Seeking Information on Two of My Great Uncles

[Lynn Paton]

Hello there, 

I'm busy researching my family tree, and have found that I have two great uncles who served with Northumberland Fusiliers. William Hopwood was killed in action France and Flanders 1916. My other uncle Michael Elder was, I believe, POW and from records I have seen was sent to Giessen. He died on 28th November 1918 and was interred in Cologne Southern Cemetery in Germany. He served with northumberland fusiliers 2nd battalion. I'm planning to visit Cologne this November to pay my respects to my great uncle. Can anyone help me retrace his movements? How would he have been interred in Cologne if he was in Camp Giessen? Would he have been moved there? 

I'm very interested and passionate and would love to have others points of view,  maybe my uncle was in poor condition? Would he have received treatment? 

I thank you for taking time to read this post and I'm grateful for any help and advice. 

[PRC]

30 minutes ago, Lynn Paton said:

How would he have been interred in Cologne if he was in Camp Giessen? Would he have been moved there? 

The CWGC webpage for the Cemetery includes in the history section that "In 1922 it was decided that the graves of Commonwealth servicemen who had died all over Germany should be brought together into four permanent cemeteries at Kassel, Berlin, Hamburg and Cologne. Over the course of the following year, graves were transferred to Cologne Southern Cemetery from over 180 different burial grounds in Hanover, Hessen, the Rhine and Westphalia. " https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/34600/cologne-southern-cemetery/

If you look at the first Grave Registration document on his CWGC webpage it states at the top that all the graves listed are "Concentrations"

Image courtesy the Commonwealth War Graves Commission https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/901408/m-elder/

I may be missing something but can't see anything on the other documents to show where he was relocated from. It may be that the ICRC documents for some of the other names may have details of where they were originally interred. Looking at the map it would seem likely that graves at Giessen would have been relocated to Cologne rather than the other three permanent cemeteries.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 6 June , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[Lynn Paton]

Thankyou for that information Peter, it's making a bit more sense now. Thanks 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum Lynn. It would be an idea if you create a separate thread for William Hopwood as it could get a bit confused otherwise. 

[busterfield]

ICRC records I haven't done German for 50 years.

[PRC]

Looks like there are several International Committee of the Red Cross cards for him.

1. Enquiry from the family - no German document references. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1476296/3/2/

2. A report from the Germans dated 26th February 1919 and given ICRC reference PA 42810 which doesn't given unit details, records that he had died but with no date and had the information coming from the camp at Giessen. Cause of death was "Infolge Lungenentzundung" which Google translate shows as "As a result of pneumonia". https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4361843/3/2/

3. A report from the Germans dated 12th February 1919 and given ICRC reference PA 42736 where place of death looks like "Helenen-Stift zu Hachenburg"

Image courtesy the International Committee of the Red Cross https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4361843/3/2/

4. Another card for report PA 42736 https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1732331/3/2/

Looks like @busterfield types quicker than I do

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 6 June , 2023 by PRC
Typos and add correct link

[busterfield]

I was waiting for Michelle to finish before I pressed submit.

[Lynn Paton]

Can I say a great big thankyou to you all for the imformation and help you have given on my great uncles, and I will create a separate thread for great uncle William, thanks Michelle. What you all have provided so far is of extreme value, I'm very grateful. It now makes more sense to me, thanks all.

[PRC]

I see FindMyPast has something indexed as service records for him as M Elder. I couldn't see anything equivalent indexed either as a Service Record or a Pension Record on Ancestry so I suspect it is one of the instances where they have found a memo or possible even the back of a bit of scrap paper that contains a very brief reference to him.

The ICRC records didn't appear to contain any reference to when or where he was captured, so I'd assumed later in 1918 when the German recording system began to break down. I don't subscribe to FMP but I noticed in their newspapers section there was one potential reference to him in a casualty list - but it was in 1915.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Checking out The Times for the same date shows him as one of a long list of 2nd Battalion men recorded as missing.

Image courtesy The Times Digital Archive

Struggling a bit to quickly find matches on CWGC but 2244 Charles Birkitt, 8938 Thomas Bowman and 1387 Thomas Boyd all died on the 8th May 1915.
So some of the other names may well have ICRC records. If Michael Elder was captured in May 1915 it may be possible to identify what happened in the intervening three years from those - including a possible name mis-match for him on the reports received from the Germans.

Cheers,
Peter

[Lynn Paton]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

I see FindMyPast has something indexed as service records for him as M Elder. I couldn't see anything equivalent indexed either as a Service Record or a Pension Record on Ancestry so I suspect it is one of the instances where they have found a memo or possible even the back of a bit of scrap paper that contains a very brief reference to him.

The ICRC records didn't appear to contain any reference to when or where he was captured, so I'd assumed later in 1918 when the German recording system began to break down. I don't subscribe to FMP but I noticed in their newspapers section there was one potential reference to him in a casualty list - but it was in 1915.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Checking out The Times for the same date shows him as one of a long list of 2nd Battalion men recorded as missing.

Image courtesy The Times Digital Archive

Struggling a bit to quickly find matches on CWGC but 2244 Charles Birkitt, 8938 Thomas Bowman and 1387 Thomas Boyd all died on the 8th May 1915.
So some of the other names may well have ICRC records. If Michael Elder was captured in May 1915 it may be possible to identify what happened in the intervening three years from those - including a possible name mis-match for him on the reports received from the Germans.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter you're all so helpful 

[PRC]

I've tried going on with the names in that Official Casualty Lists after Michael Elder and having either found they died on the 8th May 1915 or had no obvious ICRC record I got to "Fairweather 9137 D" - his Medal Index Card actually shows him as 3/9137 David Fairweather.

There is an ICRC record card for a David Fairweather, 5th R Northumberland who was a prisoner of the Germans. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5831598/3/2/
While that might be interpreted at the 5th Battalion of the Northumberland Fusiliers it may help to know that before Infantry Regiments adopted names, the Northumberland Fusiliers were the 5th Regiment of Foot - and that is what I believe is being referred to here.

The first (undated) German report that mentions him was given the reference PA 2643 when it was received in Geneva on the 7th July 1915. It's page 8 of a multipage report, the page 1 of which shows it to be a report from the Commandant of Giessen camp of all prisoners then held there. Looking down the page there are some candidates for the other names in the official casualty list - George Forrest, William Forrest, Richard Foster, Arthur Fowle, Nicholson Freeman and John Frith - all "5. Northumb R \ 5. North R" and all captured at "Ypern".

Image courtesy the International Committee of the Red Cross.https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/5831598/698/2643/

But when I scroll back to the page with the "E" surnames on it there is no obvious candidate for Michael Elder.

A second report referenced on the card for David Fairweather, PA 5728, received 16th August 1916, is just a record of him being admitted to the camp hospital at Giessen.

Scrolling through the whole of July 1915 dated report the name that stood out as a potential for error was Michael Mac Alder, a Private of 5. Norrh. R. whose home town was Newcastle - report page PA 2652. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/5831598/698/2652/

That name does not appear on the crop of the The Times Casualty List that I posted. He also doesn't appear to have an ICRC card as Mac Alder \ Mcalder or Alder. Nor am I finding a Medal Index Card for anyone of that name, regardless of unit, although with so many potential variations it's difficult to be sure I've covered them all.

So if Michael Elder was captured on the 8th May 1915 at Ypres while serving with the 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers, it looks like he and the rest of the men captured were moved relatively quickly to Giessen , and then for some unknown reason he (probably) entered the administrative system with his surname rendered as Mac Alder.

Hope that makes sense,
Peter

[RussT]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

I see FindMyPast has something indexed as service records for him as M Elder. I couldn't see anything equivalent indexed either as a Service Record or a Pension Record on Ancestry so I suspect it is one of the instances where they have found a memo or possible even the back of a bit of scrap paper that contains a very brief reference to him

It's actually a List of PoWs - but it's undated.

The 3rd man on the list is 30855 Michael Wright RFA, who has a Service Record. It reveals that he was captured in April 1915 - so the List is likely to originate from around that date (or later, obviously) I would think.

Regards

Russ

(Images courtesy of FMP)

 

[PRC]

15 minutes ago, RussT said:

It's actually a List of PoWs - but it's undated.

The 3rd man on the list is 30855 Michael Wright RFA, who has a Service Record. It reveals that he was captured in April 1915 - so the List is likely to originate from around that date (or later, obviously) I would think.

Thanks for checking Russ.

@Lynn Paton does his capture in May 1915 tie in with what you know?

If so is that part of his story also of interest to you?

Cheers,
Peter

[Lynn Paton]

Hi Peter,  as far as I can figure out, and thats just literally from records from Find my Past and Ancestry, Michael joined the Army on 6th March 1915, He was aged 20 then. The only other records I have looked at were very basic information, where it mentions France/Flanders. There is a photo of his headstone on find a grave. You have all been great today in filling in the gaps for me, I plan to write Michaels wartime story, visit cologne southern cemetery to pay respects and make sure he is never forgotten through future generations. He was awarded British Victory Medal, unfortunately all the Elders have passed now so I'm unsure as to what happened to this which is a great shame. They do say that researching a mispelled name provides more information, I do believe I mentioned earlier that I'm not really Tech Savvy ***, and when I  try to access other information from different sites, newspapers, etc, I'm drawing a blank. Thankyou all for your superb help today, it touches my heart. You are all brilliant at what you do.

Much appreciated 

Lynn 

[RussT]

11 minutes ago, Lynn Paton said:

Michael joined the Army on 6th March 1915,

That's not correct - that is the date he landed in France (as per his MIC)

He originally joined the 3rd Battalion NF as a Special Reservist (as per his Service Number 3/8669) - I should be able to provide an approximate enlistment date shortly.

11 minutes ago, Lynn Paton said:

He was awarded British Victory Medal

He was awarded the 1914/1915 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

The NF Database on FMP (compiled by GWF Member Graeme Stewart) tells us he became a PoW in June 1915.

Regards

Russ

[Michelle Young]

Just to back up what Russ has said re his MIC, courtesy of Ancestry.

[Michelle Young]

War diaries here, free to download after free registration. 
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353524

[Lynn Paton]

Thanks Michelle, I have seen this document, and thankyou for the link to national archives. 

Lynn 

[RussT]

I would estimate his enlistment date at the end of August/early September 1914

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

His £20 War Gratuity is commensurate with the above estimated enlistment date.

Russ

[PRC]

The 2nd Battalion were in India at the start of the war and didn't return to the UK until the 22nd December 1914, proceeding to France on the 18th January 1915. So if Michael didn't go to France until the 6th March 1915 he would have done all his initial training in the UK with another Battalion - almost certainly the 3rd. After mobilisation the 3rd Battalion had moved to East Boldon. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/northumberland-fusiliers/

The March 1915 2nd Battalion War Diary does not reference the arrival of any drafts, but that may just have been seen as something that wasn't noteworthy.

That Official Casualty List from the edition of The Times dated 19th June 1915 showing the missing of the 2nd Battalion features a number of individuals who died on the 8th May 1915, have no known grave and are remembered on the Ypres Menin Gate Memorial. As a general rule the information in these Official Casualty Lists for Other Ranks took at least four weeks to come through and often longer, so it is very unlikely that any of the individuals listed were taken prisoner in June.

The 8th May 1915 would prove fairly disasterous for the 2nd Battalion, although probably the other infantry battalions of their brigade suffered even worse. Many of the officers were either prisoner, wounded or dead, and the totals for the other ranks were given as 12 killed, 126 wounded and 284 missing. The following day only 116 OR's were recorded coming out of the line.

From Arthur Conan Doyles' "The British Campaign in France and Flanders, Volume II" on the events of the 8th.

It has already been described how the 83rd Brigade had been driven back by the extreme weight of the German advance. Their fellow brigade upon the left, the 84th (Bowes), had a similar experience. They also held their line under heavy losses, and were finally, shortly after mid-day, compelled to retire. The flank regiment on the right, the 1st Suffolk, were cut off and destroyed even as their second battalion had been at Le Cateau.

At this time the 1st Suffolk was so reduced by the losses sustained when it had formed part of Wallace's detachment, as described in the last chapter, that there were fewer than 300 men with the Colours.

When the Germans broke through the left flank of the 83rd Brigade they got partly to the rear of the Suffolk trenches. The survivors of the Suffolks were crowded down the trench and mixed up with the 2nd Cheshires, who were their immediate neighbours. The parapets were wrecked, the trenches full of debris, the air polluted with gas, and the Germans pushing forward on the flank, holding before them the prisoners that they had just taken from the 83rd Brigade. It is little wonder that in these circumstances this most gallant battalion was overwhelmed. Colonel Wallace and 130 men were taken. The 2nd Northumberland Fusiliers and the 1st Monmouths sustained also very heavy losses, as did the 12th London Rangers. The shattered remains of the brigade were compelled to fall back in conformity with the 83rd upon the right, sustaining fresh losses as they were swept with artillery fire on emerging from the trenches. This was about 11:30 in the morning. The 1st Monmouths upon the left of the line seem, however, to have kept up their resistance till a considerably later hour, and to have behaved with extraordinary gallantry. Outflanked and attacked in the rear after the Germans had taken the trenches on the right, they still, under their gallant Colonel Robinson, persevered in what was really a hopeless resistance. The Germans trained a machine-gun upon them from a house which overlooked their trench, but nothing could shift the gallant miners who formed the greater part of the regiment. Colonel Robinson was shot dead while passing his men down the trench one by one in the hope of forming a new front. Half the officers and men were already on the ground. The German stormers were on the top of them with cries of "Surrender! Surrender!" "Surrender be damned!" shouted Captain Edwards, and died still firing his revolver into the grey of them. It was a fine feat of arms, but only 120 men out of 750 reassembled that night. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks12/1202561h.html

Cheers,
Peter

[Lynn Paton]

Hi Peter,  Can I thank both you and Russ for all the information you gave me yesterday, it was very much appreciated and extremely helpful. I have made a £50 donation to the forum for all your hard work and effort. You're both brilliant at what you do, and the donation only goes a small way to help with the running costs, but every little helps ***. I will attempt over the next few days to post info that I have on my other great uncle and hopefully retrace his steps.

Thankyou both once again

Lynn Paton (nee Elder)

[Michelle Young]

Many thanks for your generous donation Lynn. 

[Lynn Paton]

Your very welcome,  and thankyou also Michelle you've been great too.

Thankyou 

Lynn