Perth Academy former pupil Second Lt David Archibald Martin, Ox and Bucks Light Infantry

[Matlock1418]

On 10/07/2023 at 14:51, DoubleD said:

On Scotlands People there are 12 recorded deaths for David Martin in Scotland in 1918. Five of them are service returns, but there are two doublers. None of the three casualties match the Daivd Martin I'm looking for.

39 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

This is the entry in the English Probate Register (ancestry):

Might be a bit odd and a potential longshot but because his Probate is shown from England might he perhaps have a Death Certificate accessible through the GRO's E&W Overseas Deaths? - like what would be possible for an English soldier?? They are obtained by GRO extracting from a Register and writing out on a new DC - so you get a brand new copy DC should you go through the process, which takes a while too [It is quite costly to so obtain - more so than from Scotland!]

Thoughts ... ???

M

Edited 11 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[johntanner]

There seems to be 2 copies of 'A Record of the 2nd Bucks Battalion T.F.', 1914-1918‘ in the Bucks County Record Office under ref TA/6/3 and TA/6/31.

[dhubthaigh]

Index to War Deaths 1914 - 1921. Army Officers.

Year 1918.  Volume 0.13.  Page 75.

[rolt968]

5 hours ago, johntanner said:

The reference to the Bn History is that of 2/1 Bucks Bn written by Captain Ivor Stewart Liberty. I’ve only seen one copy, which was in the reserve collection of the Bucks County Library, Aylesbury, in the late 1970s - early 1980s. It was, I think, privately published and I’ve not been able to track down a copy since. 
 

Maybe another Forum Pal has been luckier. It is referenced at footnote 1 in the Chronicle extract I posted at 14:35 on Sunday.

There is a copy in the British Library. I hope to be there in October.

https://explore.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=moreTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=BLL01001096941&indx=3&recIds=BLL01001096941&recIdxs=2&elementId=2&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&vl(297891299UI2)=any&vl(297891310UI4)=&&dscnt=0&vl(1UIStartWith0)=contains&vl(1UIStartWith2)=contains&mode=Advanced&vid=BLVU1&vl(297891311UI4)=00&tab=local_tab&vl(freeText1)=Liberty.&dstmp=1689108647228&vl(297891292UI0)=AND&frbg=&vl(297891294UI1)=AND&vl(297891309UI4)=00&vl(297891307UI3)=all_items&vl(297891312UI4)=00&scp.scps=scope%3A(BLCONTENT)&tb=t&vl(1UIStartWith1)=contains&vl(297891298UI2)=AND&vl(297891293UI0)=creator&srt=rank&vl(297891308UI4)=00&vl(297891313UI4)=&Submit=Search&vl(297891295UI1)=creator&vl(freeText2)=&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Ivor Stewart

RM

5 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Might be a bit odd and a potential longshot but because his Probate is shown from England might he perhaps have a Death Certificate accessible through the GRO's E&W Overseas Deaths? - like what would be possible for an English soldier?? They are obtained by GRO extracting from a Register and writing out on a new DC - so you get a brand new copy DC should you go through the process, which takes a while too [It is quite costly to so obtain - more so than from Scotland!]

That's what I was thinking about.

RM

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

That's what I was thinking about.

If you/anyone goes for it - please do let us know the outcome.

M

[PRC]

Just trying to tidy up some loose ends and hopefully provide some more circumstantial evidence to add to the the case.

Second Lieutenant D.A. Martin, Oxfordshire & Buckingham Light Infantry is listed as Missing on the Officers Official Casualty List that appeared on page 11 of the edition of The Times dated April 25, 1918.

 

Image courtesy The Times Digitial Archive.

Unfortunately this list doesn’t show which Theatre(s) it relates to, although it starts with a separate section for the Royal Naval Division so covers at least France & Flanders.

Of the others recorded as Missing :-

Second Lieutenant W.T. Alexander, Durham Light Infantry. The MiC for 2^nd Lieutenant William Thompson Alexander, 11^th Battalion, shows him on the exonerated officers list – i.e. he had been a PoW and had satisfied the authorities there was no alternative to his being captured. The 11^th Battalion were then in France.

Second Lieutenant F. Arnott, Durham Light Infantry. CWGC has 2\Lt Frederick Arnott of the 11^th Battalion who died on the 29^th March 1918 and who is remembered on the Pozieres Memorial in France.

Second Lieutenant H.L. Bambridge, M.C., East Yorkshire Regiment. CWGC has 2\Lt Harry Liddall Bambridge, 7^th Battalion, who died on the 31^st March 1918 and is commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

Second Lieutenant W. Banks, Durham Light Infantry. CWGC has a 2/Lt William Banks, 11^th Battalion, who died a German Prisoner of War on the 6^th April 1918 and who was originally buried at Muille Vilette German Cemetery. ICRC card for family enquiry – missing since 24^th March 1918. Died in a German Field Hospital at Ham.

Lieutenant H.B. Beaumont, Border Regiment attached M.G.C. MiC shows him as 5^th Battalion, Border Regiment and that he was on the exonerated officers list – i.e. he had been a PoW and had satisfied the authorities there was no alternative to his being captured. The 5^th Battalion were then in France. Various newspapers include a 2\Lt H.B. Beaumont, Border Regiment in a list of officers previously reported missing, now a Prisoner of War in Germany, (includes Leeds Mercury 20/04/18, Whitehaven Advertiser 18/05/18, Civil & Military Gazette (Lahore) 26/05/18 as shown on the search returns on the  British Newspaper Archive – actual articles may have more)

Second Lieutenant C.A. Bennett, Rifle Brigade ICRC card for 2/Lt C A Bennett, 16^th Battalion attached 117^th Infantry Brigade Headquarters missing since 27^th March 1918. ICRC response – being held at Graudenz.

Captain W.H.P. Bennett, M.C., Royal Sussex Regiment. CWGC has a Captain William Henry Pope Bennett, 13^th Battalion, who died on the 3^rd March 1918 and who is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

Second Lieutenant J.H. Bentley, Gloucester Regiment attached Royal West Kent Regiment. There is a MiC for a 2/Lt John Herbert Bentley, 14^th Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment, which is noted that he was on the exonerated Officers list – i.e. he had been a PoW and had satisfied the authorities there was no alternative to his being captured.

Second Lieutenant W. Bradney, Tank Corps. CWGC has a 2/Lt Walter Bradney, 1^st Battalion, who died 24^th March 1918 and is commemorated on the Pozieres Memorial.

Second Lieutenant J.P. Bunce, K.R.R.C. ICRC card for 2/Lt John T. Bunce, KRRC, captured Morecourt, 27^th March 1918.

Second Lieutenant W.G. Craig, Durham Light Infantry. CWGC has a 2\Lt Walter George Craig, “A” Company, 11^th Pioneer Battalion who died on the 5^th November 1918, most likely as a Prisoner of War as he was originally buried at Graudenz in Poland. ICRC card only covers the German report of his death.

Second Lieutenant L.J. Davison, East Kent Regiment attached Trench Mortar Battery. ICRC card for Louis James Davision is correspondence only and simply states “2/Lt Buffs attached Trench Mortar Batt” with no useful information. However there is a second card under the Artillery sub-heading that records he was with the 1^st Battalion attached to 16 Trench Mortar Battery when he was captured at Noreuil on the 21^st March 1918.

Captain W.B. Dowson, (Lieutenant Liverpool Regiment), Trench Mortar Battery. ICRC card 21^st TMB captured 21^st March 1918 St. Quentin. MiC records him as William Bertram Dowson

Second Lieutenant H. Etherton, Royal Sussex Regiment. ICRC Card for 2/Lt Harvey Etherton, 11^th Battalion, captured St. Quentin 21^st March 1918.

Second Lieutenant R.R. Galley, Durham Light Infantry. CWGC has a 2\Lt Ralph Rowlands Galley, “A” Company, 11^th Pioneer Battalion who died on the 22^nd March 1918 and who was buried in Eppeville Old Churchyard, France.

Second Lieutenant H.J. Gilbert, Rifle Brigade. CWGC has a 2\Lt Herbert James Gilbert, 16^th Battalion, who died on the 22^nd March 1918 and who is commemorated on the Pozieres Memorial.

Second Lieutenant W.L. Gillies, Black Watch. ICRC card for 2/Lt William Lindsay Gillies, 4/5 Battalion, captured Peronne 25^th March 1918.

Second Lieutenant E. Groves, East Yorkshire Regiment. CWGC has 2\Lt Ernest Groves, 7^th Battalion, who died on the 31^st March 1918 and who is commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

Second Lieutenant W.E. Hayes, Somerset Light Infantry. ICRC card for 2/Lt William Ernest Hayes, 8^th Battalion, captured Gommecourt 5^th April 1918.

Second Lieutenant W. Hills, M.G.C. ICRC card for a correspondence file, missing since 29^th March 1918, response in September 1918 being held at Graudenz.

Captain L.E. James, M.C., (Lieutenant London Regiment), K.R.R.C. Multiple ICRC cards for correspondence only files – missing since 25^th March 1918. In May 1918 they were able to confirm he was a prisoner at Rastatt. Card shows Captain KRRC (late Lieutenant London Regiment).

Lieutenant A.S. Jerrard, South Staffordshire Regiment attached Royal Flying Corps. ICRC has a card for the post-war repatriation of a Flight Lieutenant Alan Jerrard, Royal Flying Corps, which may relate.His MiC shows Alan Jerrard as 2/Lt South Staffs and Flying Officer R.F.C and R.A.F. It is also noted he received the Victoria Cross. He was brought down in Italy on the 30^th March 1918 in the sortie for which he was awarded the VC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Jerrard

Second Lieutenant A.Lightley, East Yorkshire Regiment. CWGC has 2/Lt Albert Lightly, 7^th Battalion, who died on the 31^st March 1918 and who is commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

Second Lieutenant J.G. Lymer, Lancashire Fusiliers. ICRC has a card for Lt. John Lymer, 1/8^th Battalion, captured Bucquoy 5^th April 1918.

Second Lieutenant K. McBryde, A.S.C. attached Royal Field Artilley. ICRC card for 2/Lt Kenneth McBryde, Motor Transport, captured wounded at Roye, 25^th March 1918.

Second Lieutenant G.T. Milnes, Yorkshire Regiment attached M.G.C.. Possible MiC for a George Tweedale Milnes, first landed in France 27^th November and served as a 2/Lt with the 59^th Machine Gun Company and then as a Lieutenant in the Tank Corps.

Second Lieutenant A.W. Neale, Royal Sussex Regiment attached Trench Mortar Battery ICRC have a correspondence only record card for a 2/Lt A.W. Neale, Royal Sussex Regiment attached Trench Mortar Battery, R.F.A., who the enquirer stated had been missing since the 30^th March 1918. However there is also a second card under Artillery for an Arthur Neale, “1^st Lieutenant” 11^th Royal Sussex, captured wounded at Ham, 30^th March 1918.

Second Lieutenant F. Nurse, Sherwood Foresters. MiC for a 2 Lt Frederick Nurse, Sherwood Foresters, commissioned from the ranks of the KRRC. Thumbnails on the British Newspaper Archive – 16/05/18 Nottingham Journal Prisoner of War, 10/08/18 A Prisoner in Germany (+ photo), originally with 7^th KRRC in France.

Second Lieutenant W.H. Pearce, R.F.A. attached Trench Mortar Battery. ICRC has a card for a 2/Lt Walter Harry Pearce, Royal Field Field Artillery, who was stated by his wife to have been missing since the 28^th March 1918. The ICRC would eventually hear from the Germans in October 1918 that Walter had died in a German Military Hospital at Le Cateau on the 24^th April 1918. CWGC shows 2/Lt Walter Harry Pearce as serving with “X”, 39^th Trench Mortar Battery.

Captain L.G. Peters, West Yorkshire Regiment. CWGC has a Captain Lionel Gordon Peters, 10^th Battalion, who died on the 25^th March 1918 and is commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

Second Lieutenant F.J. Robson, Manchester Regiment. ICRC has a card for 2/Lt Frederick Robson, 2/8^th Battalion, who was captured at Hargicourt on the 21^st March 1918.

Second Lieutenant E.C.A. Runnels-Moss, R.F.A. CWGC has a 2/Lt E C A Runnels-Moss, 2^nd Brigade, who died on the 9^th July 1918, probably a prisoner of war as he originally buried at Mainz. ICRC have three cards with variations on the first names – the fullest shows him as Eric Cross Arnold Runnels-Moss. He was serving with 87^th Battery when he was captured at Lagnicourt on the 21^st March 1918.

Second Lieutenant H. Rutherford, Durham Light Infantry. ICRC has a card for a 2/Lt Harry Rutherford, with his parents stating he had been missing since the 22^nd March 1918. The ICRC drew a blank with their enquiries.

Reverend W.A. Scanlen, Army Chaplains Department attached R.F.A. ICRC has cards for a Captain Chaplain William Alexanto Scanlon attached 16^th Division,  and a Reverend Chaplain of the Forces, R.F.A., W.A. Scanlen. They have subsequently been seen to be the same man and the Scanlon speliing has been amended. He was captured on the 22^nd March 1918 at St. Emilie.

Lieutenant F.A. Shurrock, West Yorkshire Regiment. ICRC has a card for Lt. Francis Chubrey Shurrock who was captured 25^th March 1918, place name unreadable but may begin “Sou”

Captain A.W.F. Stewart, M.C., Scottish Rifles. ICRC have a card as a result of an enquiry from the mother of Captain Alan W.F. Stewart stating he was missing since the 25^th March 1918. ICRC enquiries drew a blank.

Captain G.B. Tatham, M.C., Rifle Brigade. CWGC has a Captain G.B. Tatham, 3^rd Battalion, who died on the 30^th March 1918, inscription on headstone says killed near Hangard Wood, recovered from the battlefield in 1920 and buried at Caix in France. MiC shows him as Geoffrey Bulmer Tatham, 3^rd Battalion, Rifle Brigade, attached Staff and that he died of wounds.

Second Lieutenant W. Templeton, Royal Scottish Fusiliers. ICRC have two enquiries for him from the family, one as William Templeton, both stating he was missing since the 26^th March 1918 in France, ICRC enquiries drew a blank. MiC shows him as 4^th Battalion, Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Captain H.Thrush, Lancashire Fusiliers. ICRC have a card for a Captain Harry Thruch, 1/8^th Battalion, who was captured on the 5^th April 1918 at Bucquoy. The bottom of the card is marked “voir Thrush” but I could see any cards under that surname.

Captain C.G. Walter, M.C., Royal Sussex Regiment. ICRC have a card for Captain Clarence Walter, 13^th Battalion, captured wounded at Taucon on the 22^nd March 1918.

Second Lieutenant F.A. Watkins, East Yorkshire Regiment. CWGC has a 2/Lt Frederick Augustus Watkins, 7^th Battalion, who died 24^th March 1918 and is commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

Major J.R. Webster, D.S.O., Sherwood Foresters. CWGC has a Lieutenant Colonel John Ryrie Webster, D.S.O., 16^th Battalion, who died on the 22^nd March 1918 and is commemorated on the Pozieres Memorial.

Lieutenant P.D. Wilmot, Royal Sussex Regiment. CWGC has a Lieutenant Paul Dominie Wilmot, 3^rd Battalion attached 12^th, who died on the 25^th March 1918 and is remembered on the Pozieres Memorial.                                                                                      

So seems likely it covers only France & Flanders along with Italy.

Cheers,
Peter

[DoubleD]

Thanks for going to so much trouble Peter.

I think what I should do now is try and collate all this information, submit it to CWGC and see what they think. There may be enough there for them to consider having a look in their archives or they may require more evidence. Either way we’ll know where we stand. 

I’ll post any response I get.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time and trouble to help with this request.

Dave 

 

[DoubleD]

It’s been a while, but I’ve received a reply from CWGC and thought that I should share it with the Forum.

I collated and submitted every bit of evidence to CWGC which had been provided by you very kind people.

In short they said that the evidence supplied was appreciated and that they had carried out further research, in order to gather as much military evidence as possible in an attempt to determine the location of 2nd Lt Martin’s death.

Whilst they appreciated that there is civil documentation stating the location of his death in France, unfortunately there is no official military documentation to corroborate this at present. They went on to say that though it does appear that there is room for doubt regarding the unit attribution it cannot be said for certain which unit he was serving with at the time of his death.

As a result, he will remain commemorated on the Basra Memorial. If further evidence to support 2nd Lt Martin’s death occurring in France is located they will be happy to re-assess the case.

So, sorry folks, it’s a bit of a disappointing outcome, but I did try.

 

Thanks once again to you all.

Dave 

 

 

 

[rolt968]

55 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

It’s been a while, but I’ve received a reply from CWGC and thought that I should share it with the Forum.

I collated and submitted every bit of evidence to CWGC which had been provided by you very kind people.

In short they said that the evidence supplied was appreciated and that they had carried out further research, in order to gather as much military evidence as possible in an attempt to determine the location of 2nd Lt Martin’s death.

Whilst they appreciated that there is civil documentation stating the location of his death in France, unfortunately there is no official military documentation to corroborate this at present. They went on to say that though it does appear that there is room for doubt regarding the unit attribution it cannot be said for certain which unit he was serving with at the time of his death.

As a result, he will remain commemorated on the Basra Memorial. If further evidence to support 2nd Lt Martin’s death occurring in France is located they will be happy to re-assess the case.

So, sorry folks, it’s a bit of a disappointing outcome, but I did try.

 

Thanks once again to you all.

Dave 

 

 

 

It seems a bit perverse to reject a legal document.  I think I have got the bit between my teeth. He has an officer's record at TNA. My next visit should be sometime in September/ Ocotber. I will see if there is anything useful in that.

RM

[DoubleD]

I'll be honest with you RM, I feel I've reached the limit of my level of expertise. I certainly know a lot more than I did when I started my journey with the Academy project in 2014, but I've relied so much on the knowledge and expertise of  forum members and your help is very much appreciated. A visit to TNA is something I'm unlikely to be able to contemplate in the near future either, but If you are going anyway, and are prepared to spend some time looking for these records, I really do owe you one!

Very many thanks,

Dave

 

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, DoubleD said:

It’s been a while, but I’ve received a reply from CWGC and thought that I should share it with the Forum.

I collated and submitted every bit of evidence to CWGC which had been provided by you very kind people.

In short they said that the evidence supplied was appreciated and that they had carried out further research, in order to gather as much military evidence as possible in an attempt to determine the location of 2nd Lt Martin’s death.

Whilst they appreciated that there is civil documentation stating the location of his death in France, unfortunately there is no official military documentation to corroborate this at present. They went on to say that though it does appear that there is room for doubt regarding the unit attribution it cannot be said for certain which unit he was serving with at the time of his death.

As a result, he will remain commemorated on the Basra Memorial. If further evidence to support 2nd Lt Martin’s death occurring in France is located they will be happy to re-assess the case.

So, sorry folks, it’s a bit of a disappointing outcome, but I did try

Your efforts are appreciated by those who care.

On a point of interest - did you get a DC from GRO [or perhaps ScotlandsPeople]? - the military made Service Returns of overseas deaths and a DC taken from those should likely suffice.

M

[DoubleD]

No I didn't M, but I can contact them and see if I can get one.

Thanks a lot,

Dave

[rolt968]

22 hours ago, DoubleD said:

I'll be honest with you RM, I feel I've reached the limit of my level of expertise. I certainly know a lot more than I did when I started my journey with the Academy project in 2014, but I've relied so much on the knowledge and expertise of  forum members and your help is very much appreciated. A visit to TNA is something I'm unlikely to be able to contemplate in the near future either, but If you are going anyway, and are prepared to spend some time looking for these records, I really do owe you one!

Very many thanks,

Dave

 

I accumulate a number of things I need to resaerch at TNA every year. Recently most have them have been officers' records and war diaries which have not been digitised. I will add David Martin's record to my list. I should be at TNA in September or October. (My health blip has delayed making bookings.)

RM

[DoubleD]

Many thanks! Hope your health is much better.

Enjoy your visit, look forward to seeing what you find!

Dave