Help needed ID'ing an English Uniform

[timothedubois]

I came across this photo in my late grandmother's album and would like to know what uniform the adult man is wearing.  I assume this photo would have been taken in England (or North Wales), and -- with slightly less confidence -- that it would have been taken during or around WWI.  

 

Grateful for any insight.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, timothedubois said:

I came across this photo in my late grandmother's album and would like to know what uniform the adult man is wearing.  I assume this photo would have been taken in England (or North Wales), and -- with slightly less confidence -- that it would have been taken during or around WWI.  

 

Grateful for any insight.

It’s not the clearest of photos, but the collar badges appear to be grenades, which together with the approximate shape of his headdress insignia (roughly circular), seems likely to be the Corps of Royal Engineers.  However, I’m only looking on a phone screen and so it will require corroborating views by others to confirm.

Edited 25 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

Looks like ASC to my eyes.        Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Looks like ASC to my eyes.        Pete.

Thank you Pete, I did wonder about the ASC in relation to the cap insignia, which although overall a circular blob to me, seemed to have a hint of starlike points, but the thing that’s thrown me completely is what’s going on in the collar area.  Is there a flaw on the photo there?  If there’re stars on the collar too then I reckon you’ve cracked it with Army Service Corps.

Edited 25 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

Yes, same size cap and collar badges of the post-1911 pattern.     Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Yes, same size cap and collar badges of the post-1911 pattern.     Pete.

Fantastic, ASC he is and that chimes nicely with the Stohwasser gaiters and spurs.  He’s also wearing the original pattern of officers SD that was introduced in 1902 with the closed collar. 

 

 

Edited 25 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

The Officer is a Lt Colonel, as seen by the crown over a pip on his lower sleeves and the three bands circling around the cuffs.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

The Officer is a Lt Colonel, as seen by the crown over a pip on his lower sleeves and the three bands circling around the cuffs.

Yes I agree Bob.  The photo below is just to show the type of collar.

Edited 25 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I agree Bob.  The photo below is just to show the type of collar.

Thanks for adding the extra pictures FROGSMILE. There is either a medal ribbon about an inch over his left breast pocket, or a mark on the picture. Hard to tell even on a big screen. Edit; On looking a bit harder I think it is a medal ribbon.

Edited 25 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thanks for adding the extra pictures FROGSMILE. There is either a medal ribbon about an inch over his left breast pocket, or a mark on the picture. Hard to tell even on a big screen. Edit; On looking a bit harder I think it is a medal ribbon.

It doesn’t look like Boer War.  Perhaps India General Service Medal.

[Bob Davies]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It doesn’t look like Boer War.  Perhaps India General Service Medal.

Maybe @timothedubois can shed more light on this Officer which would help identify it? It certainly looks more like an India General Service Medal ribbon. There may be a narrow dark stripe then a light stripe then a dark then a light. The first narrow stripe should not be there for IGS ribbon.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Maybe @timothedubois can shed more light on this Officer which would help identify it? It certainly looks more like an India General Service Medal ribbon. There may be a narrow dark stripe then a light stripe then a dark then a light. The first narrow stripe should not be there for IGS ribbon.

Yes I’m not sure which one but I perhaps one of those medals with a variety of green and purple vertical stripes Bob.  There were several I think if I remember rightly.

[timothedubois]

Outstanding.  As I understand it, the photo likely shows a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Service Corps, possibly with an India General Service Medal ribbon, taken in or after 1911.  Thank you all. 

 

Unfortunately I can't shed any more light on him.  This image was in a pile of photos kept by my grandmother (born Manchester, 1916), the rest of which show people we either recognize as family members or (because they recur) assume were friends of hers.  We don't recognize him as an uncle, or the boys as first cousins, of hers and she had no siblings.  For all I know -- because there has been speculation about an affair -- he could be her father!  

Edited 25 March , 2023 by timothedubois

[J T Gray]

I'm guessing that the enormous ball the wee lad is sat on is a pushball: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushball

Not that that has any bearing on the original question, it just rang a bell in a becobwebbed corner of my hippocampus.

[Bob Davies]

24 minutes ago, timothedubois said:

Outstanding.  As I understand it, the photo likely shows a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Service Corps, possibly with an India General Service Medal ribbon, taken in or after 1911.  Thank you all. 

 

Unfortunately I can't shed any more light on him.  This image was in a pile of photos kept by my grandmother (born Manchester, 1916), the rest of which show people we either recognize as family members or (because they recur) assume were friends of hers.  We don't recognize him as an uncle, or the boys as first cousins, of hers and she had no siblings.  For all I know -- because there has been speculation about an affair -- he could be her father!  

Thank you. The only India General Service Medal ribbon I know of is this one, courtesy Wikipedia for the photo. Someone such as @PRC who has a real skill in identifying people may come to the rescue? Any names that you can give us may help.

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you. The only India General Service Medal ribbon I know of is this one, courtesy Wikipedia for the photo. Someone such as @PRC who has a real skill in identifying people may come to the rescue? Any names that you can give us may help.

One is ‘India’ and the other ‘India General Service’.  Both would show quite dark I think.

[johntaylor]

14 hours ago, J T Gray said:

I'm guessing that the enormous ball the wee lad is sat on is a pushball: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushball

Not that that has any bearing on the original question, it just rang a bell in a becobwebbed corner of my hippocampus.

I was going to ask about the ball. I've never heard of pushball before - I wonder if it's time for a revival?

[6RRF]

 

I think it turned out to be a bit rough - hence what look like bullet splashes on the one in the photie 

[FROGSMILE]

The construction method of that enormous push ball is much more similar to a medicine ball than say a football.  Like segments of an orange and presumably using up several large hides for each ball.  They must have been expensive.

Edited 26 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[timothedubois]

16 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you. The only India General Service Medal ribbon I know of is this one, courtesy Wikipedia for the photo. Someone such as @PRC who has a real skill in identifying people may come to the rescue? Any names that you can give us may help.

Unfortunately the only names I know are for my gran and great-gran; if their connection to this officer was either friendship or an affair, those aren't likely to help either.  There is this one other mysterious photo though -- showing another (or the same?) man in uniform, probably around 1918 and almost certainly in North Wales.  Less to go on here, but does the overcoat or hat mean anything to any of you?

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, timothedubois said:

Unfortunately the only names I know are for my gran and great-gran; if their connection to this officer was either friendship or an affair, those aren't likely to help either.  There is this one other mysterious photo though -- showing another (or the same?) man in uniform, probably around 1918 and almost certainly in North Wales.  Less to go on here, but does the overcoat or hat mean anything to any of you?

It’s the same ASC cap badge and there is a facial resemblance to the earlier man.  He is wearing an iconic “British Warm” overcoat of the type introduced as an alternative to the greatcoat in either, a taupe, or drab khaki colour (the former in this officer’s case).  They were not to be worn with formed bodies of troops, unlike the greatcoat.  Made of a very heavy (32 oz) Melton cloth they were very warm.  They were mandatory for full colonel and above but optional for officers below that rank.

Although only the top part of the jacket beneath the coat is visible, it’s clear that he’s had the collar modified to the 1912 style that enabled a collar and tie to be worn beneath, which along with his slightly more aged appearance supports the supposed date of 1918, probably around 10-years after the earlier photo.

Edited 26 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

I hope I've understood the points made so far - otherwise I've just wasted an hour of my life

So is the consensus of @CorporalPunishment and @FROGSMILE that the various elements of the uniform on display would when taken together suggest the original picture was taken in 1911 or later?

And the general feel is that it was taken in the UK?

It's not been mentioned but I would also suggest the presence of the children and the woman, (possibly the children and wife of the officer) would tend to point to a pre 5th August 1914 date. If we assume for a moment that they are his two boys then are looking at a married man, and judging from the age of the oldest child, (5-7?) then even if the picture was taken on that final August Bank Holiday you'd be looking for a man married no later that 1909.

Working from the 1911 angle I've been looking at Harts Annual Army List from 1911 to 1914 inclusive. During that time there were 36 unique individuals who were Lieutenant-Colonels in the Army Service Corps. But checking their active service entries 29 I believe can be ruled out as they received either the Queens South Africa medal, (which this man doesn't appear to be wearing), and \ or they would have had an entitlement to wear two or more service \ campaign \ gallantry medals.

The ones shown in red I believe can be ruled out. xx means I couldn't find the relevant entry in Harts.

Of the 7 left:-

The drawing of Brigadier-General Sir Charles Wallis King, Kt., K.C.V.O., C.B., C.M.G., dated 1919, shows him with a dimpled chin. https://www.rct.uk/collection/916984/brigadier-general-sir-charles-wallis-king-kt-k-c-v-o-c-b-c-m-g-1861-1943

Edward Thornton Buttanshaw, aged 46, born Bengal, and a Brevet Colonel in the Army Service Corps, was recorded as the married head of the household at 1 King Edward Road, Rochester on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, taken 2nd April 1911. He and wife Margaret Evelyn have been married 20 years. The marriage has produced 2 children, both still alive but neither living with them. A family tree on the familysearch website lists their only children as Evelyn May Gwenllian Buttanshaw, (1891-1954) and Edward Henry Underwood Buttanshaw, (1892-1915). No War Services entry in Harts for Edward senior so may not have any medal entitlement.

Arthur Edwin Cuming retired 20th February 1912 which severely restricts the period in which the photograph could have been taken. No War Services entry in Harts so may not have any medal entitlement.

Harry Lionel Humphreys promoted Colonel 11th July 1911 which again severely restricts the period in which the photograph could have been taken. No War Services entry in Harts so may not have any medal entitlement.

Astley Terry, aged 45, born Weybridge, Surrey and a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Service Corps was records as the married head of the household at 50 Holland Street, West London on the 1911 Census. He doesn't state how long he and wife Mildred have been married, but the union has produced three children, all then still alive. The two still at home are daughters Winifred, (12, born Farnbrough, Hampshire) and Marjory, (7, born Colombo, Ceylon). The marriage of a Astley Herbert Terry to a Mildred Oliphant Boileau was recorded in the St Georges Hanover Square District of London in Q1 1896. An online family tree has a son Astley Thomas Terry born in 1897 at St. Peters Port, Guernsey, Channel Islands and a Boarder at Cheltenham by the time of the 1911 Census. http://www.holmesacourt.org/hac/4/9251.htm
No War Services entry in Harts for Astley senior so may not have any medal entitlement.

Frederick Maurice Wilson is shown stationed in England in both the 1911 & 1912 editions of Harts, but doesn't appear to be recorded on the 1911 Census. There is a likely match on the 1901 Census of England & Wales. A 32 year old Frederick M. Wilson, a married Captain in the Army Service Corps, born Barningham, Norfolk, was recorded along with wife Lorna S. Wilson, (aged 27 and born Shipton, Wiltshire) living with his parents at Barking, Suffolk, where his father was the Clergyman. The marriage of a Frederick Maurice Wilson to a Lorna Sophia Glynn Baker was recorded in the Shepton Mallet District of Somerset in Q2 1897. The Somerset Marriage records lists him as an Officer in H.M. Army.  A composite family tree on the familysearch website lists just one child - a Maurice James Fraser Wilson who would go on to be ordained.  Frederick had been awarded just the Ashanti Star, although I'm not sure that is the ribbon on display in our original mystery photograph.

Image courtesy Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashanti_Star

Ernest Carden Freeth Gillespie has a picture in a Spinks catalogue on the issu website but access seems incredibly difficult.  The best I can do is this snapshot from Google images, which appears to show him with a dimpled chin and as a Brigadier General.

Image courtesy https://www.google.com/search?q=Ernest+Carden+Freeth+Gillespie&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjEvuOKu_n9AhX5mycCHeGcCXcQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=Ernest+Carden+Freeth+Gillespie&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1CECliECmDjDWgAcAB4AIABRYgBgwGSAQEymAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=dSggZISwFvm3nsEP4bmmuAc&bih=661&biw=1408&client=firefox-b-d#imgrc=LEHqOUBOWlXdYM

Frederick Maurice Wilson for me would be the one to prove or eliminate. Attached for the latter part of the period to the Training Establishment at Aldershot, I wonder if that armband our mystery officer is wearing could be that of an umpire in some kind of training exercise.

That's as far as I've got for now - time to take a break and have a think!

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 26 March , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[6RRF]

That's impressive. I'm inclined to agree that the brassard could be decisive - it may of course denote that he is the referee for the pushball match [?]

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

I hope I've understood the points made so far - otherwise I've just wasted an hour of my life

So is the consensus of @CorporalPunishment and @FROGSMILE that the various elements of the uniform on display would when taken together suggest the original picture was taken in 1911 or later?

And the general feel is that it was taken in the UK?

It's not been mentioned but I would also suggest the presence of the children and the woman, (possibly the children and wife of the officer) would tend to point to a pre 5th August 1914 date. If we assume for a moment that they are his two boys then are looking at a married man, and judging from the age of the oldest child, (5-7?) then even if the picture was taken on that final August Bank Holiday you'd be looking for a man married no later that 1909.

Working from the 1911 angle I've been looking at Harts Annual Army List from 1911 to 1914 inclusive. During that time there were 36 unique individuals who were Lieutenant-Colonels in the Army Service Corps. But checking their active service entries 29 I believe can be ruled out as they received either the Queens South Africa medal, (which this man doesn't appear to be wearing), and \ or they would have had an entitlement to wear two or more service \ campaign \ gallantry medals.

The ones shown in red I believe can be ruled out. xx means I couldn't find the relevant entry in Harts.

Of the 7 left:-

The drawing of Brigadier-General Sir Charles Wallis King, Kt., K.C.V.O., C.B., C.M.G., dated 1919, shows him with a dimpled chin. https://www.rct.uk/collection/916984/brigadier-general-sir-charles-wallis-king-kt-k-c-v-o-c-b-c-m-g-1861-1943

Edward Thornton Buttanshaw, aged 46, born Bengal, and a Brevet Colonel in the Army Service Corps, was recorded as the married head of the household at 1 King Edward Road, Rochester on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, taken 2nd April 1911. He and wife Margaret Evelyn have been married 20 years. The marriage has produced 2 children, both still alive but neither living with them. A family tree on the familysearch website lists their only children as Evelyn May Gwenllian Buttanshaw, (1891-1954) and Edward Henry Underwood Buttanshaw, (1892-1915). No War Services entry in Harts for Edward senior so may not have any medal entitlement.

Arthur Edwin Cuming retired 20th February 1912 which severely restricts the period in which the photograph could have been taken. No War Services entry in Harts so may not have any medal entitlement.

Harry Lionel Humphreys promoted Colonel 11th July 1911 which again severely restricts the period in which the photograph could have been taken. No War Services entry in Harts so may not have any medal entitlement.

Astley Terry, aged 45, born Weybridge, Surrey and a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Service Corps was records as the married head of the household at 50 Holland Street, West London on the 1911 Census. He doesn't state how long he and wife Mildred have been married, but the union has produced three children, all then still alive. The two still at home are daughters Winifred, (12, born Farnbrough, Hampshire) and Marjory, (7, born Colombo, Ceylon). The marriage of a Astley Herbert Terry to a Mildred Oliphant Boileau was recorded in the St Georges Hanover Square District of London in Q1 1896. An online family tree has a son Astley Thomas Terry born in 1897 at St. Peters Port, Guernsey, Channel Islands and a Boarder at Cheltenham by the time of the 1911 Census. http://www.holmesacourt.org/hac/4/9251.htm
No War Services entry in Harts for Astley senior so may not have any medal entitlement.

Frederick Maurice Wilson is shown stationed in England in both the 1911 & 1912 editions of Harts, but doesn't appear to be recorded on the 1911 Census. There is a likely match on the 1901 Census of England & Wales. A 32 year old Frederick M. Wilson, a married Captain in the Army Service Corps, born Barningham, Norfolk, was recorded along with wife Lorna S. Wilson, (aged 27 and born Shipton, Wiltshire) living with his parents at Barking, Suffolk, where his father was the Clergyman. The marriage of a Frederick Maurice Wilson to a Lorna Sophia Glynn Baker was recorded in the Shepton Mallet District of Somerset in Q2 1897. The Somerset Marriage records lists him as an Officer in H.M. Army.  A composite family tree on the familysearch website lists just one child - a Maurice James Fraser Wilson who would go on to be ordained.  Frederick had been awarded just the Ashanti Star, although I'm not sure that is the ribbon on display in our original mystery photograph.

Image courtesy Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashanti_Star

Ernest Carden Freeth Gillespie has a picture in a Spinks catalogue on the issu website but access seems incredibly difficult.  The best I can do is this snapshot from Google images, which appears to show him with a dimpled chin and as a Brigadier General.

Image courtesy https://www.google.com/search?q=Ernest+Carden+Freeth+Gillespie&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjEvuOKu_n9AhX5mycCHeGcCXcQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=Ernest+Carden+Freeth+Gillespie&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1CECliECmDjDWgAcAB4AIABRYgBgwGSAQEymAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=dSggZISwFvm3nsEP4bmmuAc&bih=661&biw=1408&client=firefox-b-d#imgrc=LEHqOUBOWlXdYM

Frederick Maurice Wilson for me would be the one to prove or eliminate. Attached for the latter part of the period to the Training Establishment at Aldershot, I wonder if that armband our mystery officer is wearing could be that of an umpire in some kind of training exercise.

That's as far as I've got for now - time to take a break and have a think!

Cheers,
Peter

I agree with the assumptions that you outlined in your early paragraphs Peter.  The improvised type of armlet/brassard worn by the officer is commensurate with an exercise umpire, or he might be the Camp Commandant of what seems to be a substantial tented encampment.  The marquee type of tents directly behind him were usually used for headquarters and messes where larger gatherings took place.  It’s occurred to me that with a date of around 1911-1912 the scene might be connected with one of the large Army manoeuvres that took place in the few years just before the war.  It was traditional during manoeuvres for there to be a visitor’s day towards the end that often coincided with an opportunity for families to briefly join their menfolk before returning home and the encampment being wound up and dismantled.

Edited 26 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[johntaylor]

I know it's a bit of a side issue, but the background on pushball is fascinating - thanks!

John