Secondment to which RFC Squadron/Update lost records at NAKew ?

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear FionaBam and frogsmile,

Yes, indeed, good lines in Ads were important to understand as a Layouter in a German Ad Agency.

It is all somewhat ironical, because my Grandfather (see Avatar at left) had been wounded at Peronne, during the successful Australian attack on 1 Sep 1918, when he was Coy Cdr "D" Company (MC).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[FionaBam]

58 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear FionaBam and frogsmile,

Yes, indeed, good lines in Ads were important to understand as a Layouter in a German Ad Agency.

It is all somewhat ironical, because my Grandfather (see Avatar at left) had been wounded at Peronne, during the successful Australian attack on 1 Sep 1918, when he was Coy Cdr "D" Company (MC).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Your grandfather survived the battle at Peronne? So ...I dont want cause offence but...he was not laid out . So no problem or irony about you having been a Layouter in Allemagne.

Best I can do .

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All and FionaBam,

Here he is.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[FionaBam]

19 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All and FionaBam,

Here he is.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Lovely photos. Glad he survived being temporarily laid up.

We used to lay up our trimaran at Faversham Creek. Never had a hat like that though.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Lovely photos. Glad he survived being temporarily laid up.

We used to lay up our trimaran at Faversham Creek. Never had a hat like that though.

😂👍

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

At the risk of this being off-topic, Grandfather (1880-1940) was recommended twice for an MC.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[FionaBam]

55 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All,

At the risk of this being off-topic, Grandfather (1880-1940) was recommended twice for an MC.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Thank you . Very interesting reading about his actions . Have I correctly noticed from life experiences that Australians have a strong commendable practical streak in their make-up ? May I say your grandfather made use of that combined with other skills on the fields of warfare . He must have inspired much confidence in the men he commanded and a feeling of security so otherwise totally denied them in those places they had to go to.

 

Lithgow- steel works there too. Sandford briefly Squadron Commander RNAS 2 till he offended Wing Commander Lambe in February 1918 and was sent packing to the Experimental HQ on Isle of Grain (Medway) came from Lithgow. Sandford after doing well at Grain as his expertise was engineering and knowing all plane types inside out returned to the big country and driving home for Xmas in 1928 ( pretty sure of the year) he was killed in a car crash.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Fiona,

Thanks for that.

Yes, you may well be right about that streak in the Australian make-up: certainly as applied to the Australian Imperial Force (AIF).

I was sorry to learn of Sandford's post-Great War demise. What was the contretemps with Wg Cdr Lambe, one wonders?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Fiona,

Thanks for that.

Yes, you may well be right about that streak in the Australian make-up: certainly as applied to the Australian Imperial Force (AIF).

I was sorry to learn of Sandford's post-Great War demise. What was the contretemps with Wg Cdr Lambe, one wonders?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Dear Kim

Thanks. Interesting to note that regards the AIF.

Yes what a shame. Sandford raised his concerns in a Memo to Lambe about the lack of training for the pilots arriving at the Squadron in that they were not prepared/equipped with the skills to be scouts . Sandford was concerned for the safety of his pilots and he  added he felt unable to fulfil the role of carrying out the operations demanded of the Squadron. 

Lambe replied that all copies of the Memo were to be destroyed. Sandford despite apologising that no offence was intended to the W.C. etc was promptly transferred back to Britain.

I differ here with the highly knowledgeable RNAS /Dover Patrol expert Mike Westrop ( who hopefully will  be available to add his take on the matter  )as I think a boss needs to allow minors to express their views and respond with the due respect explaining their own reasoning - nay listen carefully to the words of their juniors  but .. in war time can you balance that with rapid decision making /priorities etc? I dont know. And anyway have never been a proper manager. But it is a crucial matter in wartime. Lambe later used his management weight and position to try to retain the RNAS skills within the RAF organisation - another debate beyond my knowledge. I like punching above my weight till I realise how foolish I am being !

@MikeW

My thanks to @Airshipped who gave me this most fascinating information last year 

I ll dig out the actual Memos later as they are a real insight into the workings of an RNAS Squadron and ..I guess these clashes still happen nowadays .

P.S. found them . Thank you again to Airshipped.

Enjoy them!

Best wishes 

Fiona

 

P.P.S recently read in another Memo sent by Lambe to his managers at that time that he had "low output " from RNAS 2 Squadron - so he did recognise what Sandford was saying to him

Must locate that photo later too..sorry..tenterhooks leaving people on....

Edited 9 April , 2023 by FionaBam
Add photos

[FionaBam]

8 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Fiona,

Thanks for that.

Yes, you may well be right about that streak in the Australian make-up: certainly as applied to the Australian Imperial Force (AIF).

I was sorry to learn of Sandford's post-Great War demise. What was the contretemps with Wg Cdr Lambe, one wonders?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Hi Kim

I need to advise you that Mike @MikeW has since informed me it was not this altercation that led to Sandford being transferred but that he was held responsible for the death of a pilot and Observer after the newly arrived and duly tested out in the Squadron pilot crashed on his first operation .

Regards that other Memo from Lambe : my notebook tells me it was in RNAS HQ Dunkirk & 5 Group RAF : Policy Organisation and Misc." folder at Kew so shall search for that tomorrow . Minus my drivellish analysis.. hopefully 

 

Cheers

Fiona 

[MikeW]

10 hours ago, FionaBam said:

Hi Kim

I need to advise you that Mike @MikeW has since informed me it was not this altercation that led to Sandford being transferred but that he was held responsible for the death of a pilot and Observer after the newly arrived and duly tested out in the Squadron pilot crashed on his first operation .

Regards that other Memo from Lambe : my notebook tells me it was in RNAS HQ Dunkirk & 5 Group RAF : Policy Organisation and Misc." folder at Kew so shall search for that tomorrow . Minus my drivellish analysis.. hopefully 

 

Cheers

Fiona 

No, You had it right the first time Fiona - it was the implied criticism of Lambe (at least in Lambe's eyes) that got Sandford sacked. Sandford was rightly miffed at the quality of some of the rookie pilots that he was being sent from the Cranwell - Manston DH4 school - 12 Squadron route. His first fatality while in charge was a new pilot that didn't seem to cope with the DH.4 particularly well. After something like 15 practice flights, Sandford had to use him on operations, and he crashed the aircraft in a burning wreck that also took out an experienced Observer. And the good observers were in shorter supply than the pilots!

So Sandford wrote his ill-judged memo to personnel (which had to pass across Lambe's desk) basically saying he needed skilled pilots not "washed-out" scout pilots. I think policy at the time was that Cranfield used to have a major say in which future direction a trainee pilot would go. When you look at a pilots ADM273 it often has the comment from Cranfield "Recommended for Fast Scouts", or 2 seaters or Seaplanes or whatever!

Wing Captain Charles Laverock "Larry"  Lambe (Air Vice Marshall KCB, CMG, DSO) was not a man to be messed with and I have several instances where he had no hesitation in getting shot of RNAS Squadron Commanders and Flight Commanders who upset him (or failed to meet the high expectations etc etc).

 

All of which is very fascinating but doesn't get us any closer to finding out where Freddy served in the RFC as an Observer. He was obviously a prime target for the RFC as he had served in the Royal Field Artillery, and he was a commissioned officer in the Wiltshire Regiment.

Would he have been seconded to some form of Observer training, or would he have gone directly to a Squadron? Why is most of his Wiltshire Regiment paperwork missing from his WO339 file? Too many "WHYs" for a period of about 9 months from Autumn 1915 to Summer 1916. Freddy had a remarkable WW1 military career and we need to close this gap in his record.

Mike

[FionaBam]

54 minutes ago, MikeW said:

No, You had it right the first time Fiona - it was the implied criticism of Lambe (at least in Lambe's eyes) that got Sandford sacked. Sandford was rightly miffed at the quality of some of the rookie pilots that he was being sent from the Cranwell - Manston DH4 school - 12 Squadron route. His first fatality while in charge was a new pilot that didn't seem to cope with the DH.4 particularly well. After something like 15 practice flights, Sandford had to use him on operations, and he crashed the aircraft in a burning wreck that also took out an experienced Observer. And the good observers were in shorter supply than the pilots!

So Sandford wrote his ill-judged memo to personnel (which had to pass across Lambe's desk) basically saying he needed skilled pilots not "washed-out" scout pilots. I think policy at the time was that Cranfield used to have a major say in which future direction a trainee pilot would go. When you look at a pilots ADM273 it often has the comment from Cranfield "Recommended for Fast Scouts", or 2 seaters or Seaplanes or whatever!

Wing Captain Charles Laverock "Larry"  Lambe (Air Vice Marshall KCB, CMG, DSO) was not a man to be messed with and I have several instances where he had no hesitation in getting shot of RNAS Squadron Commanders and Flight Commanders who upset him (or failed to meet the high expectations etc etc).

 

All of which is very fascinating but doesn't get us any closer to finding out where Freddy served in the RFC as an Observer. He was obviously a prime target for the RFC as he had served in the Royal Field Artillery, and he was a commissioned officer in the Wiltshire Regiment.

Would he have been seconded to some form of Observer training, or would he have gone directly to a Squadron? Why is most of his Wiltshire Regiment paperwork missing from his WO339 file? Too many "WHYs" for a period of about 9 months from Autumn 1915 to Summer 1916. Freddy had a remarkable WW1 military career and we need to close this gap in his record.

Mike

Many thanks Mike for your crystal clear clarification and information.  Never was a surname less applicable it seems  and look forward to understanding what Lambe achieved for the RAF.

Yes...on with the search.

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Mike and Fiona,

Larry Lambe (1875-1953) came from the Royal Navy and was a RNAS pioneer, translating to the RAF.

AVM Sir Charles Lambe had the KCB, CMG, DSO (as Mike has so ably informed us) and the Legion d'honneur (Fr.), Croix de Guerre (Fr.), Order of Leopold (Belg.), Order of the Crown (Belg.), and the Navy DSM (US). 

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

Edited 10 April , 2023 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[topgun1918]

Lambe was also an Officer of the Legion d'Honneur - Gazetted on 14 September 1917. 

Just a quick correction - The Order of Leopold was a Belgian honour;.

And to expand - he received both the Belgian Croix de Guerre (Gazetted 21 September 1918) and the French Croix de Guerre avec Palme (Gazetted 8 November 1918).

His elevation from CB to KCB took place in 1931.

Graeme

 

[FionaBam]

28 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All, and Mike and Fiona,

Larry Lambe (1875-1953) came from the Royal Navy and was a RNAS pioneer, translating to the RAF.

AVM Sir Charles Lambe had the KCB, CMG, DSO (as Mike has so ably informed us) and the Croix de Guerre (Fr.), Order of Leopold (Fr.), Order of the Crown (Belg.), and the Navy DSM (US). 

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

Thank you Kim. Highly decorated putting it mildly .

Looking very congenial and ....solid in this fine photo.

Fiona 

[FionaBam]

17 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

Lambe was also an Officer of the Legion d'Honneur - Gazetted on 14 September 1917. 

Just a quick correction - The Order of Leopold was a Belgian honour;.

And to expand - he received both the Belgian Croix de Guerre (Gazetted 21 September 1918) and the French Croix de Guerre avec Palme (Gazetted 8 November 1918).

His elevation from CB to KCB took place in 1931.

Graeme

 

Thank you Graeme. The Belgian military would have seen Lambe's influence in protecting that front line .

Thanks to the River Yser, the brilliantly executed inundations and the combined Belgian and British  army+navy , the line stopped at Nieuport.

Fiona