RNVR Service Record - assistance please

[KizmeRD]

Some of the barge combinations carrying shipments between Manchester and Liverpool were pretty big, and he might even have been a sort of tug master.
In any case, at the time he enlisted in the Minesweeping Service at EAGLET, he was obviously considered adequately qualified and experienced to assume the responsibilities of a coxswain on a minesweeper (or perhaps a buffer in charge of the sweepdeck).
Evidently a competent seaman, with leadership ability.

MB

[Uncle George]

46 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Apologies! I did not intend to imply that it was a training ship for boys entering the RN.

However I thnk that old "wooden walls" were supplied so readily as the industrial school ships in the belief (rightly or wrongly) that they might supply potential seamen to the Merchant Service and the RN. There was considerable discussion in parlliament at some stage in he late 19th century because the number of boys who went on to be seamen was so low. Far more boys from the industrial school ships went into the army. The Mount Edgecumbe for unknown reasons supplied the lowest proportion of seamen of all the industrial school ships.  Carradice has a rather fanciful theory.

To return to the point to the point: I wanted to bolster the point that coming from the Mount Edgecumbe Netherway is much more likely to have joined the Merchant Service than the RN.

William’s younger brother George had a similar upbringing (illegitimate, he was born in Devonport Workhouse) and followed William into Mount Edgecumbe. George DID join the RN. On his service record his character is described as VG but he was discharged after four years with “defective vision”. Both brothers lived in later life in Liverpool (KizmeRD makes reference to Liverpool upstream).

[Uncle George]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

 The Mount Edgecumbe for unknown reasons supplied the lowest proportion of seamen of all the industrial school ships.  Carradice has a rather fanciful theory.

Sorry, I meant to ask - what is Carradice’s fanciful theory?

[Uncle George]

1 hour ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

Training Ship Mount Edgecumbe moored off Saltash

Thank you for posting this - it seems smaller than as I envisioned it. I was brought up in Plymouth, so know the Tamar and Saltash well.

[rolt968]

21 hours ago, Uncle George said:

Sorry, I meant to ask - what is Carradice’s fanciful theory?

I'm not sure I have understood it clearly, but here goes:

• Although many/most of the boys on the industrial school ships had not committed any offence there was a certain stygma.
• "The influence of the Royal Navy was strong [in the area served by the Mount Edgecumbe] and there was a real passion for the Navy amonst most local lads. Possibly the very popularity of the Navy worked against the Mount Edgecumbe. Most boys had set their sights on the Royal Navy - the Merchant Navy was very much a secondary option. With such a huge catchment group, the Royal Navy could afford to be choosy." (Carradice).

I'm not sure that explains why they didn't go for the Merchant Service.

He quotes the Deprtmental Committee on Reformatory and Industrial Schools Report fof 1913. It quotes the destinations/disposals of boys who left at Industrial School Ships at the end of 1911: 163 to the Royal Navy, 246 to the Marchant Navy (including 51 to the coastal trade and 52 to the fishing fleet). 538 joined the army. He does not say what the total number leaving was, but hed does quote figures for1888 to 1890 when the Mount Edgecumbe averaged only 27.53% of leavers goin to sea -muc lower than any other industrial school ship.

The concern expressed in some quarters in the late 19th century about the relatively low number of boys from industrial school ships taking up a maritime career was because it was more expensive to maintain boys on the school ships than in land based industrial schools.

RM

 

 

[Uncle George]

41 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

I'm not sure I have understood it clearly, but here goes:

• Although many/most of the boys on the industrial school ships had not committed any offence there was a certain stygma.
• "The influence of the Royal Navy was strong [in the area served by the Mount Edgecumbe] and there was a real passion for the Navy amonst most local lads. Possibly the very popularity of the Navy worked against the Mount Edgecumbe. Most boys had set their sights on the Royal Navy - the Merchant Navy was very much a secondary option. With such a huge catchment group, the Royal Navy could afford to be choosy." (Carradice).

I'm not sure that explains why they didn't go for the Merchant Service.

He quotes the Deprtmental Committee on Reformatory and Industrial Schools Report fof 1913. It quotes the destinations/disposals of boys who left at Industrial School Ships at the end of 1911: 163 to the Royal Navy, 246 to the Marchant Navy (including 51 to the coastal trade and 52 to the fishing fleet). 538 joined the army. He does not say what the total number leaving was, but hed does quote figures for1888 to 1890 when the Mount Edgecumbe averaged only 27.53% of leavers goin to sea -muc lower than any other industrial school ship.

The concern expressed in some quarters in the late 19th century about the relatively low number of boys from industrial school ships taking up a maritime career was because it was more expensive to maintain boys on the school ships than in land based industrial schools.

RM

 

 

Thanks. That’s a very interesting subject. My own family in the 19th and early 20th Century lived in Devonport and went into the Royal Navy down the generations. Thence to the Yard. It may be that direct employment in the Yard, skilled and unskilled, was more attractive to the Mount Edgecumbe boys, than going to sea.

[KizmeRD]

Attending an Industrial School Ship wasn’t a voluntary career decision. Homeless and destitute boys found in troubling circumstances were simply taken away and sent there, by order of a Magistrate (in order to remove them from a situation that would otherwise only end badly). 

In order to meet the entry criteria for Mount Edgcumbe a boy must be under 14 and fit one or other of the following descriptions…

(1) be found begging

(2) be found wandering, without having any home or place of abode or visible means of subsistence

(3) be found destitute, being an orphan, or having a surviving parent in prison

(4) frequenting the company of thieves

Some of the boys took full advantage of the training that they were given to make a career for themselves (at sea) and build a better life, some went on to join the army, or find jobs on land (possibly in the dockyard), others returned to their old environments and fell prey once again to bad influences. 
 

MB

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 May , 2023 by KizmeRD

[MerchantOldSalt]

On 30/04/2023 at 18:53, Uncle George said:

Thanks - I did wonder.

But, dammit, just as I thought we’d established he had no prior RN service, further delving into Ancestry shows ‘Dreadnought Seamen’s Hospital Admissions and Discharges’ - he would appear to be an AB in 1899, I can’t read the handwriting in the entry for his Ship, or indeed for his address, or the Nature of his Complaint. 

How infuriating this business is!

When he was admitted to the Dreadnought Hospital in 1899, Netherway was serving as an AB on the RAVENSCRAG, Captain Biggam, a "ship" rigged sailing vessel of 1169 Register Tons owned by Thomas G Mabane of South Shields and registered in that port.  She was involved in the immigrant trade carrying Portuguese labourers from Funchal, Madeira and the Azores to Hawaii and is quite well known, google her name for further information.

He was in hospital for 14 days suffering from a curable,, but unpleasant, sexually transmitted disease!

So certainly a Merchant Seaman from the beginning of his career as he would have gone to sea around the age of 16 or 17 to be rated AB by the age of 21. His employment in the Manchester Ship Canal was probably a means to stay nearer home after his marriage as Merchant Seaman could be away from home for over two years in those days.  Having served in sail as well as steam he would have been a very experienced seafarer by the age of 40 as has been stated.

Tony

 

Edited 2 May , 2023 by MerchantOldSalt

[Uncle George]

58 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

When he was admitted to the Dreadnought Hospital in 1899, Netherway was serving as an AB on the RAVENSCRAG, Captain Biggam, a "ship" rigged sailing vessel of 1169 Register Tons owned by Thomas G Mabane of South Shields and registered in that port.  She was involved in the immigrant trade carrying Portuguese labourers from Funchal, Madeira and the Azores to Hawaii and is quite well known, google her name for further information.

He was in hospital for 14 days suffering from a curable,, but unpleasant, sexually transmitted disease!

So certainly a Merchant Seaman from the beginning of his career as he would have gone to sea around the age of 16 or 17 to be rated AB by the age of 21. His employment in the Manchester Ship Canal was probably a means to stay nearer home after his marriage as Merchant Seaman could be away from home for over two years in those days.  Having served in sail as well as steam he would have been a very experienced seafarer by the age of 40 as has been stated.

Tony

 

That’s marvelous, thank you so much. I couldn’t read that handwriting on the Hospital record for the life of me. And a very interesting Wiki page on the ‘Ravenscrag’!

[horatio2]

On 30/04/2023 at 17:49, horatio2 said:

Although his record is lodged at TNA among RNVR records (ADM 337), he (and the other 2,600+ 'MC' ratings) were not actually RNVR. Note the "RNVR" notation on the record.

I return briefly to the RN/RNVR status. It should be noted that the awards of post-war campaign medals (Victory and British War Medals)  to 'MC' ratings of the MineClearance Service are included in the Admiralty Medal Rolls for RN ratings [ADM 171/94-119], confirming their non-RNVR status.

However, not all 'MC'ratings qualified for medals. The criteria seem to be quite strict. The rules (originally formulated for BWM Clasps) for wartime mimesweeping were that a medal applicant must have been "... one of the official crew of a vessel employed regularly as a minesweeper ... [amd] the applicant's vessel formed one of a Minesweeping Unit which swept up enemy's moored mines when the applicant was present in that vessel. [my emphasis]" It seems that these rules were carried forward to the post-war MCS even though the idea of BWM Claps was eventually dropped.

Thus, MCS ratings could qualify for the BWM, under the 'hot minesweeping'  rules above and, and also for the Victory Medal. In AFO 2769/1920.—Victory Medal—Award for Post-Armistice Operations - it was ordered that "... post-Armistice operations which qualify for the award of a Naval Clasp to the British War Medal shall also be regarded as qualifying for the award of the Victory Medal."

In the case of Petty Officer Wm H NETHERWAY, he does not appear in the RN ratings' medal roll, presumably because he was never involved in 'hot minsweeping' during his MCS service in the Admiralty trawler HMS JOSEPH ANNISON.

[Uncle George]

9 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

I return briefly to the RN/RNVR status. It should be noted that the awards of post-war campaign medals (Victory and British War Medals)  to 'MC' ratings of the MineClearance Service are included in the Admiralty Medal Rolls for RN ratings [ADM 171/94-119], confirming their non-RNVR status.

However, not all 'MC'ratings qualified for medals. The criteria seem to be quite strict. The rules (originally formulated for BWM Clasps) for wartime mimesweeping were that a medal applicant must have been "... one of the official crew of a vessel employed regularly as a minesweeper ... [amd] the applicant's vessel formed one of a Minesweeping Unit which swept up enemy's moored mines when the applicant was present in that vessel. [my emphasis]" It seems that these rules were carried forward to the post-war MCS even though the idea of BWM Claps was eventually dropped.

Thus, MCS ratings could qualify for the BWM, under the 'hot minesweeping'  rules above and, and also for the Victory Medal. In AFO 2769/1920.—Victory Medal—Award for Post-Armistice Operations - it was ordered that "... post-Armistice operations which qualify for the award of a Naval Clasp to the British War Medal shall also be regarded as qualifying for the award of the Victory Medal."

In the case of Petty Officer Wm H NETHERWAY, he does not appear in the RN ratings' medal roll, presumably because he was never involved in 'hot minsweeping' during his MCS service in the Admiralty trawler HMS JOSEPH ANNISON.

Thank you. He is believed to have served with the RAMC during the First war - see upstream. KizmeRD has discovered service aboard HMHS Britannic. His RAMC MIC shows 1915 Star, BWM, VM. Would this not disbar him from a further, second award in any case? Or would he be entitled to the Naval Clasp which you mention, if he had been involved in ‘hot minesweeping’?

[rolt968]

4 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

When he was admitted to the Dreadnought Hospital in 1899, Netherway was serving as an AB on the RAVENSCRAG, Captain Biggam, a "ship" rigged sailing vessel of 1169 Register Tons owned by Thomas G Mabane of South Shields and registered in that port.  She was involved in the immigrant trade carrying Portuguese labourers from Funchal, Madeira and the Azores to Hawaii and is quite well known, google her name for further information.

He was in hospital for 14 days suffering from a curable,, but unpleasant, sexually transmitted disease!

So certainly a Merchant Seaman from the beginning of his career as he would have gone to sea around the age of 16 or 17 to be rated AB by the age of 21. His employment in the Manchester Ship Canal was probably a means to stay nearer home after his marriage as Merchant Seaman could be away from home for over two years in those days.  Having served in sail as well as steam he would have been a very experienced seafarer by the age of 40 as has been stated.

Tony

 

This is interesting. I can't make up my mind if there is anything in this or not:

In the 1888 to 1890 figures which Carradice quotes, two industrial school ships placed more than 70% of their leavers at sea. The second highest at an average of 70.41% over the three years was the Wellesley which was moored at North Shields.

RM

[horatio2]

36 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

Would this not disbar him from a further, second award in any case?

I assume so but if the Adfmiralty was not aware of his previous Army service, he might still appear on their roll.

38 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

Or would he be entitled to the Naval Clasp which you mention, if he had been involved in ‘hot minesweeping’?

No, because the BWM claps were never approved. The true situation remains unclear.

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

This is interesting. I can't make up my mind if there is anything in this or not:

In the 1888 to 1890 figures which Carradice quotes, two industrial school ships placed more than 70% of their leavers at sea. The second highest at an average of 70.41% over the three years was the Wellesley which was moored at North Shields.

RM

There is bound to be a range of values, and somebody has to be top of the league and others at the bottom.
Perhaps TS Wellesley was simply better at capturing the data, or did so in a different way to the other industrial school ships?

Not sure blank percentages prove anything and I don’t necessarily attach anything meaningful to Carradice’s ‘fanciful’ theory. 
- There was after all, only one school ship on the Tyne (TS Wellesby), so it made sense for them to advertise the fact that they provided training to boys to equip them for future careers in both the Royal Navy and the Merchant Marine, whereas on the Tamar you already had HMS Impregnable as the established direct entry route for boys wishing to join the Royal Navy, therefore that left TS Mount Edgcumbe free to focus on training boys for the merchant marine and fishing industry.

MB

[Uncle George]

William Henry Netherway 46121 appears on the Silver War Badge Roll, from which we learn that he enlisted in the RAMC on 4 November 1914 and was discharged on 29 March 1917 as “ no longer physically fit for War Service”. As we have seen, his service with the Mine Clearance Service commenced on 1 April 1919.

Again, my thanks for all help given.

[KizmeRD]

Can only assume that he received certain injuries consequent on the sinking of HMHS Britannic.

Apart from those that died, there wer 38 injured survivors (18 crew and 20 RAMC).

http://hmhsbritannic.weebly.com/aftermath.html

MB

Edited 4 May , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Uncle George]

5 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Can only assume that he received certain injuries consequent on the sinking of HMHS Britannic.

MB

Sorry I should have said, the record indicates “Sickness” and quotes “Para 392 XVI KR”.

[MerchantOldSalt]

5 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Can only assume that he received certain injuries consequent on the sinking of HMHS Britannic.

MB

The reason for his discharge from the RAMC according to his pension record was cirrhosis of the liver.

Tony

[Uncle George]

5 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

The reason for his discharge from the RAMC according to his pension record was cirrhosis of the liver.

Tony

Thanks.

[KizmeRD]

I’ve been trying to see the best in this chap, despite certain indicators that suggest he might not have been the perfect gentleman🤫

MB

[Uncle George]

4 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

I’ve been trying to see the best in this chap, despite certain indicators that suggest he might not have been the perfect gentleman🤫

MB

Matthew 7:1 😊

[MerchantOldSalt]

6 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

I’ve been trying to see the best in this chap, despite certain indicators that suggest he might not have been the perfect gentleman🤫

MB

In fairness, there are many other causes of this ailment other than that which you may be implying, so let's continue to see the best in him!

Tony

Edited 4 May , 2023 by MerchantOldSalt

[KizmeRD]

Could even have been a legacy condition arising from the earlier ailment that saw him admitted to Dreadnought Seamen’s Hospital (hepatitis?)

MB

Edited 4 May , 2023 by KizmeRD