Help with uniform and or medals, please?

[albert arnold]

Hello all, I've had a lot of success in the past tracking down information about my ancestors thanks to the expertise of members here, and I'm wondering if anyone can help me with this photo. It is part of our family collection but we don't know who it is. We have Scottish ancestors, so this is probably/possibly one of them ... is it possible to identify anything about his regiment from the uniform or cap badge? Can anyone work out what the medal ribbon contains? When would such medals have been awarded for him to wear them. The photo is inside a cover showing it was taken by Lafayette's, but not where. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

[RNCVR]

Medal ribbons are MM(Military medal) & 1914 or 1914-15 star.

@FROGSMILE  will be along shortly  to ID his Scottish Regt.

[Robin Garrett]

I'd guess Royal Scots

[albert arnold]

Hi RNCVR, Thanks very much for your super speedy reply. That's very helpful. Do you know if the fact that he is wearing those medals helps us to date the photo at all - e.g. what would the earliest date be for wearing the 1914 or 1914-15 star?

[RNCVR]

1919 for the star. He appears to be wearing an officers uniform, thus perhaps commissioned during war. MM could only be won by OR's - other ranks.

[albert arnold]

Thanks again RNCVR, this is more like being on WhatsApp, incredible ...  that's helpful I'll look forward to seeing what @FROGSMILE thinks about the uniform

[Michelle Young]

I would say Royal Scots too. 

[TullochArd]

18 hours ago, albert arnold said:

Do you know if the fact that he is wearing those medals helps us to date the photo at all - e.g. what would the earliest date be for wearing the 1914 or 1914-15 star?

Royal Scots. Commissioned officer as indicated by the staff badge (below) and bronze collar dogs..  Prior distinguished medallic recognition as an OR as indicated by a Military Medal,  SD Jacket shows this image is likely an earlier War photograph as cuff rank is worn ........ that is no rank badges on epaulettes.  14 Star ribbon (as worn from 1918 with no rosette up to 1919 and then with rosette) or a 14/15 Star (worn from 1919 and always without a rosette).  I reckon this photo pre-dates this. The absence of a BWM/BVM puts the photo as before late 1919.

Edited 29 May , 2023 by TullochArd
....... spelling

[albert arnold]

Hello TullochArd, Thank you very much for your detailed reply. It's helpful to know that he was an officer and that he had won the MM. Can I just check a couple of things with you, please? If this is a 14 Star ribbon worn from 1918, could this mean that this person did not necessarily survive the war? In other words, was this medal already worn before the end of the war? And, if the type of jacket suggests an earlier date, how much earlier could this be to fit in with the possible (later) dates of the medals? Or might he just have been wearing an earlier-type jacket? Thanks for your insights so far; dating the photo more or less might help us to work out who it is! Albert

3 hours ago, Robin Garrett said:

I'd guess Royal Scots

Thanks for your input here, Robin. This is clearly the consensus!

[albert arnold]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

I would say Royal Scots too. 

Thanks Michelle, everyone agrees on this. Very helpful.

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, albert arnold said:

If this is a 14 Star ribbon worn from 1918, could this mean that this person did not necessarily survive the war?

You would have to determine if there is a MIC (medal) card for him. If he was a casualty it would be noted on this card. It would likely also indicate when he was commissioned.

In other words, was this medal already worn before the end of the war?

Medals were issued post war, the 1914 & 1914-15 star first -1919 into 1920, then early 1920's the British war & Victory medals. 

 

 

Edited 28 May , 2023 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Medal ribbons are MM(Military medal) & 1914 or 1914-15 star.

@FROGSMILE  will be along shortly  to ID his Scottish Regt.

All done I think Bryan and I concur with the collective findings.  It’s a cracking quality photograph too.

I enclose another Royal Scots officer and bronze collar badges as a comparison.

Regards…

Edited 28 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[albert arnold]

Thanks to RNCVR and Frogsmile for your further inputs on this. Fantastic photos too, Frogsmile. All very helpful. So... we know he served initially as an OR (to be awarded the MM) but must then have been commissioned as an officer in the Royal Scots (rank unknown). He was on active service in the early part of the war (hence the 1914 or 1914-15 Star) but lived long enough to be awarded and wear this star. If it's the 1914 star, this photo could have been taken before the end of the war; if the 1914-15 Star, this photo dates from after the war, but before the BWM and BVM were instituted in 1919. And of course he's in uniform, so either he stayed in the army or the photo was taken before he was demobilised. Does all that make sense? Now I just need to find a name ...

[albert arnold]

10 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 

Sorry, RNCVR, I missed the final part of your post about the dates the medals were awarded. I was basing what I said on TullochArd's earlier comment. Thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, albert arnold said:

Thanks to RNCVR and Frogsmile for your further inputs on this. Fantastic photos too, Frogsmile. All very helpful. So... we know he served initially as an OR (to be awarded the MM) but must then have been commissioned as an officer in the Royal Scots (rank unknown). He was on active service in the early part of the war (hence the 1914 or 1914-15 Star) but lived long enough to be awarded and wear this star. If it's the 1914 star, this photo could have been taken before the end of the war; if the 1914-15 Star, this photo dates from after the war, but before the BWM and BVM were instituted in 1919. And of course he's in uniform, so either he stayed in the army or the photo was taken before he was demobilised. Does all that make sense? Now I just need to find a name ...

Yes I think you have summarised the situation very well.  If he was a regular soldier before the war then he might have continued in service, but if a wartime enlistee its statistically less likely for a man commissioned from the ranks.  He is likely a junior officer below field rank and thus probably a subaltern (lieutenant), or captain.

I suspect it’s probably a survivor’s portrait photograph (celebrating making it through), taken after the Armistice and before the end of 1919.

Edited 29 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[albert arnold]

Thanks, Frogsmile. When you say "he might have continued in service" do you mean after the war? Yes, "a survivor's portrait photograph" sounds extremely likely ...

Edited 29 May , 2023 by albert arnold

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, albert arnold said:

Thanks, Frogsmile. When you say "he might have continued in service" do you mean after the war? Yes, "a survivor's portrait photograph" sounds extremely likely ...

Yes, after the war.  The bulk of wartime soldiers were demobilised in March 1919, as the government was keen to return to a peacetime economy, not least because of the vast national debt that had been accrued.  But this had to be done in a way that allowed for the garrisons of the Empire to be maintained (albeit reduced where possible) while at the same time meeting the requirements of foreign policy in places like Russia,Turkey and the Middle East, where areas for oil production were being carved up by the victorious powers.  Two particular problem areas were the large numbers of brigadier generals and colonels on the one hand, and the enormous number of hostilities only junior officers on the other.  Some of these groups wanted to continue to serve and sorting the wheat from the chaff became an enduring issue for the War Office to manage.

Edited 29 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[albert arnold]

That's very interesting and informative, Frogsmile, thanks for your input.

 

[clk]

Hi Albert,

23 minutes ago, albert arnold said:

Now I just need to find a name ...

Given the MM award, the December 1919 Army List might give you a starting point...

 

 

Images sourced from the National Library of Scotland

Regards
Chris

[TullochArd]

As RCNVR states the  issue of medal ribbon preceded the actual arrival of the medal and I would add by a long stretch.  Entitlement to the ribbon, and authority to wear it, was set out in Army Order No. 350 of November 1917.  The next stage was the issue of ribbon to those qualified - in one instance Hansard explains that "10,600 yards were sent out to France during January and February, (of 1918) sufficient for a preliminary issue* to 95,400 men.  It is therefore conceivable that some officers and men could be wearing the 14 Star ribbon as early as November/December 1917 - particularly for significant events or photo opportunities and most particularly if their wallet was within range of a civilian military tailor.

Without a name it will be hard to decide if this was a 14 Star or a 14/15 Star.  Must say clk's contribution (above) is fascinating.

-----------------------

* I couldn't resist the minutiae here...... 10600 yds x 36" divided by 95400 recipients equals an initial issue of 4" of ribbon - enough for two ribbons.

[albert arnold]

3 hours ago, clk said:

Given the MM award, the December 1919 Army List might give you a starting point...

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for this amazing contribution. I must say I had been beginning to think that Royal Scots officers who had won the MM must be a slightly limited field, but I didn't think I'd find out so much so quickly!

Can I ask you a couple of questions about this, please?

Can you tell me what the date refers to in each entry?

And would you say this is all of the officers who fit these criteria, or is this just a sample?

Thank you again for going to so much trouble on my behalf, Albert

[albert arnold]

2 hours ago, TullochArd said:

As RCNVR states the  issue of medal ribbon preceded the actual arrival of the medal and I would add by a long stretch.  Entitlement to the ribbon, and authority to wear it, was set out in Army Order No. 350 of November 1917.  The next stage was the issue of ribbon to those qualified - in one instance Hansard explains that "10,600 yards were sent out to France during January and February, (of 1918) sufficient for a preliminary issue* to 95,400 men.  It is therefore conceivable that some officers and men could be wearing the 14 Star ribbon as early as November/December 1917 - particularly for significant events or photo opportunities and most particularly if their wallet was within range of a civilian military tailor.

Many thanks TullochArd, I love the minutiae! This is more very helpful information ... Amazing to think of 6 miles of the ribbon being sent to France. And this gives us the earliest date that this photo could have been taken ... Best, Albert

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, albert arnold said:

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for this amazing contribution. I must say I had been beginning to think that Royal Scots officers who had won the MM must be a slightly limited field, but I didn't think I'd find out so much so quickly!

Can I ask you a couple of questions about this, please?

Can you tell me what the date refers to in each entry?

And would you say this is all of the officers who fit these criteria, or is this just a sample?

Thank you again for going to so much trouble on my behalf, Albert

The excerpts that Chris has very kindly extracted are from the Annual Army List and the dates are when the individual officers commission was notified in the London Gazette**.  This date determines each officer’s seniority.

** the government (State) organ for such personnel administration, including promotions, honours and awards, etc.

Edited 29 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[clk]

Hi Albert,

1 hour ago, albert arnold said:

And would you say this is all of the officers who fit these criteria, or is this just a sample?

I hope that I got them all, but it might be worth double checking. The December 1919 list which I used is available here. You can download the document by using the 'Colour composite text file(pdf)' option. Once saved on your computer, in my copy, the Royal Scots starts on p541/2866. At the start of the relevant section, I used "M.M." in the dialog box of 'Find on page'. I didn't, but I guess that you could cross check the results against another list.

Regards
Chris

[caladonia]

Hello there

I've adjusted the contrast and levels of this photo, and the officer seems to have a dark coloured rectangle patch on his left sleeve, this type of parch was worn by a couple of Batts of the Royal Scots, the 13th stands out as adopting the patch late  in the war, and perhaps be a good place for a officer promoted from the ranks?

William

 

Edited 29 May , 2023 by caladonia
wrong info