Perth Academy former pupil Second Lt David Archibald Martin, Ox and Bucks Light Infantry

[johntanner]

And should have thought of this earlier but her is his memorial entry in the Chronicles 

[Matlock1418]

29 minutes ago, johntanner said:

should have thought of this earlier but her is his memorial entry in the Chronicles 

Assuming I have read this correctly and followed through properly, never a certainty! [though the sequencing of Bn. may also have a lot to do with things] - LLT have this:

2/1st Buckinghamshire Battalion
Formed at Aylesbury in September 1914 as a second line unit. Record same as 2/4th Bn.
22 February 1918 : all officers and men transferred to the 25th Entrenching Battalion at Curchy, and this battalion disbanded.

Curchy is in France

All in all, quite a puzzle at the moment.

M

Edited 9 July , 2023 by Matlock1418

[johntanner]

And from the 1917/1918 Chronicle 

[PRC]

Thanks @johntanner.

So the 61st Brigade War Diary for the period might be a good place to start for a guide to where the 25th Entrenching Battalion might have been on the 25th March 1918. Unlikely to mention 2\Lt Martin by name, but may give an idea as to casualties.

March to May 1918 can be found here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14054118

Going back to the The Story of the 2/4th OBLI by Captain G K Rose, page 166 and the sketch map on the facing page makes clear how 61st and 20th Divisions were working together.

Cheers,
Peter

[DoubleD]

Peter and M, you guys are amazing! Thanks very much for doing all this work.

Dave 

[PRC]

The Scottish connection will mean that ScotlandsPeople will hold the equivalent of a death certificate issued by the army - they describe it as a service return.

May help settle which unit he was serving with and in which country he died.

It would also be one more source that could help,  (or hinder!) your case should you decide to go on and try to get the CWGC to amend their records for him and change where he is commemorated.

The documents relating to his probate can also be purchased from the link I posted - I believe it still £1.50 for a low quality pdf. It won't have progressed through the courts until his death was confirmed so a small possibility there is some information about his death registration as well.

2 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Peter and M, you guys are amazing! Thanks very much for doing all this work.

Not forgetting @Tawhiri, @rolt968 & @johntanner - it's the collaborations on the forum that makes it such a pleasure to be here

Cheers,
Peter

[DoubleD]

Of course, please forgive me. I did thank them at the time, but it’s worth repeating my thanks to everyone on the forum. You’re so right about collaboration, there are so many people willing to give their time to help. As a total novice over ten years ago the best piece of advice I received at the beginning of our school project was to join the forum. No exaggeration to say we couldn’t have done it without the GWF. Definitely a pleasure to be here! 
 

Cheers,

Dave 

[DoubleD]

On Scotlands People there are 12 recorded deaths for David Martin in Scotland in 1918. Five of them are service returns, but there are two doublers. None of the three casualties match the Daivd Martin I'm looking for. Not sure if I'm allowed to share the whole document so I've blanked out the other names.

I visited the AK Bell library in Perth and I did manage to find an entry in the Peoples Journal with a photograph stating that he was missing.

Dave 

Service returns.pdf

[rolt968]

On 09/06/2023 at 16:05, rolt968 said:

I would be inclined to go with the CWGC with probate being in error. I know of a case where the memorial inscription on a family gravestone gives both the wrong date and the wrong theatre.  However where names are on memorials rather than CWGC gravestones I have known errors, but not one where the theatre of war was wrong!

RM

I dropped a brick with this post. I should have known better.

English probate was used in a successful In From the Cold application for which I provided the evidence. (The man died at Kut.)

Two thoughts:

I wonder what evidence of death was presented for probate in England.

Will the CWGC accept Probate as evidence of both death and location of death?

RM

Edited 10 July , 2023 by rolt968

[DoubleD]

Have downloaded the War Diaries as suggested. Can't find any reference to him by name around the date of his death/reported missing but he is on the Roll Call of Officers in February 1918 and On Leave.

Assuming he had returned from leave by April 1918?

[PRC]

2 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Assuming he had returned from leave by April 1918?

Following the heavy fighting throughout 1917, an opportunity was taken in January, February and early March 1918 to allow the men fighting in France & Flanders home leave. Officers seem to have got 10 days, often in batches of 4/5 in my experience. I don't suppose the diary records the return of any of the other officers shown as being on leave - there is a Company Commander and an Assistant Adjutant in the mix.

Even if he had got longer he would have been recalled to France at the start of the German Spring Offensive and so would have been likely to have caught up with his unit by the day of his death.

Cheers,
Peter

[DoubleD]

Thanks for that Peter.

I don’t think there’s much doubt that he wasn’t in Mesopotamia. Is what we have so far enough to submit to CWGC to have his point of commemoration changed?

I’ve no real personal experience of the work of the IFCP, but would I be better to seek their advice first? 
 

Cheers,

Dave 

[Matlock1418]

If I recall correctly [which I'm afraid is not always certain these day!] there has been another thread(s) on GWF which, potentially quite recently [?], discussed the Basra Memorial and the unusual placement of names upon it by CWGC. 

= Does anyone else recall such a thread(s)? / Can anyone find it (them)? 

Pending an answer from CWGC might that thread(s) perhaps offer a general explanation of sorts ???

M

Edit: the memory wasn't as bad as I thought and after a bit of searching I found it, a bit further back than I thought, but an interesting reply from CWGC = they seem to have their own logic and rules [but I think not well publicised/accessible!] and not a more widely applicable/ generic explanation.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/302406-inland-water-transport-tug-name-query - About an IWT tug sunk by a mine off Dieppe but crew commemorated on the Basra Memorial

This is what turned up, from @ StevePal: "I asked CWGC why the names were on Basra and they stated that this was because it was one of their main areas of operations and so IWT are commemorated on that memorial" = !!!???

It also seems "CWGC have amended their database to include the names on Brookwood 1914-1918 Memorial" = that seems better.

Will be interesting to hear CWGC's explanation for Lt David Archibald MARTIN = Awaited I guess

Edited 11 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
strike

[PRC]

1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

Is what we have so far enough to submit to CWGC to have his point of commemoration changed?

I’ve no real personal experience of the work of the IFCP, but would I be better to seek their advice first? 

The primary forcus of the IFCP seems to be those whose commemorations have been missed completely. However I defer to @Terry Denham as it may well be that among the volunteer researchers there are some with experience of dealing with the CWGC with this kind of issue. The choice of where he is commemorated would appear to be solely within the remit of the CWGC, so shouldn't be any need for the time consuming review by the Army \ JSA.

If it was me, (with one eye very sadly on my budget) I'd take a 'softly, softly' approach.

Step 1. Write to CWGC saying you believe there is evidence that David died in France but before you went to the time and expense of preparing a formal submission, could they just confirm the reasoning behind him being commemorated at Basra.   While I've never attempted anything like this, I have had an instance where the same man with the same service number and date of death was commemorated on two different memorials relating to the German Spring Offensive - but with a different regiments. Like the Bucks Battalion of the OBLI  the issue was a strong TF link between the Battalion and the Regiment.  I wrote to them and as soon as they pulled the two sets of paperwork up from the archive they could see they related to one and the same man. So it's possible that a review of Davids' CWGC paperwork will be enough to start things being corrected.

Step 2. If they are still insisting that Basra Memorial is correct you will at least know what is the basis of their argument for making that decision. Assuming it's based on unit then that is your line of attack. Write up your case and submit is with the original source information gathered so far - probate calendar \ OBLI roll of honour \ 2/1st Bucks Diary extract et al. You may want to add to that with his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects, (Ancestry \ Fold 3) and may be worth checking The Times for the Official Casualty List to see what List he appears - these often refer to the Theatre for the casualty in the header. If you want to splash the cash you could add in a copy of the probate, and even his officers records - although personally I'd save getting a copy of that until CWGC come back and say the matter can't be resolved without it - that would be my Step 3.

Good luck with whichever way you choose to pursue this and let the forum know how you get on.

Cheers,
Peter

[dhubthaigh]

I noted in the War Diary that D. A. Martin was 2/1st Ox & Bucks attached to 3rd.

I found the following small newspaper article which mentions S. J. Griffin died of wounds. Griffin's CWGC entry has him attached to the 3rd, died on 26th March and buried Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery.

 

[johntanner]

Griffin is 3rd attd 1st. Martin is 3rd attd. 2/1st Bucks Bn.

[dhubthaigh]

I think the following is a transcription of a family headstone in Moray Council area. Martin's death is shown as St. Quentin, France........

[Matlock1418]

42 minutes ago, dhubthaigh said:

I think the following is a transcription of a family headstone in Moray Council area. Martin's death is shown as St. Quentin, France........

Think this is the FaG page for the above https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/182948779/david-martin

They seems to be a conflated mix of birth and death dates in their current description of his death date!

"Born 2nd Dec. 1893 [? or 1895?] Reported Missing ???? Le Petit Near St Quentin 25 March 1918" - can't read/interpret the ???? but seems a pretty specific location for his death

M

Edit: Could that possibly be Fresnoy-Le Petit?

And, the more I look at the stone the more I see 2/1st Oxford & Bucks LI

Edited 11 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

41 minutes ago, johntanner said:

Griffin is 3rd attd 1st

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/633624/sydney-james-griffin  CWGC have as GRIFFIN as Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry 1st Bn. attd. 3rd Bn.

M

[dhubthaigh]

to the memory of
Lt David A. Martin
2/1st Oxford & Bucks L.I.
Second son of
David & Helen Martin
Beachans
Born 2nd December 1893. Reported Missing
Mesnil-Le-Petit, Near St Quentin
25th March 1918

[dhubthaigh]

Inventory of Personal Estate

[Matlock1418]

13 minutes ago, dhubthaigh said:

Mesnil-Le-Petit, Near St Quentin

Better photo! - You got it - better than my guess!  Not far from Curchy.

On 09/07/2023 at 15:01, PRC said:

So the 61st Brigade War Diary for the period might be a good place to start for a guide to where the 25th Entrenching Battalion might have been on the 25th March 1918. Unlikely to mention 2\Lt Martin by name, but may give an idea as to casualties.

March to May 1918 can be found here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14054118

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/1c92088255cb44449e4700a826aacfd8

A bit more on the 25th Entrenching Bn - from 1927 looks like info for an official war history or similar - but, though there is a list of officers, D. A. MARTIN doesn't seem included

M

Edited 11 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
add Curchy

[rolt968]

22 minutes ago, dhubthaigh said:

Inventory of Personal Estate

That's Scottish probate (or whatever it's called - I should know). I wonder what evidence of death was produced. Although I have never seen them I believe there are Engish equivalents of the Scottish Minor Records/ Service Returns/ Death Records.

A legal nicety: Isn't one of the points of Prbate to declare someone legally dead?

RM

[rolt968]

This is the entry in the English Probate Register (ancestry):

RM

[johntanner]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Better photo! - You got it - better than my guess!  Not far from Curchy.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/1c92088255cb44449e4700a826aacfd8

A bit more on the 25th Entrenching Bn - from 1927 looks like info for an official war history or similar - but, though there is a list of officers, D. A. MARTIN doesn't seem included

M

The reference to the Bn History is that of 2/1 Bucks Bn written by Captain Ivor Stewart Liberty. I’ve only seen one copy, which was in the reserve collection of the Bucks County Library, Aylesbury, in the late 1970s - early 1980s. It was, I think, privately published and I’ve not been able to track down a copy since. 
 

Maybe another Forum Pal has been luckier. It is referenced at footnote 1 in the Chronicle extract I posted at 14:35 on Sunday.