Secondment to which RFC Squadron/Update lost records at NAKew ?

[FionaBam]

08.04.2023

UPDATE

Just noted blue writing on Index page of WO339 file for Freddy 

"1 3 4 Destroyed in 1932 + Docs enclosed "

also " date of Registry" is 21.06.1916

This could explain missing documents regards secondment to RFC as Observer and other information strangely lacking too.

Will contact NA at Kew for their research teams' advice on this and Update further .Thank you.

 

How can I find out which RFC Squadron my grandfather Frederick Edward Arthur Bambridge was seconded to as an Observer in 1916 whilst serving in the 6th Wiltshire Regiment?

And would there be any records of his flights? 

From AIR 1/97/15/9/269 “Reports and Particulars of RNAS officers' services A-B”. I have a summary of Freddy's service which was created on 5/12/1917 the day after he joined RNAS 2 in Dunkirk.

 It states:

"Active Service: Observer RFC January/March 1916.” 

Below under “Outstanding Features “  it states “ 2 years in Wiltshire Infantry” and “Observer in R.F.C. January/March 1916” 

Freddy’s Army service dates are: 5/10/1914 Attestation – 12/11/1916- Army rescinded his Commission due to Freddy being deemed medically unfit for service . He returned to Flanders the following year in the RNAS.

Puzzling why I cannot locate a Gazette record of this secondment, though have seen plenty of others Gazetted as Seconded to RFC. Also theres no mention of a Secondment in Freddy's NAK : WO339 file nor on his Medal Card...unless I have missed it abbreviated there.

Thank you for your help !

 

Edited 8 April , 2023 by FionaBam
To update something important

[Gunner 87]

Hi Fiona,

This maybe of interest to you should you not have it already. The Casualty Card reported date 5th April 1918. It is held at the RAF Museum Story Vault. 

[FionaBam]

2 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Hi Fiona,

This maybe of interest to you should you not have it already. The Casualty Card reported date 5th April 1918. It is held at the RAF Museum Story Vault. 

Hi Gunner

 

Thank you I do have that actually and was looking at it again this evening wondering if I had missed an abbreviation that someone on the forum could decode for me !

Cheers

Fiona 

[Tawhiri]

Unfortunately he's proving to be a little elusive when it comes to the normal places to look like in the casualty files.

His AIR 76 officer's personnel record doesn't shed any light on his early service with the RFC in 1916, and nor do the two pages detailing his service with the RNAS from the ADM 273 series. One of these notes the information that you already have, that he served with the RFC from January to April 1916. Interestingly, it also notes that prior to joining the Wiltshire Regiment in April 1915 he had served with the Royal Field Artillery from October 1914 to April 1915, which might perhaps explain why the RFC were interested in at least trying him out as an observer.

AIR 76 record

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8189001

ADM 273 records

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9751319

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9754517

All of the above documents are available online from the National Archives, at no charge, if you have not already obtained copies of them.

He also has an Army officer's personnel record, which might be your best chance of determining which RFC squadron he was attached to. This is also available at the National Archives, but has not been digitized so an in-person visit would be required to view the file.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1094910

Looking at the Gazette, he was commissioned on 10 April 1915, so his prior service with the Royal Field Artillery from October 1914 until this date was as an enlisted man.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29122/page/3455

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29127/page/3587

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29133/page/3728

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29573/page/4559

And finally, relinquishing his commission on 13 October 1916.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29781/supplement/9846

I wonder if he was temporarily attached to the RFC to look at his suitability as an observer, and was then returned to his regiment when for whatever reason it became clear he wasn't going to work out and this is why you can't find a record of his secondment in the Gazette. I suspect it's his Army officer's personnel record that you need to look at, because even if it was a temporary attachment it should be recorded in there.

Edited 7 April , 2023 by Tawhiri

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

Unfortunately he's proving to be a little elusive when it comes to the normal places to look like in the casualty files.

His AIR 76 officer's personnel record doesn't shed any light on his early service with the RFC in 1916, and nor do the two pages detailing his service with the RNAS from the ADM 273 series. One of these notes the information that you already have, that he served with the RFC from January to April 1916. Interestingly, it also notes that prior to joining the Wiltshire Regiment in April 1915 he had served with the Royal Field Artillery from October 1914 to April 1915, which might perhaps explain why the RFC were interested in at least trying him out as an observer.

AIR 76 record

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8189001

ADM 273 records

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9751319

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9754517

All of the above documents are available online from the National Archives, at no charge, if you have not already obtained copies of them.

He also has an Army officer's personnel record, which might be your best chance of determining which RFC squadron he was attached to. This is also available at the National Archives, but has not been digitized so an in-person visit would be required to view the file.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1094910

Looking at the Gazette, he was commissioned on 10 April 1915, so his prior service with the Royal Field Artillery from October 1914 until this date was as an enlisted man.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29122/page/3455

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29127/page/3587

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29133/page/3728

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29573/page/4559

And finally, relinquishing his commission on 13 October 1916.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29781/supplement/9846

I wonder if he was temporarily attached to the RFC to look at his suitability as an observer, and was then returned to his regiment when for whatever reason it became clear he wasn't going to work out and this is why you can't find a record of his secondment in the Gazette. I suspect it's his Army officer's personnel record that you need to look at, because even if it was a temporary attachment it should be recorded in there.

Thank you so much for all your work and your thoughts! Fabulous! 

I can see the connection you suggest between his service in RFA  and the RFC having an interest in him ( or vice- versa). He was a bombardier on a Howitzer in the RFA so would have possibly  seen the work of RFC Observers as spotters at first hand and expressed his interest .

I had not spotted Freddy's RFC service  listed on his ( final) ADM 273 record! Gees! Staring at me!

I also had wondered why such a short secondment to the RFC ( Jan 1916 till April 1916 going from final ADM 273 record) and so - 

I have been lucky enough to view Freddys  Army Personnel file ( WO 339 series at Kew NA) .Lots of information and a treasure trove for me. He was sent home from France  and hospitalised in England inJune 1916 , and I wondered if this illness started during his RFC service . It does not state the nature of the illness but I shall try contacting the hospital as it is still there and they may have an archive department ( had a great response when I contacted the Warneford hospital in Oxford recently regards a different pilot )

Otherwise I can see nothing in Freddy's Army personnel file about this trial / secondment period he had with the RFC. Even though as you suggest it may not have worked out for him,  would his movement there in January 1916 not have been recorded as standard procedure in the Gazette ?

Many thanks

Fiona 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Fiona,

Illness? The Casualty Card says GSW (Gun Shot Wound left Leg), in 1918.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[MikeW]

Hello Kim,

please forget the Casualty Card, that is referring to being shot down by AA Fire on the 22nd March 1918 when serving as a pilot with No.2 Squadron RNAS.

 

This is what the subject of this thread is about - specifically "RFC Jan 1916 - April 1916"   and "Invalided out Oct 1916" (that's Invalided out of the Wiltshire Regiment) and prior to being commissioned in the Wilts Regiment he was a Bombardier in the Royal Field Artillery so he has a very long convoluted was service!

[FionaBam]

3 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Fiona,

Illness? The Casualty Card says GSW (Gun Shot Wound left Leg), in 1918.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Hello Kim

Thank you for decoding. Had read elsewhere of gun shot wound and it puzzles me as all other records state he had fractures to both legs .

This injury  is from Freddys later service in RNAS 2 Squadron from Dec 1917 till his plane was shot down in Belgium.

I keep confusing myself as Freddy was discharged twice due to not being medically  fit for service . 

Cheers

Fiona 

 

 

[hmsk212]

Hi

With regards to the incident on 22nd March 1918 in which he was wounded. He was the pilot of DH4 ( A7665) and was shot down by Flack near Sassenbrug, crashing near to Pervyse .  He suffered from Gun Shot Wounds to the legs caused by the Flack the wounds also included compound fractures  His Gun Layer, J/26402 Harry George Lovelock DSM was killed in the incident.  Freddys plane was later recovered, badly damaged.

Steve

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Fiona and Mike,

Ah! Thanks for that.

That makes his determined War Service even more interesting.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Steve,

Thanks for the interesting details: the Gunner was unlucky in the extreme.

By the way, it is Flak (Flieger Abwehr Kanone).

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

[FionaBam]

14 minutes ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi

With regards to the incident on 22nd March 1918 in which he was wounded. He was the pilot of DH4 ( A7665) and was shot down by Flack near Sassenbrug, crashing near to Pervyse .  He suffered from Gun Shot Wounds to the legs caused by the Flack the wounds also included compound fractures  His Gun Layer, J/26402 Harry George Lovelock DSM was killed in the incident.  Freddys plane was later recovered, badly damaged.

Steve

Thank you very much Steve for your work on this. And it's great for me to finally  understand the gun shot wounds from the flack.

Actually I have these records including the formal documents from RNAS 2 Squadron about the incident and crash. Wonder if you saw details of the plane's descent and landing.

Extraordinary that Freddy survived this and very sad the ending of Harry Lovelock 's life.

The plane was later written off .

 

Thanks again!

Cheers Fiona 

[MikeW]

Thanks Steve,

we have the 22nd March 1918 incident extremely well documented, its the murky bit in early 1916 where we are struggling.

 

By the way, I'm not sure the casualty card Gunshot wound/Flak is totally correct as it differs from the RNAS 1 Wing Surgeon General's report  (Compound fracture of both bones of left lower leg, fracture of both bones of right lower leg and fracture right thigh), and the probably rather rushed  hospital report from Ocean Hospital, La Panne (fractured right femur).

Mike

[FionaBam]

22 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Fiona and Mike,

Ah! Thanks for that.

That makes his determined War Service even more interesting.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Indeed it does Kim. I think about it a lot .

Thank you 

Fiona 

[FionaBam]

19 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Steve,

Thanks for the interesting details: the Gunner was unlucky in the extreme.

By the way, it is Flak (Flieger Abwehr Kanone).

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

Yes he was very unlucky. A very talented young gunner too who had joined the navy in 1912 and been decorated prior to this accident 

Ah Flak - thank you!  Would love to hear how you pronounce that in German!Can you post recordings here ?!

Fiona 

[FionaBam]

9 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Thanks Steve,

we have the 22nd March 1918 incident extremely well documented, its the murky bit in early 1916 where we are struggling.

 

By the way, I'm not sure the casualty card Gunshot wound/Flak is totally correct as it differs from the RNAS 1 Wing Surgeon General's report  (Compound fracture of both bones of left lower leg, fracture of both bones of right lower leg and fracture right thigh), and the probably rather rushed  hospital report from Ocean Hospital, La Panne (fractured right femur).

Mike

Hiya collaborator!

I wonder if the gunshot wound ( very likely in the circumstances) was later not reported on as medically it was not so serious as those numerous fractures also the wound itself had later healed having been  not too deep or major .

[FROGSMILE]

Just a couple of points, one very minor, but perhaps worth mentioning if only for my own curiosity.

I’ve always been led to believe that FLAK refers to Flug Abwehr Kanone.  My German grammar is nothing like Kim’s so I don’t know the finer aspects differentiating Flieger from Flug though.

Gun Shot Wound (GSW) was used as formal categorisation for all penetrating injuries from high velocity projectiles, whether conventional bullets, or the statistically more common fragments from bursting shells of various calibres.  Anti-aircraft fire took a number of forms and included proximity exploding shells as well as direct machine gun fire.  The detonation of the former and subsequent fragmentation might well have led to the leg fractures described.

Edited 8 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Just a couple of points one minor but perhaps worth mentioning.

I’ve always been led to believe that FLAK refers to Flug Abwehr Kanone.  My German grammar is nothing like Kim’s so I don’t know the finer aspects differentiating Flieger from Flug though.

Gun Shot Wound (GSW) was used for all penetrating injuries from high velocity projectiles whether conventional bullets or the statistically more common fragments from bursting shells of various calibres.  Anti-aircraft fire took a number of forms and included proximity exploding shells as well as direct machine gun fire.  The detonation of the former and subsequent fragmentation might well have led to the leg fractures described.

Thank you.  Extremely helpful. Would have caused many traumas to pilots and gunlayer.

In this case we know the AA shell tore off the tail of Freddy 's plane and that the events of the crash are such that it is highly likely that Freddy's legs were broken by what happened when the plane landed on the ground.

Cheers 

Fiona 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, FionaBam said:

Thank you.  Extremely helpful. Would have caused many traumas to pilots and gunlayer.

In this case we know the AA shell tore off the tail of Freddy 's plane and that the events of the crash are such that it is highly likely that Freddy's legs were broken by what happened when the plane landed on the ground.

Cheers 

Fiona 

Your latter point does indeed seem likely, but unless the mention of GSW was a mistake and thus complete red herring then he must also have had some penetrating wounds from projectiles too. 

Edited 8 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

36 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Your latter point does indeed seem likely, but unless the mention of GSW was a mistake and thus complete red herring then he must also have had some penetrating wounds from projectiles too. 

Thank you.  Am decided on this now. Great .

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and frogsmile,

FLAK could well have stood for Flug Abwehr Kanone.

I have long-since learnt not to be dogmatic...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All, and frogsmile,

FLAK could well have stood for Flug Abwehr Kanone.

I have long-since learnt not to be dogmatic...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

I was genuinely wondering (curious) what the difference was grammatically?

Edited 8 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear frogsmile,

Flieger means  (approximately) 'flyer', and 'Flug' means (approximately) 'flight'.

The more I think about it - before chasing after reference books - you may well be right with Flug Abwehr Kanone, and good for you to question the matter.

I am an Australian, but have lived and worked in sw Germany for decades (it seemed a good idea at the time!), and am now a retired Layouter (ex-Ad Agency).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

[FionaBam]

18 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear frogsmile,

Flieger means  (approximately) 'flyer', and 'Flug' means (approximately) 'flight'.

The more I think about it - before chasing after reference books - you may well be right with Flug Abwehr Kanone, and good for you to question the matter.

I am an Australian, but have lived and worked in sw Germany for decades (it seemed a good idea at the time!), and am now a retired Layouter (ex-Ad Agency).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

So you know how to play on words in German for the sake of a good line in an advert !

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear frogsmile,

Flieger means  (approximately) 'flyer', and 'Flug' means (approximately) 'flight'.

The more I think about it - before chasing after reference books - you may well be right with Flug Abwehr Kanone, and good for you to question the matter.

I am an Australian, but have lived and worked in sw Germany for decades (it seemed a good idea at the time!), and am now a retired Layouter (ex-Ad Agency).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Thanks Kim, I knew you had lived a long time in Germany with your family (we have communicated quite a few times before) and so I guessed you might know the subtleties.