Help needed ID'ing an English Uniform

[Bob Davies]

3 hours ago, timothedubois said:

Unfortunately the only names I know are for my gran and great-gran; if their connection to this officer was either friendship or an affair, those aren't likely to help either.  There is this one other mysterious photo though -- showing another (or the same?) man in uniform, probably around 1918 and almost certainly in North Wales.  Less to go on here, but does the overcoat or hat mean anything to any of you?

This photograph I am confident was taken in Llandudno, in the winter months. Coat, hats and lack of leaves on the trees. The rocky out crop on the right is part of the Great Orme. There is a small castle like building right of picture, to the left of the small tree. The building is still there to this day. Picture courtesy of Google maps;

About the place the photo was taken, again courtesy Google maps.

A quick edit here. Now I remember that Kinmell  was or is a place near here where the Canadian troops were billeted before they were shipped back to Canada. They were hanging around for weeks at a time and I believe riots broke out as they were so fed up about being kept there for so long. Link to Wikipedia page;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinmel_Park_mutiny

 

Edited 26 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[6RRF]

And quite coincidentally on another part of this very forum...

Sapper William Tarasevich - Kinmel Park Riots - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, timothedubois said:

Thanks, @FROGSMILE.  Yes, whoever the officer in the second photo I shared is, I am more confident about the timing of that photo since it includes my gran (the little girl), who was born in 1914.  As mentioned to PRC, family legend has that my gran's (official) father returned to North Wales to visit her and my great-grandmother after spending WWI with his mistress in New Zealand, and that when he visited he wore a uniform. The uniform wouldn't likely have been a NZ one, since his name -- Arthur Flohr --  made him an object of suspicion in NZ early in WWI and led to his discharge from the NZ Army.  At the same time, the only British Army service records I've ever found for Arthur Flohr were from pre-1909, when he was a lieutenant in Lancashire.  So I can't imagine Flohr was an officer in the ASC when he visited North Wales in or around 1918, but if anyone can confirm, that would help me rule him out, at least. (Attached is the only confirmed photo of I have of Arthur Flohr as an adult, probably taken around 1905 and definitely not the officer in the first photo I shared but potentially the one in the second photo I shared.)

I’m pretty sure that neither of your officers are this fellow Flohr pictured above.  His ear is a different shape and he is full lipped with pugnacious chin.  Both officers are much more spare in their features.

[CorporalPunishment]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

I hope I've understood the points made so far - otherwise I've just wasted an hour of my life

So is the consensus of @CorporalPunishment and @FROGSMILE that the various elements of the uniform on display would when taken together suggest the original picture was taken in 1911 or later?

And the general feel is that it was taken in the UK?

It's not been mentioned but I would also suggest the presence of the children and the woman, (possibly the children and wife of the officer) would tend to point to a pre 5th August 1914 date. If we assume for a moment that they are his two boys then are looking at a married man, and judging from the age of the oldest child, (5-7?) then even if the picture was taken on that final August Bank Holiday you'd be looking for a man married no later that 1909.

Working from the 1911 angle I've been looking at Harts Annual Army List from 1911 to 1914 inclusive. During that time there were 36 unique individuals who were Lieutenant-Colonels in the Army Service Corps. But checking their active service entries 29 I believe can be ruled out as they received either the Queens South Africa medal, (which this man doesn't appear to be wearing), and \ or they would have had an entitlement to wear two or more service \ campaign \ gallantry medals.

The ones shown in red I believe can be ruled out. xx means I couldn't find the relevant entry in Harts.

Of the 7 left:-

The drawing of Brigadier-General Sir Charles Wallis King, Kt., K.C.V.O., C.B., C.M.G., dated 1919, shows him with a dimpled chin. https://www.rct.uk/collection/916984/brigadier-general-sir-charles-wallis-king-kt-k-c-v-o-c-b-c-m-g-1861-1943

Edward Thornton Buttanshaw, aged 46, born Bengal, and a Brevet Colonel in the Army Service Corps, was recorded as the married head of the household at 1 King Edward Road, Rochester on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, taken 2nd April 1911. He and wife Margaret Evelyn have been married 20 years. The marriage has produced 2 children, both still alive but neither living with them. A family tree on the familysearch website lists their only children as Evelyn May Gwenllian Buttanshaw, (1891-1954) and Edward Henry Underwood Buttanshaw, (1892-1915). No War Services entry in Harts for Edward senior so may not have any medal entitlement.

Arthur Edwin Cuming retired 20th February 1912 which severely restricts the period in which the photograph could have been taken. No War Services entry in Harts so may not have any medal entitlement.

Harry Lionel Humphreys promoted Colonel 11th July 1911 which again severely restricts the period in which the photograph could have been taken. No War Services entry in Harts so may not have any medal entitlement.

Astley Terry, aged 45, born Weybridge, Surrey and a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Service Corps was records as the married head of the household at 50 Holland Street, West London on the 1911 Census. He doesn't state how long he and wife Mildred have been married, but the union has produced three children, all then still alive. The two still at home are daughters Winifred, (12, born Farnbrough, Hampshire) and Marjory, (7, born Colombo, Ceylon). The marriage of a Astley Herbert Terry to a Mildred Oliphant Boileau was recorded in the St Georges Hanover Square District of London in Q1 1896. An online family tree has a son Astley Thomas Terry born in 1897 at St. Peters Port, Guernsey, Channel Islands and a Boarder at Cheltenham by the time of the 1911 Census. http://www.holmesacourt.org/hac/4/9251.htm
No War Services entry in Harts for Astley senior so may not have any medal entitlement.

Frederick Maurice Wilson is shown stationed in England in both the 1911 & 1912 editions of Harts, but doesn't appear to be recorded on the 1911 Census. There is a likely match on the 1901 Census of England & Wales. A 32 year old Frederick M. Wilson, a married Captain in the Army Service Corps, born Barningham, Norfolk, was recorded along with wife Lorna S. Wilson, (aged 27 and born Shipton, Wiltshire) living with his parents at Barking, Suffolk, where his father was the Clergyman. The marriage of a Frederick Maurice Wilson to a Lorna Sophia Glynn Baker was recorded in the Shepton Mallet District of Somerset in Q2 1897. The Somerset Marriage records lists him as an Officer in H.M. Army.  A composite family tree on the familysearch website lists just one child - a Maurice James Fraser Wilson who would go on to be ordained.  Frederick had been awarded just the Ashanti Star, although I'm not sure that is the ribbon on display in our original mystery photograph.

Image courtesy Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashanti_Star

Ernest Carden Freeth Gillespie has a picture in a Spinks catalogue on the issu website but access seems incredibly difficult.  The best I can do is this snapshot from Google images, which appears to show him with a dimpled chin and as a Brigadier General.

Image courtesy https://www.google.com/search?q=Ernest+Carden+Freeth+Gillespie&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjEvuOKu_n9AhX5mycCHeGcCXcQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=Ernest+Carden+Freeth+Gillespie&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1CECliECmDjDWgAcAB4AIABRYgBgwGSAQEymAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=dSggZISwFvm3nsEP4bmmuAc&bih=661&biw=1408&client=firefox-b-d#imgrc=LEHqOUBOWlXdYM

Frederick Maurice Wilson for me would be the one to prove or eliminate. Attached for the latter part of the period to the Training Establishment at Aldershot, I wonder if that armband our mystery officer is wearing could be that of an umpire in some kind of training exercise.

That's as far as I've got for now - time to take a break and have a think!

Cheers,
Peter

Your man Gillespie certainly looks like an older version of the gent in the opening post but he doesn't fit the bill. Gillespie wears the ribbons of the CB (awarded 1915), the CMG (awarded 1917) and either the 1914 Star or the 1914-1915 Star, no pre-Great War ribbons at all.       Pete.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

22 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

This photograph I am confident was taken in Llandudno, in the winter months. Coat, hats and lack of leaves on the trees. The rocky out crop on the right is part of the Great Orme. There is a small castle like building right of picture, to the left of the small tree. The building is still there to this day. Picture courtesy of Google maps;

About the place the photo was taken, again courtesy Google maps.

 

Correct Bob.

The 'Castle-like' building in the distance is now a toll house for the private toll road tht goes around the Great Orme.

The gardens seem to be Happy Valley gardens, a well known spot on the tourist trail of Llandudno.

Edited 27 March , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Bob Davies]

37 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Correct Bob.

The 'Castle-like' building in the distance is now a toll house for the private toll road tht goes around the Great Orme.

The gardens seem to be Happey Valley gardens, a well known spot on the tourist trail of Llandudno.

Thank you for confirming that and the small details, which inform us all some more Dai Bach y Sowldiwr.  I have driven past there a thousand times but never stopped. 'Llandudno you should know'   I only stop when I get to the Llyn. On my search I thought at first it mIght have been taken at Trefor across to the quarry but no 'Castle' there, only farms. Then I knew where it was.

[PRC]

14 hours ago, timothedubois said:

The uniform wouldn't likely have been a NZ one, since his name -- Arthur Flohr --  made him an object of suspicion in NZ early in WWI and led to his discharge from the NZ Army. 

So is this the Arthur August Ellis Flohr, born Manchester, whose service records are available on the New Zealand Archive site. (In a statement made before his solicitor he states he was born 12^th March 1880 at Heaton Norris, County of Lancaster, England with a birth name of Ellis and his mother subsequently married Mr. John Henry Flohr, who adopted Arthur. The couple subsequently had two sons and two daughters, "both sons being commissioned in the BEF and both daughters married to Officers in the BEF".
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE19085359

Gave his next of kin as his father John Flohr, 28 Oxford Street, Manchester, although he also gives details of a marriage to Mary Olive Greenaway, Spinster, at Manchester, on the 22^nd August 1913. (One of the memos in the file does ask subsequently if this has ever been verified). There were no children of the marriage listed. He gave prior service as a Lieutenant in the Royal Artillery, (later stated to be 1900 to the 31^st October 1908 in the 2^nd East Lancashire Brigade, Royal Field Artillery Territorial Force. Interestingly when his former CO in that unit was asked for a character reference he wrote back that Arthur was militarily ok but on a personal level an unreliable source of information.)

He moved to New Zealand in 1913. (Could be a coincidence but an Arthur Flohr, aged “41” and a Mary Greenaway, aged 28, sailed from Southampton in 1913 bound for Sydney, Australia, abaord the ‘Roon’).

He enlisted on the 17^th March 1915, aged 34 and by the 29^th June 1915 was commissioned on probation, a few weeks later taking on the role of Camp Adjutant at Tauherenikau (or Featherton, both are mentioned). However it appears his request to be fully commissioned into the New Zealand Expeditionary Force in November 1915 was denied and his passport held at the request of the British authorities.

He was moved initially to the Reserve because of the nationality of his parents. There then appears to have been a long drawn out saga, during which he was actually called up under the Military Service Act, but was sent home on the 25^th February 1918 on unpaid leave – in contravention of all the relevant legislation. He asked to be released to go to England and serve with the British Army as he has two brothers who were serving, but was refused.

Shortly afterwards he was told he could leave New Zealand, although his status and that of his parents had not been resolved. He was to travel with his wife, the daughter of Isaac M. Greenway, formerly of Temuka, Canterbury and then living at Warwick, Queensland. She apparently had a Certificate of service for her time as a Staff Nurse in the Queens Alexandra’s Imperial Nursing Service in the UK from the 16^th February 1909 to the 31^st August 1913, and was also a registered nurse in New Zealand and Brisbane. She became Matron of two Military Hospitals but the anonymous allegations in the newspapers against her husband in late 1915 had forced her to give up those posts. She too had been denied the chance to go to England to serve.

Later note from July 1918 – he had left New Zealand bound for America.

That’s just a summary and I may have missed \ muddled some of the details – there is a lot of correspondence on the file and a very large amount of it is full of repetition with the odd new snippet thrown in.

I’m not spotting anything for him in the Canadian WW1 service records as either Flohr or Ellis.
There is the possibility that he enlisted in the US Army, or volunteered in the US for the British Army.

By 1922 it looks like he is back in New Zealand and registered to vote in Riccarton, Canterbury. https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:ZR3T-B3N2

His foster siblings were:-

Violet Theresa Frida Flohr, birth registered Macclesfield District Q2 1883.

·       A Violet F.T. Flohr married a Frank Berisford in the Omskirk District of Lancashire in Q4 1924, so despite Arthurs’ sworn statement to his solicitor, she wasn’t married to a serving officer of the B.E.F. I don't know if this is the same Frank Berisford who married sister Maud in 1911 - see below.

Albert Hermann Christian Flohr, birth registered Macclesfield District Q3 1885.

·       According to an online family tree married in South Africa on the 19^th December 1914. (SA marriage registers don’t record occupation). It has a picture of him. Died early in 1955 aged 68 in Manchester. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Flohr-237

·       No obvious officers long papers or medal index card for him.

·       Son John Christian Maskew Flohr born in Madras, India on the 5^th July 1918 and died there on the 9^th August 1919. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Flohr-336

·       Birth notice in The Times of India doesn’t give fathers occupation.

·       January 1918 British Army list has no instances of this surname.

John William Louis Flohr, birth registered Macclesfield District Q3 1887, (baptismal roll as John William James Flohr).

·       No obvious officers long papers or medal index card for him

·       Possible marriage – a John W. Flohr married a Winifred Ketley in the Congleton District of Cheshire in Q4 1913.

·       Likely children of that marriage, registered with mothers’ maiden name Ketley.
Winifred Joan Flohr, Stockport District, Q2 1916 – although the actual GRO site says mothers’ maiden name Hetley.
And genealogy sites working from the quarterly index list a Patrica M Flohr, mothers’ maiden name Ketley which was registered in the Stockport District in Q2 1921. But the GRO site itself shows two entries for a Sonia Patricia Flohr in the same district and quarter, but one with mothers’ maiden name Ketley and the other Keltey.

·       On the 1921 Census of England & Wales there is a John William James Flohr, born c1887 who was recorded at Llandudno cum Eglwys Rhos, Conway, Caernarvonshire.

·       Picture sourced from the wikitree which I suspect was created by our very own timothedubois. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Flohr-237

So is it possible that John is the officer seen in the picture at Llandudno?

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Maud Mercia Julia Flohr, birth registered Macclesfield District Q4 1888.

·       A Maud M J Flohr married a Frank Berisford in the Macclesfield District in Q3 1911.
·       Possible MiC – a 2^nd Lieutenant Frank Berisford landed in France with the 10^th Battalion Durham Light Infantry on the 1^st August 1915. Postwar contact addresses Buttevant Barracks, Cork, then 11 Victoria Street, Liverpool and finally 33 Rawlinson Road, Southport.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 27 March , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[PRC]

8 hours ago, timothedubois said:

Arthur's sailing from Southampton was on September 29, 1913, according to my notes -- is that the date you saw?

Yes https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:6857-NPV6

and Mary https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:6857-6X77

8 hours ago, timothedubois said:

And, as I recall, I wasn't able to turn up a British service record for either Arthur or John Flohr circa 1918 that would explain the uniform in the second photo...

If there wasn't a claim for a pension or ongoing service then an officers long papers could end up weeded away to nothing. And officers had to claim their medals - so if both men chose not to then there would be a good chance there wouldn't be a Medal Index Card. They also may not have been entitled. We don't know how long it took Arthur to reach the UK, but he would then have probably had a wait followed by an 18 week officer training course before he was commissioned. And as the source of his problems in New Zealand stemmed from objections originating in the UK, presumably they hadn't gone away immediately upon arrival. So even if he applied for a commission in the British Army he may not have got beyond the officer cadet stage by the time of the armistice. To allow for that I tried looking at the February 1919 British Army List but there are no Flohr's in the index. And while there is a Second Lieutenant A.A. Ellis, his commission dates from the 28th November 1917 and was serving with the 1st Infantry Battalion of the Honourable Artillery Company. (Column 667e) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/115598387

Johns' surname may have had a similar career limiting affect in the UK - in which case he may have served under another name, just as Arthur at one stage tried to do.

Pure speculation, but part of the role of the Army Service Corps would be to man the warehouses and depots where clothing was stored, including the personal items of the deceased. Officers had an allowance to compensate them for purchasing their own equipment. So if one of the Flohr brothers did end up serving with the Corps they may have been in a position to "help" themselves to an officers style coat!

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, PRC said:

Yes https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:6857-NPV6

and Mary https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:6857-6X77

If there wasn't a claim for a pension or ongoing service then an officers long papers could end up weeded away to nothing. And officers had to claim their medals - so if both men chose not to then there would be a good chance there wouldn't be a Medal Index Card. They also may not have been entitled. We don't know how long it took Arthur to reach the UK, but he would then have probably had a wait followed by an 18 week officer training course before he was commissioned. And as the source of his problems in New Zealand stemmed from objections originating in the UK, presumably they hadn't gone away immediately upon arrival. So even if he applied for a commission in the British Army he may not have got beyond the officer cadet stage by the time of the armistice. To allow for that I tried looking at the February 1919 British Army List but there are no Flohr's in the index. And while there is a Second Lieutenant A.A. Ellis, his commission dates from the 28th November 1917 and was serving with the 1st Infantry Battalion of the Honourable Artillery Company. (Column 667e) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/115598387

Johns' surname may have had a similar career limiting affect in the UK - in which case he may have served under another name, just as Arthur at one stage tried to do.

Pure speculation, but part of the role of the Army Service Corps would be to man the warehouses and depots where clothing was stored, including the personal items of the deceased. Officers had an allowance to compensate them for purchasing their own equipment. So if one of the Flohr brothers did end up serving with the Corps they may have been in a position to "help" themselves to an officers style coat!

Cheers,
Peter

As always you make excellent points Peter and you’re correct that the supply and transport of stores fell in their (ASC) purview, but warehousing and accounting for the stores was firmly in the bailiwick of the Army Ordnance Corps.

NB.  The modern day logistics corps is largely the two combined.

Edited 27 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE