sweetheart "CANADA"

[battle of loos]

Good evening
I would like to know more about this type of sweetheart found on the field marked "CANADA".
Is it a classic pin?

Thank you in advance for your opinions.
Kind regards

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, battle of loos said:

Good evening
I would like to know more about this type of sweetheart found on the field marked "CANADA".
Is it a classic pin?

Thank you in advance for your opinions.
Kind regards

That’s very interesting Michel, it seems to have a central shield design.  I wonder if it might relate to one of the Canadian provinces, such as, e.g. Manitoba.  Perhaps forum pal @RNCVR might recognise it.

[RNCVR]

@battle of loos  @FROGSMILE   I have no idea what this is!   Other than CANADA I am unable to mak out any of the detail due to the surface corrosion. 

I doubt its a Sweetheart pin, it appears to be too large to me.  Also it appears to made of a base metal ie: not silver/gold. Judging by the green verdigris on the reverse it appears to be coppermor perhaps a copper alloy.  What are the dimensions? 

I have attached a photo of a 2WW RCN Sweetheart pin, its approx 1 1/4"" width & 1 1/2" height & made of silver.  The 1WW Army examples would be similar dimensions, Sweetheart pins are usually have enamel in them as well.  They were meant to be worn by the soldier/sailor's girlfriend/wife on her blouse or dress, so they were not very large.

Edited 28 March , 2023 by RNCVR
.

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with your assessment Bryan and I don’t think it is a sweetheart brooch either.  It is too fussy and elaborate for that**, although it does have the remnants of what might be a pin fixture on the back.  Like you I’m not sure what it is either.  My first thought is that it isn’t regimental insignia, but one never quite knows with CEF units, as they often did their own things, with a flamboyance not usually seen in “The Old Country’s” insignia.  If a pencil rubbing could be done over the surface of the badge we might be able to see its detail.  There is definitely a shield at its centre and that’s what suggests to me a Province connection.

**sweetheart brooches were usually neat and elegant, such as that whose image you posted.

Edited 28 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

It appears to be a Canadian 7 Provinces brooch

Vintage Sterling Enamel Canadian Provinces Crest Brooch (jansjewells.com)

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

It appears to be a Canadian 7 Provinces brooch

Vintage Sterling Enamel Canadian Provinces Crest Brooch (jansjewells.com)

Brilliant spot, well done, that seems to be it.  Just need to find a slightly more elaborate single metal example now.

[FROGSMILE]

Apparently they were a popular form of especially Canadian souvenir costume jewellery, and often comprised intricately enamelled brooch work.  This “Son of Canada” example is the closest that I can find.

There are lots of other examples, including the small one below that I’m sure RNCVR will like.

 

Edited 28 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

@FROGSMILEYes I have it 2x. its a very nice sweetheart...I have a fairly large collection of them....

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, RNCVR said:

@FROGSMILEYes I have it 2x. its a very nice sweetheart...I have a fairly large collection of them....

Yes I particularly like the lower one.  I don’t think that the example posted by Michel was necessarily enamelled do you, or perhaps the enamel deteriorated and fell off?  I’d still like to see a pencil rubbing of the brooch to determine its full design.

[RNCVR]

@FROGSMILE  I doubt it was enamelled, as its base metal, or appears to be, I dont know how base metal (ie: not silver) takes enamelling? 

The shield appears to be post Confederation(1867) but possibly pre 1WW, its really hard to make out details. A good cleaning with a toothbrush & some hard soap would really help.

We really need he dimensions of the piece.

The lower RCNVR sweetheart I posted is in excellent shape, likely not worn much post war. I dont have aphoto of the reverse but I expect its pin back.

Attached my set of 3 RNCVR (1WW) examples...... they are quite rare....

[battle of loos]

Good evening

On my brooch there are remnants of enamel (red - white) and gilding.
It is made of copper. 
size:
Width: 51.78 mm
Height: 34.87 mm

it strongly resembles the 1st presented by Frogsmill

On its own it says "SON OF CANADA".
on mine, only "CANADA".

Thank you all for your explanations and research.

michel

[battle of loos]

here is one from the 73rd Canadian Highlabnders found on the ground (Loos).
certainly carried by a survivor of this battalion ratched to a battalion of the 1st Canadian Division.

michel

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

Good evening

On my brooch there are remnants of enamel (red - white) and gilding.
It is made of copper. 
size:
Width: 51.78 mm
Height: 34.87 mm

it strongly resembles the 1st presented by Frogsmill

On its own it says "SON OF CANADA".
on mine, only "CANADA".

Thank you all for your explanations and research.

michel

Thank you Michel, it seems to have been a slightly less expensive type of brooch, but clearly a Canadian soldier’s souvenir of home.  We can only imagine what happened to its owner.

4 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

here is one from the 73rd Canadian Highlabnders found on the ground (Loos).
certainly carried by a survivor of this battalion ratched to a battalion of the 1st Canadian Division.

michel

This was a soldier’s bonnet badge Michel, a part of his regimental insignia, and not a souvenir item.

Edited 28 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Michel, it seems to have been a slightly less expensive type of brooch, but clearly a Canadian soldier’s souvenir of home.  We can only imagine what happened to its owner.

This was a soldier’s bonnet badge Michel, a part of his regimental insignia, and not a souvenir item.

For me, it's not a badge but a brooch.
What for:
- its size:
Height: 43.77 mm
Width: 35.18 mm
- remains of red enamel to the right of St Andrew's
- fixing system (pin which is unfortunately absent here)

michel

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

For me, it's not a badge but a brooch.
What for:
- its size:
Height: 43.77 mm
Width: 35.18 mm
- remains of red enamel to the right of St Andrew's
- fixing system (pin which is unfortunately absent here)

michel

I understand your point, but can you show it alongside a measuring tape please?

It is made from Sterling silver, which was quite traditional for senior (i.e. ‘staff’) sergeants and regimental officers, and you should not read too much into the pin fastening for such badges for senior personnel, as they were not uncommon for ease of transferring a badge between a khaki bonnet and a glengarry.  Size could also sometimes vary, and Canadian units did not always follow the exact policy of Scottish regiments.

Edited 28 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

I indicated the dimensions in my previous message

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

I indicated the dimensions in my previous message

I don’t doubt you Michel, I would just find it easier to visualise next to a measure in inches.  It’s just my idiosyncrasy that’s all.  Don’t bother if it’s awkward/inconvenient to do.

An important thing to consider is that there would be no purpose for such a badge (brooched or otherwise) unless it was used as insignia for some item of uniform.  If it’s size makes it unsuitable for headdress it could be for something else.  Small “sweetheart brooches” were for womenfolk.

Edited 28 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

Good evening
Here are some more pins from the field

michel

[battle of loos]

here is the pin of the 73rd Bat in comparison with other Canadian badges of the field :

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, battle of loos said:

here is the pin of the 73rd Bat in comparison with other Canadian badges of the field :

Thank you Michel, that is really helpful.  Comparing it with the artillery gun and Maple leaf cap badges it’s around the same size that is standard for a peaked SD forage cap or collar badge.  It would be interesting to research the Black Watch of Canada and see what item of uniform it might have been used for. Prewar in Scottish Highlander regiments it was common for the battalion Adjutant to be the only officer wearing a smaller version of the regimental badge on a peaked forage cap, when the rest of the battalion’s officers were wearing Glengarries.  It might be something as arcane as that, but would require targeted research to throw any light on it.

Edited 29 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

good morning,

Could the collar be enameled.
On mine, there is a remnant of red enamel.
That's what reminds me of a brooch.
But it would be interesting to see the privately purchased manufacturing variants.
Thanks again for your help.

michel

[CorporalPunishment]

18 hours ago, battle of loos said:

here is one from the 73rd Canadian Highlabnders found on the ground (Loos).
certainly carried by a survivor of this battalion ratched to a battalion of the 1st Canadian Division.

michel

Michel, the maker's mark on the reverse, TLM, is that of Thomas L. Mott of Birmingham who made many items of jewellery including sweetheart brooches and that is what you have there.      Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, battle of loos said:

good morning,

Could the collar be enameled.
On mine, there is a remnant of red enamel.
That's what reminds me of a brooch.
But it would be interesting to see the privately purchased manufacturing variants.
Thanks again for your help.

michel

No a collar badge would not be enamelled usually during that WW1 period Michel.  If it is definitely the remnants of enamel then it cannot be uniform insignia, unless it’s a Canadian unit feature that I’m unaware of.

Birmingham, Manchester, London and Edinburgh were the primary cities where insignia was made (in so-called jewellery quarters) and most of the companies that specialised in intricate worked metal designs developed all kinds of jewellery, including brooches and pendants, and in wartime many of them had War Office contracts to make military insignia. See: https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/birmingham-jewellery-quarter/birmingham-jewellery-quarter/

Edited 29 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

Thanks again for your answers and the period advertisements.
very interesting.

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

Thanks again for your answers and the period advertisements.
very interesting.

I’m glad to help a little.  I think now that you may be right that your badge must be a sweetheart brooch, not so much because of the pin back, but because of the remnants of enamel.  It seems odd that the brooch should be found in the mud, because it was most probably purchased in Britain and one would expect it to be given by the soldier who owned it to a female in his life.  A small mystery of war.

Edited 29 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE