Help identifying rank and battalion

[Caroline Kay]

Yes I saw the 3 Bells on there too which could be his wife's  family.  I pass Market Weighton regularly so I will visit it.

I now have to try and reunite this photo with a family member if possible, the chap who I got this from has got back to me and said he didn't pull it from a skip a work colleague did, it was indeed from a house renovation in Walkington, but the man has since passed away so no chance of finding out which house in the village it is. 

 

[mancpal]

I’ve been reading this thread from the start with fascination. After years on the forum I’m still frequently amazed by the results achieved.

However, I am undecided as to whether the 2 photos are the same man. Granted there is a definite likeness though to my eyes the ears differ in that in one shot he appears to have a much thinner rim, also I see a curve to the nose on one and straight on the other. 
I only have 2 photos of my grandad in uniform taken less than 2yrs apart, one is the proud 19yr old new recruit and the 2nd a 21yr old who looks 31 having endured the Somme and 3rd Ypres losing a leg in the process. The ravages he’d witnessed in a comparatively short period showed on his face and that’s why I’m  undecided.

I have been known to draw the occasional portrait so qualify the above after hours of staring at photos. Hopefully you’ll recognise the chap below

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Caroline Kay said:

Yes I saw the 3 Bells on there too which could be his wife's  family.  I pass Market Weighton regularly so I will visit it.

I now have to try and reunite this photo with a family member if possible, the chap who I got this from has got back to me and said he didn't pull it from a skip a work colleague did, it was indeed from a house renovation in Walkington, but the man has since passed away so no chance of finding out which house in the village it is. 

 

I hope you’re able to thank that thoughtful man who saved the photo Caroline, even if not the fellow who pulled it from the skip.

Perhaps you can trace the family via online family trees.

You made some sound points regarding facial similarities between the two photos and for what it’s worth I spent a lot of time training in facial recognition and then for a period putting it into practice.  Personally I’m wholly content that the two photos are of the same man and I wish you well with tracking down the family.  I’m sure that as Ken said, the officer’s old school and possibly the Green Howard’s would be pleased to have electronic copies of the portrait too.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Caroline Kay]

I will most certainly try my hardest to get this portrait into the rightful place. I did also find that Captain Scott is one of the war memorials at Historical Sledmere House it says he was a volunteer cyclist in the regt and if I remember correctly there is a WW1 small museum there .  I also found this sad article which is quite recent 

 https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11557142.pocklington-honours-those-who-never-returned-from-war/

[RaySearching]

I pop out for an hour or two and the forum pals have been on the rampage and filled in most of the blanks 

Regarding the images posted

The problem with newspaper images is that they are often distorted and stretched to fit the newspaper format ,hence the variations in images

research indicates that George Jefferson Scott  and Jenny had two children

Victoria born 1912

and a son born 1915 also named George Jefferson Scott after his father

Victoria married in 1936

 His medals were applied for on behalf of his son George 

I have not yet traced Georges son George 

Victoria is believed to have died in cape town South Africa 

 

Ray

[FROGSMILE]

That’s very interesting Ray and thank you for taking the trouble to research that, it’s nice to know that the family continued its lineage.

[RaySearching]

His headstone

He is also commemorated on the family grave marker in Market Weighton cemetery

Sad that he died on Christmas Day 1915

which will have put a bit of a damper on the family xmas celebrations

[Caroline Kay]

That’s great info, am amazed by the speed of the research. Yes so sad he died Christmas Day and also was sad to read to personal information of how he was shot his last words and also how well loved by his men he was.   I’m hoping that his son has children and they still live in the UK . If I draw a total blank with that what would be the next best place for the portrait? 
At present he had been moved down into my living room for all to see and hear about especially my sons and he is going no where near the attic please rest assured 

[RaySearching]

Just checked out the family memorial In Market Weighton

more sad news

George's wife Jenny died on the 23rd March 1918 aged 33

The headstone indicates that George was mentioned in dispatches

 

Ray

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Caroline Kay said:

That’s great info, am amazed by the speed of the research. Yes so sad he died Christmas Day and also was sad to read to personal information of how he was shot his last words and also how well loved by his men he was.   I’m hoping that his son has children and they still live in the UK . If I draw a total blank with that what would be the next best place for the portrait? 
At present he had been moved down into my living room for all to see and hear about especially my sons and he is going no where near the attic please rest assured 

I would recommend you contact both the regimental museum (Green Howard’s) and his old school mentioned a little earlier in the thread by Ken.

1.https://greenhowards.org.uk/visit/contact/

2.https://www.stpetersyork.org.uk

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Caroline Kay]

2 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Just checked out the family memorial In Market Weighton

more sad news

George's wife Jenny died on the 23rd March 1918 aged 33

The headstone indicates that George was mentioned in dispatches

 

Ray

How sad, the children were so young to lose both parents.  I looked in the dispatches but couldn't find this George Scott. 

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I would recommend you contact both the regimental museum (Green Howard’s) and his old school mentioned a little earlier in the thread by Ken.

Forgive my ignorance but is the Green Howards related to the Yorkshire Regiment he was in?

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Caroline Kay said:

Long story short, according to the information posted in the threads above George Jefferson Scott  relieved my grandads battalion in the trenches and that's sadly when he was killed, however I don't know exactly when my grandad joined up

See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/alexandra-princess-of-waless-own-yorkshire-regiment-green-howards/ The 4th Battallion was in the same Brigade as the 1/5th if you want to research your grandfather suggest you start a new thread.

To try and pin him down a bit more work on the officers who went to France with the Battalion In April:-

Advance Party

Captain James Albert Raymond Thompson*
(Lt Col kia 27 May 1918 Age 42)
Croix de Guerre (France). Son of James and Eliza Thomson; husband of Ethel Norah Mayson Thomson, of The Uplands, Malton, Yorks. Born at Huddersfield.)

*1908 Gazette formerly 2nd Volunteer Battalion Alexandra (Princess of Wales Own)

Main Body

Cyril Herbert Pearce**
LT.COLONEL C.H. Pearce W/Yorks and E Riding Yeomanry
11 Parliament Street Hull
Alt Finner Camp Ballyshannon

Major John Bowlt Purvis**
44 The Promenade Bridlington
Alt  6 Princess Terrace Bridlington

Captain George Jefferson Scott **

KIA 25. 12.1915 Medals to Master G.J. Scott (son)
C/O
Market Weighton but another cryptic entry on the card

 

**Originals 1908 Gazette from 2nd Volunteer Battallion East Yorkshire

Captain Geoffrey Carew Barber

KIA 25.4.1915 Menin Gate
Age 24 Son of Walter and Emmeline Barber West Ayton Yorkshire
Medals to father J.W. Barber West Ayton S..O.
Yorkshire

Captain Frederick William Robson

Lt Col  D.S.O attached Durham Light Infantry

KIA 28 March 1918 Pozieres Memorial

Son of the late Thomas and Eva Robson, of Pembroke Lodge, Pocklington, York.

Captain E.G.C. Bagshawe

KIA 20 July 1916 age 36 years Son of the late Judge Bagshawe, K.C.

He was the only one I could find a photo for (perhaps Ray will have more luck with the others ) Bagshawe was in India in 1904 I think we can eliminate him

(Sorry can't upload images at the moment his picture is here https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000748%2f19160729%2f150&stringtohighlight=e g c bagshawe  ) Link not working either not sure what's happening with content

Geographically then Scott is the closest to where the picture was found.

 

[Allan1892]

Well done everyone - excellent research yet again by forum members

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Caroline Kay said:

How sad, the children were so young to lose both parents.  I looked in the dispatches but couldn't find this George Scott. 

Forgive my ignorance but is the Green Howards related to the Yorkshire Regiment he was in?

Yes the full regimental title then was Alexandra, Princess of Wales’s Own Yorkshire Regiment.  Their nickname had long been the Green Howards (there was another regiment known as the Buff Howard’s (the colours refer to collar and cuffs on uniform)).  Later on when fashions changed and the Army was shrinking the regiment changed its title to align with its nickname.  Alexandra had been a Danish princess and from that time onward a member of the Danish Royal Family was always Colonel in chief of the Regiment.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Caroline Kay]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes the full regimental title then was Princess Alexandra of Wales’s Own Yorkshire Regiment.  Their nickname had long been the Green Howards (there was another regiment known as the Buff Howard’s (the colours refer to collar and cuffs on uniform)).  Later on when fashions changed and the Army was shrinking the regiment changed its title to align with its nickname.  Alexandra had been a Danish princess and from that time onward a member of the Danish Royal Family was always Colonel of the Regiment.

Thanks so much

[RaySearching]

12 minutes ago, Caroline Kay said:

If I draw a total blank with that what would be the next best place for the portrait? 

I would suggest that the portrate stays in the local area   where he was born and resided

I am not a great lover of the Green Howards Museum whilst registered as a charity it is run on a commercial baisis

The late Bill Danby  of the 4th Yorks website arranged an appointment with them to hand over paper copys of his website and copies of the all the photographs he had they insisted that he paid the entrance fee on arrival  and then had the cheek to ask him if he would donate his grandfathers medals to the museum he was most annoyed 

I have heard of similar storys of people requesting info only to be told they will not release any information unless payment is made for the research

apart from the winge its a fine museum

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RaySearching]

As an aside

I did come across the following Gazette entry when seeking the identity of captains of the 5th Bn

and a question How many  Captains would there be in a battalion at any given time

 

Ray

[Caroline Kay]

20 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

I would suggest that the portrate stays in the local area   where he was born and resided

I am not a great lover of the Green Howards Museum whilst registered as a charity it is run on a commercial baisis

The late Bill Danby  of the 4th Yorks website arranged an appointment with them to hand over paper copys of his website and copies of the all the photographs he had they insisted that he paid the entrance fee on arrival  and then had the cheek to ask him if he would donate his grandfathers medals to the museum he was most annoyed 

I have heard of similar storys of people requesting info only to be told they will not release any information unless payment is made for the research

apart from the winge its a fine museum

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I can’t find a living relative I will approach the pocklington historical society who did the article. I did notice at the base of the family grave there are flowers left which may or may not be a relative. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, RaySearching said:

I would suggest that the portrate stays in the local area   where he was born and resided

I am not a great lover of the Green Howards Museum whilst registered as a charity it is run on a commercial baisis

The late Bill Danby  of the 4th Yorks website arranged an appointment with them to hand over paper copys of his website and copies of the all the photographs he had they insisted that he paid the entrance fee on arrival  and then had the cheek to ask him if he would donate his grandfathers medals to the museum he was most annoyed 

I have heard of similar storys of people requesting info only to be told they will not release any information unless payment is made for the research

apart from the winge its a fine museum

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ray, first I must make clear that what you described irritates me just as much as you and your friend, and you will understand that with our shared interest in military history we are kindred spirits.

However, I must speak up in support of the museum, as it’s really not the museum’s fault and all regimental museums that are a part of the Army Museums Ogilby Trust are obliged to follow the same fiscal rules.

I was serving when the saga first began and have watched the situation evolve right up until my retirement some decades later.  It began with Margaret Thatcher’s government, when the funding of military museums by the MOD (who paid an annual running costs grant) was formally reviewed.  In short they were told they had to operate more like businesses and could no longer expect the same level of funding.

The military museums were also told to look at their location in relation to access and footfall and consider better options, such as merging with local municipal museums to achieve an economy of scale in running costs.

This reform was all to be done under the umbrella of the already existing Army Museums Ogilby Trust, a long standing charitable institution, which was to be used as an umbrella organisation to channel funds more efficiently.

Subsequent governments then made further cuts with one of the most recent being the coalition government that introduced austerity as a panacean mantra.

As part of this extended revolution in dusty old museums all were told that they must monetise requests for research and access to documents and old photographs, introduce shops with merchandise, look at their entry fees and do everything they could to enhance their income or alternatively die.

Many regimental museums did go under as a result of these policies, others merged with county, or regional museums, and just a very few survived extant.

This seemingly grasping attitude is what you experienced and I’m sorry to say that the museums are audited and expected to be hard nosed.  What little central funding they still receive has to be justified.

Unfortunately that is the way of the world and much as I abhor it I fear that we must work around it and it would be a shame for this photo’s submission to the museum, or a copy of it, to be ruled out on a point of principle that we don’t like what has been foisted upon its modus operandi. 

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RaySearching]

Frogsmile 

Thanks for the feedback

I have had no success in tracing George's son George 

But I believe he may have served in WW2

 

UK, London Gazettes World War II Military Notices, 1939-1945

 Name:  George Jefferson Scott

Military Date: 1 Jan 1945

War:    World War II

Military Unit:  Palestine R

Military Regiment Number:    338906

Publication Date:        27 Feb 1945

Publication Place:       London, England

Volume Number:         36962

Refence Number:        36962

Page number:   1189

Ray

[Dave66]

31 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Frogsmile 

Thanks for the feedback

I have had no success in tracing George's son George 

But I believe he may have served in WW2

 

UK, London Gazettes World War II Military Notices, 1939-1945

 Name:  George Jefferson Scott

Military Date: 1 Jan 1945

War:    World War II

Military Unit:  Palestine R

Military Regiment Number:    338906

Publication Date:        27 Feb 1945

Publication Place:       London, England

Volume Number:         36962

Refence Number:        36962

Page number:   1189

Ray

Here’s the gazette link, 2lt Egypt section….https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36962/supplement/1193

Relinquishes commission 1948….https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/38574/supplement/1598

Edited 12 March , 2023 by Dave66

[Allan1892]

16 hours ago, RaySearching said:

The late Bill Danby  of the 4th Yorks website arranged an appointment with them to hand over paper copys of his website and copies of the all the photographs he had they insisted that he paid the entrance fee on arrival  and then had the cheek to ask him if he would donate his grandfathers medals to the museum he was most annoyed 

Thankfully not all military museums are like this. Several years ago, I contacted the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders museum at Stirling Castle to offer them photographs of my uncle (including POW photos - he was captured 26/12/41 by the Japanese); letters to and from him and several other personal items. The museum were very happy to have them and when we arrived at the due time, we were met with a very knowledgeable volunteer (ex A & S) who gave us a conducted tour of the museum before we handed over our donations. In addition, he had searched for records held by the museum that related to my uncle and his battalion and spent a good hour taking us through the material.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Allan1892 said:

Thankfully not all military museums are like this. Several years ago, I contacted the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders museum at Stirling Castle to offer them photographs of my uncle (including POW photos - he was captured 26/12/41 by the Japanese); letters to and from him and several other personal items. The museum were very happy to have them and when we arrived at the due time, we were met with a very knowledgeable volunteer (ex A & S) who gave us a conducted tour of the museum before we handed over our donations. In addition, he had searched for records held by the museum that related to my uncle and his battalion and spent a good hour taking us through the material.

It is those volunteers that make such a huge difference I think Allan.  Sadly not all museums have them and when I spoke to one Ulster museum representative by phone during Covid she mentioned the difficulty that they were having.  It’s heartwarming to learn from your example that there are sometimes still good outcomes though.

[Allan1892]

18 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Victoria married in 1936

 His medals were applied for on behalf of his son George 

Victoria's marriage took place in the civil registration district of Pocklington which on the 1 April 1937 changed to the civil registration district of Howden. A search for births registered in that area with a surname of Sugden and mother's maiden name of Scott has found the following:

Annette Sugden, birth registered Quarter 4 1939 in the Howden registration district

Kathleen M Sugden, birth registered Quarter 3 1942 in the Howden registration district

Elizabeth S Sugden, birth registered Quarter 1 1945 in the Howden registration district

Searches for marriages of these three ladies has drawn a blank and I can't find deaths under their birth names.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

Victoria's marriage took place in the civil registration district of Pocklington which on the 1 April 1937 changed to the civil registration district of Howden. A search for births registered in that area with a surname of Sugden and mother's maiden name of Scott has found the following:

Annette Sugden, birth registered Quarter 4 1939 in the Howden registration district

Kathleen M Sugden, birth registered Quarter 3 1942 in the Howden registration district

Elizabeth S Sugden, birth registered Quarter 1 1945 in the Howden registration district

Searches for marriages of these three ladies has drawn a blank and I can't find deaths under their birth names.

Good job Allan, narrowing things down significantly now, let’s hope that they had progeny.