaigns.  There was me thinking that all would be quiet whilst the Somme was the main focus. 

[museumtom]

From https://irelandsgreatwardead.ie/the-archive/      O'Neill	Thomas	Corporal	Royal Dublin Fusiliers.		23/10/1916	Killed in Action	Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial, Belgium.
Serial No: 9981 Unit: 2nd Battalion Age: 26 Born: Dublin Enlisted: Dublin Next of Kin: Only son of Matthew O'Neill (late Royal Field Artillery) and Adela Helena Maria Le Roy his wife, of Cherbourg, France. Brother of Miss A O'Neill, 2 McMahon, St SCR, Dublin. Grave or Memorial: Panel 44 and 46 Notes: Newspapers Books etc: The Weekly Irish Times. Ireland's Roll of Honour. August 11, 1917. Corporal Thomas V O'Neill, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, who was reported missing after an engagement on 23rd October, 1916, is now believed to have been killed on that date. He had served two years at the front, and took part on many engagements, being wounded twice and gassed once. He was the only son of the late Mr Mathew O'Neill, R.H.A., of Dublin, and a brother of Miss O'Neill, 2 McMahon Street, South Circular Road, Dublin. The Irish Times, October 23, 1919. Roll of Honour. In Memoriam. O'Neill-Third Anniversary-In loving memory of our darling brother, Corporal Tommy O'Neill, ----killed in action, October 23rd, 1916. Three years have passed; in silence borne. -----of one we always mourn. Inserted by his loving sisters, Ada, Bridie, and -------. Irish Times. O'Neill-Previously reported missing since October 23, 1916, now believed killed on that date, Corporal Thomas O'Neill, R.D.F., son of the late Mathew and Ada O'Neill, of Dublin.

Edited 7 July , 2023 by museumtom

[fitz_merc]

Thank you for this - will be useful for illustrating the impact of a death on the family at home. 

[FROGSMILE]

“Presumed died” often related to casualties from shellfire, especially if one of a group of names reported against the same date.

Edited 7 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[LDT006]

Something is wrong or am I missing it?

CWGC has 60 men listed from the 2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers who died on 23 October 1916.
List can be found here.

Thomas O'Neill is one of 18 commemorated on the Ypres Menin Gate.
42 others are on the Thiepval Memorial or are buried at sheet 57c. Ex: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/4032660/james-byrne/#&gid=2&pid=1

The war diary clearly states that they were at Daours in the Somme area.

Error in the CWGC database or were there a group of men transferred to another regiment?

 

[fitz_merc]

Well now you have put a cat amongst the pigeons!

How do I get an answer to this enigma??

I was advised to use the War Diary but that does not explain why he is commemorated at the Menin Gate

[PRC]

29 minutes ago, fitz_merc said:

Well now you have put a cat amongst the pigeons!

How do I get an answer to this enigma??

I was advised to use the War Diary but that does not explain why he is commemorated at the Menin Gate

It will come as a shock I know, but the CWGC does make mistakes In their defence a lot of it comes down to the sheer volume of information that was literally dumped on them by the armed forces glad to be free of the responsibility in the aftermath of the Great War. The Imperial War Graves Commission did a sterling job of trying to sort the paper trail out, but there were no electronic devices in those days.

There is potentially another "mistake" which your student may wish to investigate.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission and Soldiers Died in the Great War record his rank as Corporal when he died.
His Medal Index Card, (and presumably the associated Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal, available on Ancestry), show that the highest rank he served at in a Theatre of War was Acting Serjeant.

I'm struggling to find him in the Official Casualty Lists (OCL) to see what rank was recorded. Some of the 60 dead recorded on CWGC turn up in the OCL on page 12 of the edition of The Times dated Saturday November 25th, 1916 under either Killed or Died of Wounds plus potentially two wounded, but nothing under missing \ wounded presumed missing.

There are then a few more either Killed or Missing in the OCL on page 12 of The Times dated Friday December 8th 1916.

I'm not readily spotting him in the casualty lists in the UK and Irish newspapers that are availabe on the British Newspaper Archive and FindMyPast.

Of course CWGC may be correct - Acting Serjeant may only have been temporary and he had reverted back to Corporal by the time of death. But may be worthwhile going through the papertrail - Register of Soldiers Effects, (Ancestry \ Fold 3) and any Pension cards to see if there is any case for getting his rank amended.

Cheers,
Peter

[LDT006]

1 hour ago, fitz_merc said:

How do I get an answer to this enigma??

I don't know, the war diary lists 17 KIA, CWGC has 60. This difference is to high. I searched ICRC for all those on the Menin Gate and none have a family enquiry card. This would indicate that none of these were declared missing and the NOK didn't investigate further.

Most probable scenario is that the dates of death are wrong, I don't have access to FMP or Ancestry, other documents might provide a clue.

[fitz_merc]

Interesting.

His photo shows a confident soldier and I wondered why he had only made Corporal after two years. 

[PRC]

11 minutes ago, fitz_merc said:

His photo shows a confident soldier and I wondered why he had only made Corporal after two years. 

Worth checking that 1915 Medical Admission Record on FindMyPast to see what his rank was then. It may also tie in to one of his two woundings or the gassing noted in one of the newspaper extracts quoted by @museumtom

With nearly seven years under his belt by the time he landed in France in September 1914 he may well have been promoted to Lance Corporal as soon as there was a vacancy.

Cheers,
Peter

[museumtom]

From what I see they were missing on the 23rd and only reported KIA on 30th October.

Corporal Casey, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, who is now reported dead, was the eldest son of the late Dr C V Casey, Upper Ormond Quay, Dublin. He was educated at Castleknock College, Dublin, and previous to entering the Army was in the Ulster Bank at Ballyhaunis. He was reported missing on 23rd October last year. Official news of his death was only received on the 30th ult.

[museumtom]

Corporal Thomas V O'Neill, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, who was reported missing after an engagement on 23rd October, 1916, is now believed to have been killed on that date. He had served two years at the front, and took part on many engagements,

[fitz_merc]

I assume it doesn’t make it clear has to where he had been fighting? 
If it was the Somme as indicated by the War Diary why is he commemorated at Ypres?

[LDT006]

16 minutes ago, fitz_merc said:

I assume it doesn’t make it clear has to where he had been fighting? 
If it was the Somme as indicated by the War Diary why is he commemorated at Ypres?

I checked for 7 days before and 7 days after the 23th. There are some more who are on the Menin Gate but most are at the Somme. The war diary is clear: the fighting was at the Somme.

Looks like a IWGC/CWGC error and they all should have been on the Thiepval Memorial.
You could ask CWGC if they have any comments on this.

[Allan1892]

51 minutes ago, PRC said:

Worth checking that 1915 Medical Admission Record on FindMyPast to see what his rank was then. It may also tie in to one of his two woundings or the gassing

His rank was Lance Corporal. Illness: 'Rheum'

Image courtesy of FMP