CWGC Grave Concentration Map Refs - Which series and date were used ??

[MERLINV12]

As per title really, can someone tell me which series and the date of the maps that were used by GRU's to enter the original grave position on CWGC Concentration Burial Returns please. Dates on return below appear to be dated July/August 1919. He was killed 21-3-1918.

An elderly relative of 41601 H J E Newbury, has asked me to take her to visit the spot where he was originally buried, so need to convert the reference given to a modern ref/GPS.

Hopefully the landowner will allow us to visit the spot.

TIA.

Edited 3 July , 2023 by MERLINV12

[Matlock1418]

I'm seeing map ref: 62c.X.12.a.3.4 and/or 62c.Z.12.a.3.4 for where bodies found so wondering which might be correct - TrenchMAPPER or tMAPPER may be able to assist - I'm plotting outside/west of St Quentin / near Holnon where he is buried so seems in the right area = Bois d'Holnon [but I am notoriously poor at plotting!]

I'm now getting 49.858908, 3.196555 for 62c.X.12.a.3.4 [with the previous proviso!]

But, if in doubt, a shout to @WhiteStarLine would seem a good bet to more proficiently help you.

M

Edited 3 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
add geo references

[jay dubaya]

All these map references must be X as Z does not exist on this map. 62c.X.12 only exists as squares a and c as it is on the eastern extremity of sheet 62c. X.a.3.4 is just beyond the eastern edge of Bois Holmon around 2000 yards east of the village of Attilly. 

[MERLINV12]

9 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

All these map references must be X as Z does not exist on this map. 62c.X.12 only exists as squares a and c as it is on the eastern extremity of sheet 62c. X.a.3.4 is just beyond the eastern edge of Bois Holmon around 2000 yards east of the village of Attilly. 

 

10 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm seeing map ref: 62c.X.12.a.3.4 and/or 62c.Z.12.a.3.4 for where bodies found so wondering which might be correct - TrenchMAPPER or tMAPPER may be able to assist - I'm plotting outside/west of St Quentin / near Holnon where he is buried so seems in the right area = Bois d'Holnon [but I am notoriously poor at plotting!]

I'm now getting 49.858908, 3.196555 for 62c.X.12.a.3.4 [with the previous proviso!]

But, if in doubt, a shout to @WhiteStarLine would seem a good bet to more proficiently help you.

M

Thanks both for the fast response, Matlock whatever level level you are at at plotting it is far higher than mine .

Jay, I spent ages trying to find a Z square .

Just need to tie this location in with the position he fell on a trench map and  she can visit both spots.

[WhiteStarLine]

@MERLINV12, as Jay and M have correctly pointed out, it is a strange way to write the letter X.

• Take the D681 southwest out of Holnon (Rue Henri Defrance).
• At the intersection of the D686 and D681 (Crematorium d'Holnon) take the D686 for 630 yards.
• On your right is a farm track.  Assuming this has a public right of way, take this track for 449 yards.
• The exhumation site is technically 15 metres on your right.  However, allowing for any conversion inaccuracies and the fact that the trench reference is a 50 x 50 yard square, you are in the right area.  You are at 49.858908, 3.196555 or 62c.X.12.a.3.4.
• The second image shows that the Graves Registration Unit hoped to recover 7 bodies from this location, so it all tallies up.  Note the original cemetery was in Bois Holnon.

Have a great trip.  Cheers, Bill

 

[MERLINV12]

Bill,

Absolutely amazing . Just to be clear in my mind, are we saying that the wood has been reduced in size from its original wartime size ?

Thanks again.

Michael.

[WhiteStarLine]

Michael, give us your best guess of where you think he was killed, as well.

Bois Holnon looks fractionally larger today than in 1918, according to this georeferenced map.

[MERLINV12]

Bill,

Thanks for your offer of help, it is much appreciated, mapping is my weakest area of research.

My comment about the wood being smaller was based on your comment that "the original cemetery was in Bois Holnon", and the modern plot is in a clear area.

I need to find a trench map with the front line marked for the area his company were in on the day, then I can provide a map ref for conversion.

Best wishes,

Michael.

[WhiteStarLine]

42 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

trench map with the front line marked for the area his company were in on the day

You may be lucky - this was a confusing and chaotic time for the British Army, so start off with the unit war diary and try the brigade one next.  Records might be sparse so I wish you the best.  The red dashed line leads to the front line.

The Official History talks about multiple German attacks preceded by artillery bombardment.  At 2pm on the 22nd they successfully broke through and the garrison made 6 counter-attacks before heading towards Steven's Redoubt (bottom LHS of map) which was the HQ of 2/Bedfordshire.  So he might have been killed or wounded in 1 of these earlier attacks / bombardments on the 21st March.

[MERLINV12]

Bill,

I was still trying to find a map of the right area .

The 2nd Batt WD states that, his company, A Coy were in the battle zone between Savy & Etreillers on the morning of the 21st (date killed). Enemy broke through the forward zone and came into contact with A Coy in the morning.

Your trench map shows an area which appears to be quite a bit north of where the above description indicates. (using Google Earth).

On the subject of Google Earth, cannot find how to change the position read out to the type of coordinates you give.

Michael.

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi Michael, my trench map extract simply shows a bounding box extending as far north as the closest part of the front line on 21 March 1918 to where the body was recovered from.  It then extends south to Steven's Redoubt, where battalion HQ was.  I don't know where the companies / garrison were and hope you can find out.

I would regard the battalion and brigade unit war diary as the authoritative source - I can't think why he would have been moved so far north - it's 3.6 km from the battalion HQ and any medical evacuation would tend to be westward first, then north.  Post a link to the unit war diary and I will take a look and see if anything stands out.

30 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

cannot find how to change the position read out to the type of coordinates you give

I always post lat, lon conversions as these can go straight into Google Maps online.  If you mean Great War British trench map references, then this is an archaic system abandoned over 100 years ago.  Simplest way to convert is to use the free TrenchMapper service.  Or search on a term like steven and it will give you 49.838384, 3.160175.  Google Maps won't give you 62c.X.21.c but it will accept the lat, lon pair.

[MERLINV12]

Have now found great map in brigade diary, will try to extract and post.

Edited 4 July , 2023 by MERLINV12

[MERLINV12]

Bill,

Found this, but as I am colour blind, the key proved a problem, all the circles look the same to me, had to get a neighbour to explain which were which.

"A  Coy" were in the front line trenches, at the front of the battle zone.

90 IB WD MAP.pdf

[MERLINV12]

Bill,

Sorry found another map.

90 IB WD MAP 2.pdf

[AOK4]

May I suggest that it seems there was a small cemetery at Holnon Wood, possibly created by the Germans after they captured the area? They would have cleared the battlefield a bit and would have buried the dead as well.

[MERLINV12]

5 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

May I suggest that it seems there was a small cemetery at Holnon Wood, possibly created by the Germans after they captured the area? They would have cleared the battlefield a bit and would have buried the dead as well.

Thanks for your post, the map reference given by the Grave Recovery Unit as his original burial place appears to be in Holnon Wood, (see map in post 9).

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi Michael,

Here is the map you provided, georeferenced over a modern map.  Click to enlarge as it is a large overlay.  To see the live map and get your own coordinates, follow the link below - it's a big map so give it around 15 seconds to download the historic one.  Use the opacity slider to see the modern landscape underneath and if you click on a point, you can copy the lat, lon for later use in Google Maps.

http://mapcrop.tmapper.com/georef.html?id=ljo9mjlu

Also, I agree with Jan - the exhumation location was in another division's area and they all left the next day.  I suspect the Germans buried them and erected crosses as the British Army didn't return to this area until October 1918.

[MERLINV12]

Bill & Everyone,

What can I say, two locations found in under a morning, would have taken me months on my own.

Can now book tunnel & B&B for later in the year.

Many, Many, THANKS.

Michael.

[Matlock1418]

As rather expected - an excellent job by those who are more expert in mapping! 

Just for the record and any others who may come across this thread ...

CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2911891/h-j-e-newbury - Son of Mr. J. Newbury, of 51, Railway Rd., Teddington, Middx.

BWM & VM MIC gives name as Henry J E NEWBURY

GRO expands to 

Name:                                                        Mother's Maiden Surname: 

NEWBURY,  HENRY  JAMES EDWARD          PEACKEY  

GRO Reference: 1898  D Quarter in HAMPSTEAD  Volume 01A  Page 627

I couldn't find a pension index card or ledger page record at WFA/Fold3 - so it rather seems likely his father didn't claim as a dependant

I hope his Register of Soldier's Effects entry has been found [other members may be able to help if needed].

I couldn't find a Will at the Probate Office

M

Edited 4 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[AOK4]

I had also checked the Red Cross files but couldn't immediately find any name from the burial return sheet. Which indicates they may have been buried quickly by the Germans without any medical units involved or somehow the names weren't recorded.

[MERLINV12]

21 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

As rather expected - an excellent job by those who are more expert in mapping! 

Just for the record and any others who may come across this thread ...

CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2911891/h-j-e-newbury - Son of Mr. J. Newbury, of 51, Railway Rd., Teddington, Middx.

BWM & VM MIC gives name as Henry J E NEWBURY

GRO expands to 

Name:                                                        Mother's Maiden Surname: 

NEWBURY,  HENRY  JAMES EDWARD          PEACKEY  

GRO Reference: 1898  D Quarter in HAMPSTEAD  Volume 01A  Page 627

I couldn't find a pension index card or ledger page record at WFA/Fold3 - so it rather seems likely his father didn't claim as a dependant

I hope his Register of Soldier's Effects entry has been found [other members may be able to help if needed].

I couldn't find a Will at the Probate Office

M

Thanks for your efforts, the only thing I couldn't access was Fold 3, SE entry has £9-10s-11d paid to James (father).

The only missing info, is enlistment date, which I believe can be calculated from the above amount ??

Edited 4 July , 2023 by MERLINV12

[MERLINV12]

15 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

I had also checked the Red Cross files but couldn't immediately find any name from the burial return sheet. Which indicates they may have been buried quickly by the Germans without any medical units involved or somehow the names weren't recorded.

THANK YOU 

Edited 4 July , 2023 by MERLINV12

[Matlock1418]

26 minutes ago, MERLINV12 said:

SE entry has £9-10s-11d paid to James (father).

The only missing info, is enlistment date, which I believe can be calculated from the above amount ??

Not quite - there will typically be his Effects [typically outstanding pay In £sd] and a separate War Gratuity [typically in £ and 10/- I think] and its's from that WG that the month of enlistment may often be calculated [another member(s} may be able to assist]

M

[kenf48]

 

3 hours ago, MERLINV12 said:

The only missing info, is enlistment date,

Henry James Edward Newbury birth was registered in the 4th Quarter of 1898, although the 1911 Census shows 1899.

In any event he would have been deemed to have enlisted on his eighteenth birthday and mobilised within three months of that date.  He would not have been sent on active service overseas until his nineteenth birthday.    This suggests mobilisation in the first quarter of 1917, or if he volunteered aged seventeen he could have joined up around the summer of 1916.  He was posted to a  Training Reserve Battalion, probably the 26th Bn, and from there to a Graduated Battalion (52nd) until aged nineteen and posted  to the BEF on or around 16th-25th December 1917.  The draft appears to have been renumbered at the Base Depot, oddly most of those numbered around him were posted to the 7th Battalion.  Unfortunately the War Diary does not note receiving drafts.

The soldiers effects gratuity paid was £6.  This amount represents his entire service of around eighteen months, not just his time on active service. 

 

[MERLINV12]

37 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

Henry James Edward Newbury birth was registered in the 4th Quarter of 1898, although the 1911 Census shows 1899.

In any event he would have been deemed to have enlisted on his eighteenth birthday and mobilised within three months of that date.  He would not have been sent on active service overseas until his nineteenth birthday.    This suggests mobilisation in the first quarter of 1917, or if he volunteered aged seventeen he could have joined up around the summer of 1916.  He was posted to a  Training Reserve Battalion, probably the 26th Bn, and from there to a Graduated Battalion (52nd) until aged nineteen and posted  to the BEF on or around 16th-25th December 1917.  The draft appears to have been renumbered at the Base Depot, oddly most of those numbered around him were posted to the 7th Battalion.  Unfortunately the War Diary does not note receiving drafts.

The soldiers effects gratuity paid was £6.  This amount represents his entire service of around eighteen months, not just his time on active service. 

 

Thanks for the info, I now understand the pre-overseas process better.

Please see attached image of what I am led to believe is his Soldiers Effects record (sorry resolution is bad), which IF this is correct doesn't agree with your amount of gratuity.