Silver discharge badge found

[Dave1340]

Hi all. Wondering if you can help me. I’m a metal detectorist. I found a love sliver discharge badge today on a dig. The number on back is B312840 and I found bit of info his name was Fred brown. I would like to trace any family left to give the medal to them and any info of his history would be great. 
thank you 

dave 

[RussT]

Strictly - it was a Silver War Badge

He ended up with an Agricultural Company of the Labour Corps with whom he was discharged due to sickness on 07/03/1919.

Previously he was a 4th Bn Yorkshire Regiment man, having enlisted with them on 03/08/1915.

He was entitled to the Victory and British War Medal having served overseas with the Yorks - he evidently did not go overseas before 1916.

He was transferred to the Labour Corps on 12/01/1918, probably due to some condition that no longer left him fit enough for the Infantry.

His Yorkshire Regiment number of 201688 and his enlistment date of mid 1915 is indicative of him likely being from the Yorkshire area.

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

Here are a couple of Pension Cards giving addresses which should help in tracking down family:

 

[chaz]

Fred Brown, 507190 Labour Corps. badge awarded for sickness.  born 1876

 

Address, Johnsons Yard, Norby, Thirsk. the address still is current on Google maps

there is a Ancestry tree which may help

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/162358050/person/362406327862/facts?_phsrc=nnd10086&_phstart=successSource

[Dave1340]

Omg thank you very much. I found it in Ainderby steeple.

North Yorkshire 

can’t thank you all for this I’ll keep you posted how I get on trying to find any family as I think it’s best go back to them. 
regards dave 

[RussT]

2 minutes ago, Dave1340 said:

I think it’s best go back to them. 

Would be good if you could as it sounds like it was lost (rather than sold).

Russ

[RussT]

This information is posted just for completeness in order to aid anyone wanting to research further his military history.

It can be seen from the first Pension Card that I posted above that there are two further numbers viz. 4830 & 235199. Numbers written like that on these Cards are indicative of previous Service Numbers - although in this case there is no ,mention as to which Regiment or Corps they belong.

Searching on those numbers reveals some Medical Admission & Discharge Records for his treatment for leg wounds at the 51st Field Ambulance and then at the 18th General Hospital (admitted 19/04/1917) - this record shown below.

It's evidently the same Fred Brown with a given age of 41 which fits his Date of Birth from the Pension Card. These medical records tell us he was serving with the 7th Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment at the time.

The number 235199 is also a 4th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment number and presumably the number 4830 is the appropriate 4th Battalion number prior to the 1917 TF re-numbering scheme.

So first prize goes to anyone who can unravel how, when and why his Yorkshire Regiment numbers were allotted to him. It seems he had the numbers 4830, 235199 and 201688 before ending up with the Labour Corps number 507190.

Quite a mystery - I don't think I have come across a man before who has had 2 different 6-digit TF numbers allotted from the same Battalion of a given Regiment.

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

With respect to the numbering query above, we can now conclude that the given 4-digit number is actually his pre 1917 TF number of his later 6-digit number 201688 (which appears on his Labour Corps medal roll).

4th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment medal rolls show that:

4829 became 201687

4839 became 201691

Meaning that his 4830 number naturally became 201688.

So we are left with his number 235199 that appear on his Medical Records and also on his Pension Index Card.

Why did he have that number?

Russ

 

 

 

[kenf48]

10 hours ago, RussT said:

Why did he have that number?

A possible explanation is that he was at some point posted to the 4th Bn York and Lancaster, who confusingly had the same number sequence in the renumbering as the 4th Yorkshire Regt. The series appears to be in the block issued at the IBD.

See http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

This would not show on the Medal Roll as it is not relevant to the issue of the medals.A time line may look like - enlisted with 4380; entered theatre with 201688 Yorkshire Regiment; posted to Y & L  235199 (?); posted to Labour Corps 507190

No time to work it through now but will take a look later.

[RussT]

Of course nearly all TF Infantry Regiments adopted the same 6-digit re-number blocks - so there are plenty of possibilities of a man having the number 235199.

But it can't have been with the York and Lancaster Regiment as the number 235199 was allotted to Henry Memmott - see image.

There is a gap in the Yorkshire Regiment Medal Rolls for a man with the number 235199 (see image). And that Roll interestingly shows that a number of men served with the 7th Bn after the 4th, noting that the 7th Bn Yorks is stated on his Medical Record as I posted earlier.

I agree that, on the face of it, the number 235199 does not need to be on his Medal Roll - and of course the Labour Corps Rolls invariably do not record a man's intermediate unit/numbers as there was no need, as you say, to do so for medal issuing purposes.

We'll need to think a bit more methinks !!

Regards

Russ

 

[Dave1340]

Wow thank you all very much. I found his family in 1900’s he lived with his brother and sister in law at that address and was single but his brother had 3 kids so hopefully the generation carried on. 
I’ve been detecting for few years and this is awesome as when I find old coins. Roman or hammerd never know who’s it was. Can’t thank you all enough and will try to reunite the medal with any remaining family. 
attached is the medal. 
thanks again 

dave 

[BillyH]

He may not have any direct family, he was still single in 1919, at the age of 43.

BillyH.

[Jim Strawbridge]

If Fred died without issue then no direct descendants. His brother, Richard, continued on the family line and his family tree is recorded on Ancestry. His great-grandaughter, Amanda Sleights, is still active there as recent as two days ago. Fred would have been her great-granduncle if such a title exists. Amanda can be contacted from the family tree.

[Dave1340]

I’ve found them a great great  niece Zoe brown who’s grandad was Lewis James brown who was Fred’s nephew. I’m totally excited that I’ve found someone that I can return the badge back to the family. Her dad is going chat to his sister who knows all the history of there family

I can’t thank you all enough for all your great input as without all your help I’ll be lost so big big thanks lads 

kind regards dave

 

[RussT]

That's great news Dave, well done.

In respect to his service numbers - it remains quite a challenge - here are some thoughts.

One thing I can confirm is that the enlistment date on his Silver War Badge Card/Roll of 03/08/1915 is definitely his enlistment date into the 4th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment TF when he was allotted his first service number of 4830. Specifically he would have been posted immediately to the 3/4th Battalion, with whom he no doubt did his training before being posted overseas.

We can deduce his number/enlistment date from records of men with similar numbers:

4823 enlisted on 03/08/1915

4837 enlisted on 07/08/1915

4850 enlisted on 09/08/1915

So his number of 4830 being allotted on 03/08/1915 fits this pattern. His 6-digit number of 201688 was his 1917 TF 4th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment re-number, as reported in a previous post.

As mentioned earlier, the mystery surrounds why he apparently had a further 4th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment number of 235199, which appears on his Pension Index Card and also on two Medical Admission Registers dated mid April 1917.

As Ken mentioned, this number might be a TF number from different Regiment/Corp to whom he was transferred before his final transfer to the Labour Corps. But that explanation would need to accept that the mention of him being in the Yorkshire Regiment (7th Battalion) on the Medical Records at the time is an error. Errors do appear on those Medical Records but that explanation sounds a bit too convenient to me especially when it is also noted that (i) no other Yorkshire Regiment man had that number and (ii) other men with similar 23519x and 23520x numbers also saw service with the 7th Battalion.

One way a man might get two different numbers in the same Battalion of the same Regiment is by first joining them (first number), being transferred to another Regiment/Corps e.g. a Training Reserve Battalion (a different, second, number) and then coincidentally being transferred back to his original Battalion/Regiment for active service once his training was completed (a third number, as strictly he would not be permitted to have his old number back). However, whilst a possibility it seems a bit long-winded and implausible for Fred.

I have looked at all the service records I could find for men with similar 23519x service numbers and I didn't spot one which had an earlier 6-digit number like Fred - so Fred looks to be an exception in this regard within this small range of numbers.

What I did spot, which is apparent from the relevant Medal Roll I posted earlier, is that the men with these 6-digit 23519x numbers had a seemingly random array of previous (4th Battalion) 4-digit Yorkshire Regiment numbers, which themselves correlate with a wide range of enlistment dates. The (incomplete) number list is as follows:

235190 was previously 9874

235191 was previously 6947

235192 was previously 6291

235195 was previously 5589

235196 was previously 6967

235197 was previously 5046

235198 was previously 3284 (seemingly a 5th Battalion number according to the Medal Roll)

235199 was previously 4830/201688 if this is indeed Fred Brown's other 6-digit number.

What is rather unusual (although not unique I think) is that these 6-digit numbers have not been allotted in the order of serving seniority. It is common and quite normal for TF men to be numerically re-ordered commensurate with their original numbers - meaning that men were re-numbered according to their enlistment date with the lowest number going to the man who had the earliest enlistment date (and hence was that man still serving who had the lowest original number when the re-numbering took place in early 1917).

Surviving service records for these men indicate they were sent overseas on 26/01/1917 and shortly thereafter received these 6-digit 23519x (re-)numbers as per normal with regards to TF re-numbering generally.

I can only conclude that Fred had already been re-numbered as 201688 (which fits exactly into the number pattern with his original number of 4830) but who was nevertheless (incorrectly) re-numbered again to 235199 by virtue of him being in a draft of men who were seemingly re-numbered in a random way with respect to their original numbers.

The best I can come up with - it will probably remain a mystery unless someone else can can come up with an hypothesis.

Regards

Russ

 

 

 

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, RussT said:

I can only conclude that Fred had already been re-numbered as 201688 (which fits exactly into the number pattern with his original number of 4830) but who was nevertheless (incorrectly) re-numbered again to 235199 by virtue of him being in a draft of men who were seemingly re-numbered in a random way with respect to their original numbers.

Acknowledging your earlier comments, the draft of these TF soldiers appears to have embarked on the 25th February 1917. They were transferred under the auspices of A.O.204/1916 to the 7th Bn at Etaples on the 17 March 1917.  The war diary notes a draft of 60 other ranks arriving on the 18th.

Compulsory transfers under A.O. 204 often meant a change in number, but as you say why that should be in the same TF series is a bit of a mystery.  We know record offices issued blocks of numbers to the IBD in France for allocation but there is no record of this number change on the transfer in any of the records I have seen. This example serves to illustrate

Image from FMP

If we then look at the medal roll it appears these 60 men, most of whom had previously served with the BEF  they jumped from a four digit TF number to the six digit number on posting to the 7th Battalion.  In other words there was no 201*** number, but the number series was 235210 - 235629 i.e. the draft of 60 on the 18th March 1917.  I suspect our man was in the draft of 94 recorded on the 21st March.

Interesting though this is I think we should acknowledge the original query has been resolved and wish @Dave1340 good luck with reuniting the badge with a family member.

When the badge was issued there was a strict warning that no duplicates of the badge or the certificate would be issued.  One often sees appeals for lost badges in the classified columns of local newspapers. I can't find this one though.  Having watched and enjoyed "Detectorists" I know they like to keep their secrets  but it might be worthwhile to know where this one was lost/found.

 

 

 

 

[Interested]

Dave,

Well done on finding a surviving relative.  Great result.

[Dave1340]

Just a update 

bbc look north are meeting us on Monday and doing a report and we will be handing the badge over to Fred’s great great niece Zoe and her dad which is Fred’s great nephew I think ***. But it’s all great. If it’s ok I would like to mention your forum and the help you all gave me and so fast 

thanks again. Will update you when it’s going on air

kind regards 

dave 

gave badge a clean 

[RussT]

That's great news and a very fitting event.

It would be nice if you get the opportunity to mention the team effort here on the Great War Forum in providing assistance as to the Badge's owner.

If you can let us know when it's planned for broadcast and/or provide a later link to any article, that would be good.

Regards

Russ

 

[Dave1340]

Will do Russ on both 

[Dave1340]

His great great niece is having difficulty finding Fred’s death date or place of rest. Which would be a help on interview to put a age to him 

[Interested]

Not that I can help, but having survived the war his final resting place might be near where he is on the 1921 census (which I don't have access to).

Good luck with the search, Monday deadline...  

[Allan1892]

Looking at his entries in various Census returns, I find that his parents were Richard and Mary Ann. As a young boy he appears in the Census as Fredy / Freddy ages recorded suggest a birth year of 1878. A search of civil birth registrations of Fredy / Freddy / Fred / Frederick came up with a birth registered in the Northallerton District for the 4th Quarter 1877. Looking at the GRO, the entry is Fredy Brown and gives his mother's maiden name of THORPE. This ties in with the information recorded in Zoe Brown's family tree on Ancestry. Further searches brought up a baptism for Freddy Brown on the 18th October 1877, entry shows that his father was Richard (a Platelayer) and his mother was Mary Ann. They resided in Romanby. (image courtesy of Find My Past)

I have failed to find him in the 1921 Census, likewise in the 1939 Register. There are many deaths recorded for a Fred / Frederick Brown but I can't pin one down to the man in question.

[Dave1340]

Thank you Allan that’s a big help and all the rest. I have limited access to all that stuff but will pass on this to Zoe maybe she might have a go now. His birthday great help 👍👍👍

[Dave1340]

Zoe told me this. 
That’s the same blank as I’m drawing. But you can let the forum know that I’ve found him in the 1921 census, boarding at an inn and working as a beastman (cattle)

And if I find anymore medals/ badges I know where to come.  You all been ace can’t thank you enough