RNVR Service Record - assistance please

[Uncle George]

I’m researching one William Henry Netherway, born in Devonport on 12 Apr 1878. His RNVR Service Record dated 1 April 1919 gives his No. MC 1095 (MC - does this mean Mine Clearance?) and his Rating as PO. (I am unable to find his record in the Register of Seamen’s Services, or indeed any service record, which is odd for a PO.)

On the Record where the Form asks ‘Whether formerly RM or RN’ neither is crossed out, but there’s a hand written ‘FE’(or what looks like FE).

What is the meaning of ‘FE’, please. I’ll be grateful for any assistance.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7713821

[Gunner 87]

30 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

I’m researching one William Henry Netherway, born in Devonport on 12 Apr 1878. His RNVR Service Record dated 1 April 1919 gives his No. MC 1095 (MC - does this mean Mine Clearance?) and his Rating as PO. (I am unable to find his record in the Register of Seamen’s Services, or indeed any service record, which is odd for a PO.)

On the Record where the Form asks ‘Whether formerly RM or RN’ neither is crossed out, but there’s a hand written ‘FE’(or what looks like FE).

What is the meaning of ‘FE’, please. I’ll be grateful for any assistance.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7713821

Hello. I am far from an expert on Royal Navy matters but looking at other records I think the 'FE' is actually 'TE' which is an abbreviation for 'Training Establishment', where the man has come from before arriving at his ship.

[Uncle George]

2 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Hello. I am far from an expert on Royal Navy matters but looking at other records I think the 'FE' is actually 'TE' which is an abbreviation for 'Training Establishment', where the man has come from before arriving at his ship.

Thanks for your help. Yes that could well be ‘TE’. 

[RNCVR]

It's FE = First Entry ( into the service)

MC likely Mine Clearance force.

[Gunner 87]

My apologies @Uncle George got that wrong  

[Uncle George]

19 hours ago, RNCVR said:

It's FE = First Entry ( into the service)

MC likely Mine Clearance force.

Thanks - that (sort of) fits what I can find about him. In 1891, age 12, he’s at the “Mount Edgecumbe” Industrial School Ship on the River Tamar. As I said upstream I can find no Service record for him - he doesn’t appear to be in the 1901 Census - and he’s a ‘Waterman’ in Liverpool on his 1908 Marriage Record, and what looks like a ‘Flatman Manchester Ship Canal’ in 1911.

But how could he be a PO in his First Entry?

Thanks again for your help.

19 hours ago, Gunner 87 said:

My apologies @Uncle George got that wrong  

Please don’t feel the need to apologise - I’m grateful for any help.

Edited 1 May , 2023 by Uncle George

[RNCVR]

He might have had prior RN or RNVR service, or even Merc Marine from his occuption.  He was over 40 yrs of age when he entered, which is somewhat old for entry.

 

 

[RNCVR]

@horatio2  is pretty good at these records, this will alert him to yr request...

Edited 30 April , 2023 by RNCVR

[Uncle George]

3 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

He might have had prior RN or RNVR service, or even Merc Marine from his occuption.  He was over 40 yrs of age when he entered, which is somewhat old for entry.

 

 

Thanks. Merc Marine looks favourite - if he had prior RN service, where his service record asks “Whether formerly RM or RN” would it not have indicated RN, rather than ‘First Entry’?

Again, I’m most grateful for your help.

 

1 minute ago, RNCVR said:

@horatio2  is pretty good at these records, this will alert him to yr request...

Cheers.

[RNCVR]

RN doubtful, I would think Merc Marine more likely given his occupation you gave stated.

 

[horatio2]

He did not have prior RN service (confirmed by FE notation). As suggested, his rating as PO on enlistment could be explained by earlier maritime experience.

Although his record is lodged at TNA among RNVR records (ADM 337), he (and the other 2,600+ 'MC' ratings) were not actually RNVR. Note the "RNVR" notation on the record. These men were explicitly engaged for the post-war Mine Clearance Service (MCS) which also drew on hundreds of RN ratings of various branches, as well as 'normal' RNVR ratings, including ratings of the RNVR Motor Boat Division and Newfoundland RNVR.

[Uncle George]

3 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

He did not have prior RN service (confirmed by FE notation). As suggested, his rating as PO on enlistment could be explained by earlier maritime experience.

Although his record is lodged at TNA among RNVR records (ADM 337), he (and the other 2,600+ 'MC' ratings) were not actually RNVR. Note the "RNVR" notation on the record. These men were explicitly engaged for the post-war Mine Clearance Service (MCS) which also drew on hundreds of RN ratings of various branches, as well as 'normal' RNVR ratings, including ratings of the RNVR Motor Boat Division and Newfoundland RNVR.

That’s very helpful - thanks very much indeed.

[KizmeRD]

A ‘flatman’ was a boatman who ran a flat-bottomed canal boat/barge, there were many such people employed at the time on the inland waterways of Cheshire and Lancashire.
As a former Mount Edgecumbe boy, he would have been well trained in seamanship and undoubtedly as tough as nails.

MB

Edited 30 April , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Uncle George]

12 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

A ‘flatman’ was a boatman who ran a flat-bottomed canal boat/barge, there were many such people employed at the time on the inland waterways of Cheshire and Lancashire.
As a former Mount Edgecombe boy, he would have been well trained in seamanship and undoubtedly as tough as nails.

MB

Thanks - I did wonder.

But, dammit, just as I thought we’d established he had no prior RN service, further delving into Ancestry shows ‘Dreadnought Seamen’s Hospital Admissions and Discharges’ - he would appear to be an AB in 1899, I can’t read the handwriting in the entry for his Ship, or indeed for his address, or the Nature of his Complaint. 

How infuriating this business is!

[KizmeRD]

The Dreadnought Seamen’s Hospital at Greenwich was the main site of the Seamen’s Hospital Society, founded with the philanthropic mission of providing relief to sick and injured seafarers of all nations (long before the NHS). You didn’t necessarily have to be in the Royal Navy to be admitted for treatment, and ‘AB’ was also a qualified seaman in the mercantile marine.

MB

[KizmeRD]

There was a Private William H. Netherway RAMC who served aboard HMHS Britannic during WW1.

MB

[Uncle George]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

The Dreadnought Seamen’s Hospital at Greenwich was the main site of the Seamen’s Hospital Society, founded with the philanthropic mission of providing relief to sick and injured seafarers of all nations (long before the NHS). You didn’t necessarily have to be in the Royal Navy to be admitted for treatment, and ‘AB’ was also a qualified seaman in the mercantile marine.

MB

Thanks - that word ‘Dreadnought’ made me assume it was strictly RN. You’ve been a big help, so thanks again.

34 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

There was a Private William H. Netherway RAMC who served aboard HMHS Britannic during WW1.

MB

Cheers - research continues apace!

[rolt968]

I have been checking something in Carradice's Nautical Training Ships, an illustrated history. "The Mount Edgecumbe was never very successful in placing boys into positions at sea and it is hard to account for this failing". It like nearly all the industrial school ships placed few boys in the Royal Navy. The figures for the industrial school ships are a bit complicated but it is worth noting that the figures they quote for the Merchant Service include the coastal trade (including tugs and barges). Therefore I also think it is much more likely that he served in the Merchant Service.

RM

Edited 1 May , 2023 by rolt968

[KizmeRD]

7 hours ago, rolt968 said:

I have been checking something in Carradice's Nautical Training Ships, an illustrated history. "The Mount Edgecumbe was never very successful in placing boys into positions at sea and it is hard to account for this failing". It like nearly all the industrial school ships placed few boys in the Royal Navy. The figures for the industrial school ships are a bit complicated but it is worth noting that the figures they quote for the Merchant Service include the coastal trade (including tugs and barges). Therefore I also think it is much more likely that he served in the Merchant Service.

RM

The Industrial School Ship ‘Mount Edgecumbe’ was never intended as a training ship for boys entering the Royal Navy - although many former pupils did in fact end up (indirectly) serving in both the army and the navy after leaving (what with the Boer Wars and WW1).

The school was originally set-up in 1877 as a facility to accommodate and train destitute and homeless boys from Devon & Cornwall (the catchment area later expanded to other counties and areas too, including London’s East-end). After appearing before a magistrate (not necessarily on any criminal charges) a boy could be sent to ‘Mount Edgecombe’ as a better alternative to their existing circumstances (note: it was not a Reform School for boys convicted of crimes). Boys aged 12-16 were provided with a basic academic education as well as special training in seamanship - but it also provided the boys with certain non-nautical skills too, such as training in tailoring and shoemaking/repair. It could accommodate up to 250 boys at any one time.

The ship was moored in the Tamar near Saltash, and there was an annual cutter race against the boys of HMS Impregnable, moored off Torpojnt. (HMS Impregnable was the training ship for boys entering the Royal Navy directly). Former ‘Mount Edgecome’ boys more often found employment in the local fishing community, or in the mercantile marine (there were agents in Cardiff and Liverpool docks who assisted in finding them appropriate employment).

The school closed in 1920 after concerns about welfare standards, and also due to the poor condition of the hulk.

MB

Edited 1 May , 2023 by KizmeRD

[MerchantOldSalt]

Netherway was  certainly a Merchant Seaman after the war, and if he is described as AB in 1899 probably before the war as well. 

There is a CR10, CR2 & CR1 Identity Card available on Findmypast which detail his career as an AB and QM (Quartermaster) from 1919 to 1927 CR10 attached courtesy of FMP.

His ships from 1919 - 1921 were:

Herefordshire  Bibby Line

Bogota   Pacific Steam Navigation

Andorinha    Yeoward Line

Author      Charente Steam Navigation

From 1922 - 1927 he serves Brocklebank Line exclusively, which fits with his Quartermaster status, a senior AB and "Company" Man more usually, but not exclusively, found on passenger or passenger/cargo ships, known as Intermediates

Maidan, Manaar, Magadapur, and Matra.

No Merchant Service Medal card is evident and he does not appear in the 1915 Crew lists so service in the Army is a possibility, many merchant seamen did, particularly as a Pension Card, already mentioned, to Private WH Netherway  RAMC No. 46121 shows his Claimant widowed wife as Lily, as on his Marriage Certificate of 1908.

Tony

 

[Uncle George]

9 hours ago, rolt968 said:

I have been checking something in Carradice's Nautical Training Ships, an illustrated history. "The Mount Edgecumbe was never very successful in placing boys into positions at sea and it is hard to account for this failing". It like nearly all the industrial school ships placed few boys in the Royal Navy. The figures for the industrial school ships are a bit complicated but it is worth noting that the figures they quote for the Merchant Service include the coastal trade (including tugs and barges). Therefore I also think it is much more likely that he served in the Merchant Service.

RM

Thanks. Yes, I think William served in the Merchant Service. He had a younger brother, George, like him illegitimate. George did serve with the RN, though discharged after four years with “defective vision”.

[Uncle George]

27 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

Netherway was  certainly a Merchant Seaman after the war, and if he is described as AB in 1899 probably before the war as well. 

There is a CR10, CR2 & CR1 Identity Card available on Findmypast which detail his career as an AB and QM (Quartermaster) from 1919 to 1927 CR10 attached courtesy of FMP.

His ships from 1919 - 1921 were:

Herefordshire  Bibby Line

Bogota   Pacific Steam Navigation

Andorinha    Yeoward Line

Author      Charente Steam Navigation

From 1922 - 1927 he serves Brocklebank Line exclusively, which fits with his Quartermaster status, a senior AB and "Company" Man more usually, but not exclusively, found on passenger or passenger/cargo ships, known as Intermediates

Maidan, Manaar, Magadapur, and Matra.

No Merchant Service Medal card is evident and he does not appear in the 1915 Crew lists so service in the Army is a possibility, many merchant seamen did, particularly as a Pension Card, already mentioned, to Private WH Netherway  RAMC No. 46121 shows his Claimant widowed wife as Lily, as on his Marriage Certificate of 1908.

Tony

 

That’s marvellous - and to have his photograph! Thanks very much indeed. Yes, his wife’s name Lily suggests First war service with RAMC.

[MerchantOldSalt]

Training Ship Mount Edgecumbe moored off Saltash

[rolt968]

4 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

The Industrial School Ship ‘Mount Edgecumbe’ was never intended as a training ship for boys entering the Royal Navy - although many former pupils did in fact end up (indirectly) serving in both the army and the navy after leaving (what with the Boer Wars and WW1).

The school was originally set-up in 1877 as a facility to accommodate and train destitute and homeless boys from Devon & Cornwall (the catchment area later expanded to other counties and areas too, including London’s East-end). After appearing before a magistrate (not necessarily on any criminal charges) a boy could be sent to ‘Mount Edgecombe’ as a better alternative to their existing circumstances (note: it was not a Reform School for boys convicted of crimes). Boys aged 12-16 were provided with a basic academic education as well as special training in seamanship - but it also provided the boys with certain non-nautical skills too, such as training in tailoring and shoemaking/repair. It could accommodate up to 250 boys at any one time.

The ship was moored in the Tamar near Saltash, and there was an annual cutter race against the boys of HMS Impregnable, moored off Torpojnt. (HMS Impregnable was the training ship for boys entering the Royal Navy directly). Former ‘Mount Edgecome’ boys more often found employment in the local fishing community, or in the mercantile marine (there were agents in Cardiff and Liverpool docks who assisted in finding them appropriate employment).

The school closed in 1920 after concerns about welfare standards, and also due to the poor condition of the hulk.

MB

Apologies! I did not intend to imply that it was a training ship for boys entering the RN.

However I thnk that old "wooden walls" were supplied so readily as the industrial school ships in the belief (rightly or wrongly) that they might supply potential seamen to the Merchant Service and the RN. There was considerable discussion in parlliament at some stage in he late 19th century because the number of boys who went on to be seamen was so low. Far more boys from the industrial school ships went into the army. The Mount Edgecumbe for unknown reasons supplied the lowest proportion of seamen of all the industrial school ships.  Carradice has a rather fanciful theory.

To return to the point to the point: I wanted to bolster the point that coming from the Mount Edgecumbe Netherway is much more likely to have joined the Merchant Service than the RN.

[rolt968]

I wonder what he actually did on the barges in Manchester {Ship Canal?). Would his responsibilities have led to his reating as petty officer?