Silver discharge badge found

[Dave1340]

Hi all. The meeting went really well. Zoe and her dad have the badge back they where very emotional. I printed off all your replies and gave them the info to  which they all thanked you very much. The bbc reporter was gob smacked how quickly you all turned this around and how we found the family.  Can’t thank everyone for the excellent help with Fred’s badge. 
they said it might go on tonight on bbc look north or tomorrow evening depending how the editing goes. I did give your forum a shout hopefully that will be in report

 

thanks again 

kind regards 

dave 

[RussT]

Many thanks for the up-date - very pleased it went well.

If you get to know where the report might get loaded to BBC iplayer or the like, please let us know and/or post a link.

Regards

Russ

[Interested]

Good to hear.  Well done.

[Dave1340]

Here’s a write up bbc done. It’s going be on bbc north 6.30 tonight. I’ll record it and send video in case iplayer not happening 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-64949147?fbclid=IwAR0jug1u3SnGBKznyFztQRSkQiVzRDR9hZPQKo-IpbRukF_Xjk-EysNbp3E

 

cheers lads

[Dave1340]

Hi lads they did the report but unfortunately they never showed the bit I bigged you up. We talked loads and I guess they edit what they want. Sorry I did try. 
the family are so greatful for you help as I am. 
here’s a link to the news thanks again 

dave 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001k4ng/look-north-north-east-and-cumbria-evening-news-14032023

[RussT]

Thanks for posting the links Dave - a great story.

And thanks for trying to get us mentioned - was not your fault - it always happens.

I see the family say they are thinking of donating it to a Yorkshire museum - of course that is obviously their decision and it does sound, on the face of it, to be a noble and generous thing to do. But I would just like to make a few observations on that - which you may or may not want to pass on gently to the family.

1) The Badges were quite common - around 1 million were issued. Any half decent antique shop will likely have a couple on display and for sale.

2) If a museum were to accept it, I doubt very much they would display it. If they did display it, it would not be for long - it would then go in one of their dusty archive drawers with plenty of other items like that, including other examples of these Badges.

3) Every now and again, museums have a clean out and dispose of/sell items they no longer "need" - so in "x" years time, this Badge might find itself in the open market and once again effectively lost to the family. After all that hard work and incredible luck in getting it back to the family.

In my view, this is a family piece - the number uniquely identifies it to the man and he no doubt likely wore (but unfortunately lost) it. An amazing feat and story has managed to re-unite it back to the family, where in my humble view it belongs - hopefully proudly treasured and passed down the family generations as a symbol to a brave man's service.

Regards

Russ

 

 

 

[Dave1340]

2 hours ago, RussT said:

Thanks for posting the links Dave - a great story.

And thanks for trying to get us mentioned - was not your fault - it always happens.

I see the family say they are thinking of donating it to a Yorkshire museum - of course that is obviously their decision and it does sound, on the face of it, to be a noble and generous thing to do. But I would just like to make a few observations on that - which you may or may not want to pass on gently to the family.

1) The Badges were quite common - around 1 million were issued. Any half decent antique shop will likely have a couple on display and for sale.

2) If a museum were to accept it, I doubt very much they would display it. If they did display it, it would not be for long - it would then go in one of their dusty archive drawers with plenty of other items like that, including other examples of these Badges.

3) Every now and again, museums have a clean out and dispose of/sell items they no longer "need" - so in "x" years time, this Badge might find itself in the open market and once again effectively lost to the family. After all that hard work and incredible luck in getting it back to the family.

In my view, this is a family piece - the number uniquely identifies it to the man and he no doubt likely wore (but unfortunately lost) it. An amazing feat and story has managed to re-unite it back to the family, where in my humble view it belongs - hopefully proudly treasured and passed down the family generations as a symbol to a brave man's service.

Regards

Russ

 

 

 

Thanks russ

ive passed it on mate. Zoe said they will discuss it as her dad sprung it on her about the museum so they need to talk. I agree with you best keep it in the family 

kind regards 

dave 

[Dave1340]

21 hours ago, RussT said:

Zoe is going to write to a local paper the following  as she wants everyone to receive the thank you they deserve where the tv and daily mirror missed out  it follows as this  

I’ve added this additional info at the bottom

This story has been told by the bbc and was also picked up by the daily mirror but some important credits and information were omitted. Anthony expressed concerns that whenever a metal detectorist story hits the news, it sparks interest in rogue activity which paints the community in a bad light. 

The Great War forum were mentioned in our filming with the bbc but that gratitude was lost in the editing room. Their role was pivotal to this story so they deserve recognition. 
So I’m submitting this untold side of the story to you as the local newspaper in the hope that you can run the credits as well as this new slant. Many thanks. Zoe Hancock

 

 

On Sunday 5th March, Dave Batcheler was out metal detecting with his partner Sharon Wilson, a hobby that they enjoy together as members of North Detecting events, an official club with over 900 members, run by Anthony Pickering, and operating in the Northallerton area with full permission from the land owners. 
What started out as an ordinary day for these hobbyists, turned into a most extraordinary day when Dave received a strong signal from his detector. And dug up a WW1 silver war badge. 
Over the following day, Dave liaised with The Great War (1914/1918) forum, who proved to be an invaluable source of information, providing Dave with the name Fred Brown, 4th battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment and his address at time of enlistment, and details of his injured leg which occurred while he served in France, and ultimately led to his discharge from service and the reason for him being the recipient of the war badge. 

With this information, it was recommended that an ancestry search might yield some results, and Dave was able to link Fred Brown to the address on the 1911 census entry, where he was living with his Brother, John Thomas Brown, sister in law Kate Brown, and their three children. 

This family, and census entry appeared on the ancestry tree of Fred’s great great niece, so by Tuesday morning, Dave had been able to find not only the name of the soldier, but also a living relative. 

On Tuesday morning, Zoe Hancock (nee Brown) was waiting in a supermarket queue when she decided to check her emails. Seeing the message from Dave,  her jaw hit the floor. Recognising the names of her great grandparents, and grandad as a child, she quickly responded to Dave and struck up a detailed conversation in which Dave revealed his intention to return this Artifact to the family. 
Zoe loaded up the family tree to determine whether great great uncle Fred might have any direct descendants  but  drew a blank. Zoe’s dad John Brown got on the phone to relatives who might have more information but uncle Fred had slipped beyond living memory. Further research into Fred’s life after the war showed that in 1921 he was lodging at the George and dragon in Ainderby Steeple and working as a beastman which seemed to be indicative of working with cattle. So it seems likely that he would have been working in the field half a mile from his lodgings, when the pin securing his war badge came loose. 
From here Fred’s story becomes more unclear. Zoe is continuing her search for uncle Fred’s final resting place, and can only hope that the loss of his war badge didn’t result in any unpleasant encounters for him without his proof of service. 

John Brown, Zoe and the rest of Uncle Fred’s family wish to express their gratitude to all of the individuals, clubs and organisations who have given their time, knowledge and resources to reuniting this with the family

[Coldstreamer]

Just been on national BBC news this morning . Good job

wonder if he lost it whilst wearing it at work ?

Edited 16 March , 2023 by Coldstreamer

[Dave1340]

1 hour ago, Coldstreamer said:

Just been on national BBC news this morning . Good job

wonder if he lost it whilst wearing it at work ?

Yes mate just seen it. Most definitely lost it working on the farm. We found out he was logging at the inn half a mile away 

its been a amazing week for sure

[Coldstreamer]

Normally I’m against a quest to return items to families ( usually it’s them that sell things)  but on this occasion it’s entirely plausible it was genuinely lost.

Now you have found this site I’m sure you’ll be back 

[Matlock1418]

On 05/03/2023 at 21:29, RussT said:

 

Dave, A bit of interpretation from this card for Zoe & family ...

The 8/3 [pw] pension awarded was representative of a 30% degree of disability for a Pension Class V soldier [Incl. a Private] on his transfer to the Army Z Reserve from 8/3/19 [incl.] - these matters were not mutually-exclusive.

This LLT link offers info on the Z Reserve https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists

Class Z Reserve

This was authorised by an Army Order of 3 December 1918. There were fears that Germany would not accept the terms of any peace treaty, and therefore the British Government decided it would be wise to be able to quickly recall trained men in the eventuality of the resumption of hostilities. Soldiers who were being demobilised, particularly those who had agreed to serve “for the duration”, were at first posted to Class Z. They returned to civilian life but with an obligation to return if called upon. The Z Reserve was abolished on 31 March 1920.

From the other image above [a pension ledger page] it looks like his award ended about 18/7/22 [see bottom right corner for Final Award]

M

[RussT]

8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Dave, A bit of interpretation from this card for Zoe & family ...

The 8/3 [pw] pension awarded was representative of a 30% degree of disability for a Pension Class V soldier [Incl. a Private] on his transfer to the Army Z Reserve from 8/3/19 [incl.] - these matters were not mutually-exclusive.

This LLT link offers info on the Z Reserve https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists

Class Z Reserve

This was authorised by an Army Order of 3 December 1918. There were fears that Germany would not accept the terms of any peace treaty, and therefore the British Government decided it would be wise to be able to quickly recall trained men in the eventuality of the resumption of hostilities. Soldiers who were being demobilised, particularly those who had agreed to serve “for the duration”, were at first posted to Class Z. They returned to civilian life but with an obligation to return if called upon. The Z Reserve was abolished on 31 March 1920.

Just so I can try to understand what you are trying to say here .(for my benefit at least if not possibly for Dave, Zoe + Family).

Are you suggesting Fred Brown was transferred to the Class Z Army Reserve ?

Regards

Russ

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, RussT said:

Are you suggesting Fred Brown was transferred to the Class Z Army Reserve ?

Yes - I believe the clue is in the reference Chelsea No. Z/Lab/3611

Many men were so transferred to the Z Reserve and were simultaneously paid a pension - there appears to have been an opinion that they were/would be fit enough to serve again in some capacity if the situation later required it - but of course we know it wasn't.  Or at least they were sufficiently fit so as to be up for medical reconsideration at a later date [If required].  The inference is commonly that they were either considered reasonably fit enough, or had a disability of a relatively minor type with an anticipated short duration/that matters were probably likely to improve over a relatively short period of time.

M

Edited 17 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[RussT]

Well, that surprises me given that he was discharged (hence his entitlement to his Silver War Badge) according to KR Paragraph 392 xvia - which means he was no longer physically fit for war service and was surplus to military requirements (having suffered impairment since entry into the service).

Would he have known that he had been transferred to Class Z? When this is the case, it is stated as such in a soldier's Service Record. Unfortunately, Fred's Service Record is lost - but have you seen an example where a man has been similarly discharged and has a Service Record stating that he is nevertheless transferred to Class Z? I've looked at 1000s of Service Records but I don't recall ever seeing that.

Regards

Russ

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, RussT said:

Well, that surprises me given that he was discharged (hence his entitlement to his Silver War Badge) according to KR Paragraph 392 xvia - which means he was no longer physically fit for war service and was surplus to military requirements (having suffered impairment since entry into the service).

Would he have known that he had been transferred to Class Z? When this is the case, it is stated as such in a soldier's Service Record. Unfortunately, Fred's Service Record is lost - but have you seen an example where a man has been similarly discharged and has a Service Record stating that he is nevertheless transferred to Class Z? I've looked at 1000s of Service Records but I don't recall ever seeing that.

It does seem unusual but my understanding is that the Z Chelsea No. indicates to Z Reserve. And yet a mistake at the MoP could have occurred so ???  Or I may have slipped up ???

I'm afraid I can't offer a similar case example with a SR.

@ss002d6252 may perhaps be able to assist.

M

[ss002d6252]

It's certainly not the first class z reserve man I've seen where there's a KR discharge as well.

It may well be that he was discharged to class z and as part of the discharge, as he was free to do do, he was able to declare any medical issues. The KR discharge may have followed from the medical.

I'd need to have a read through the process but the man was definitely aware of his class z discharge.

Craig

[RussT]

Looking at the LLT it has this to say under the Section "Demobilisation and Discharge"

Which states that a man who was permanently discharged was not transferred to Class Z.

And under the Section "Silver War Badge", it states this for KR is 392 (xvi) - (as per Fred Brown)

So released (discharged) on account of being permanently physically unfit.

So this seems to indicate that a man so discharged was not transferred to Class Z - if the interpretation of "discharged on account of being permanently unfit is the same as being permanently discharged !!

Interestingly though, the wording of Para 392 (xvi) does not actually use the wording "permanently unfit" - it reads as I quoted above.

So on the face of it it's all a bit ambiguous - I would be interested to know what the actual/legal situation was - perhaps best done on a separate thread. I understood that a man was given some form of discharge certificate that included setting out any future potential service obligation.

Regards

Russ

 

[RaySearching]

It may be that the Z  Chelsea number in question is in fact a 2 and has been mistaken for a z  and has nothing to do with army reserves

look at the second line in other actions 19/1/Z1   (19/1/21)  then compare it with the chelsea number at the top of the form

 

Ray

[ss002d6252]

12 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

It may be that the Z  Chelsea number in question is in fact a 2 and has been mistaken for a z  and has nothing to do with army reserves

look at the second line in other actions 19/1/Z1   (19/1/21)  then compare it with the chelsea number at the top of the form

 

Ray

I'm confident it's a Class Z reference number (it's also on the pension card). No other MoP reference number is anything like the same format.

Z / unit reference / number of claim

Z / L(abour Corps) / 3611

Craig

[Matlock1418]

Thanks for your quick response Craig.

13 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

It may well be that he was discharged to class z and as part of the discharge, as he was free to do do, he was able to declare any medical issues.

As did many men - on Army Form Z. 22, Statement as to Disability [I have an example clearly headed with the Chelsea No for a subsequently unsuccessful disability pension claim in the style Z/Unit/Claim No. - this annotation looks contemporary with the rest of the form completion which is stamped prior to actual transfer date] - in fact all men had to either make a claim on this numbered Z form or to sign it to say they did not wish to claim prior to transfer to the Class Z Reserve.

13 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The KR discharge may have followed from the medical.

This was my [unrecorded] thought when I posted above.

Unfortunately we don't have a SR and I can't access the SWB List so cannot see when it was dated etc.

M

[Allan1892]

11 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I can't access the SWB List so cannot see when it was dated etc.

Dated 3 October 1919 (courtesy of Ancestry)

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I can't access the SWB List so cannot see when it was dated etc.

Dated 3 October 1919 (courtesy of Ancestry)

Thanks - So it seems there was plenty of time for the medical wheels to have ground onwards to a SWB after a seemingly possible 7.3.19 transfer to the Z Reserve [recorded as "discharge" on the SWB Roll].

M

Edited 18 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
list > roll

[ss002d6252]

I'm up in sunny Edinburgh this weekend but if I remember when I get I'll see if I have any records that may assist.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

Without intending to hijack this thread, but may help to perhaps usefully clarify things, it is interesting that ...

• WHYTE, 506962, LC [also previously 351301, Royal Scots]
• BITMEAD, 510914, LC [also previously 3967, London Regt]
• CAREY, 358760, LC [possibly previously 42008/42068, 20940, 2940 (NC)]
• EVERITT, 359125, LC [also previously 2496, 55780, Lincolnshire Yeomanry]
• HILL, 360300, LC [also previously 320633, 243487, 1342, Glamorgan Yeomanry]

... all these men, named above here, have Z/Lab [Chelsea No] references on pension index cards.

Perhaps they also have SRs which could perhaps assist ?? [Unfortunately I don't have access to SR]

M

Edited 18 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit