34 Division but what unit? Possibly Suffolk?

[Raster Scanning]

 

This picture is captioned Pte Priest.

I see he is 34th Division and I think the badge may be Suffolk making him 11th Battalion? 

Is that a MM ribbon or a 14/15 Star? There appears to be 2 OS Service stripes. All rather confusing to my eyes. Appreciate someone else's thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

 

[Michelle Young]

I’d say Suffolk Regiment. 

[Michelle Young]

There’s 6 MIC to men named Priest, but one is 1st Btn.

[Raster Scanning]

21 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

There’s 6 MIC to men named Priest, but one is 1st Btn.

Thanks Michelle

and non were recipients of the MM so perhaps it is a 14/15 Star ribbon.

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

...Is that a MM ribbon or a 14/15 Star? There appears to be 2 OS Service stripes. All rather confusing to my eyes. Appreciate someone else's thoughts.

 

It is the ribbon of the British War Medal, so can't date any earlier than mid-1919.

[mancpal]

Agree with BWM. I too think he 2 overseas chevrons. What is the chequered (battle?) patch I wonder?

Simon

Edited 25 February , 2023 by mancpal
Missed most of it out first time!

[max7474]

errr - see post 1 it's the 34th Division patch..........

odd to see a BWM ribbon on its own.  I suspect it is not that ribbon.  

[mancpal]

Errrr (A rude start to a post, I am not a child), it is the BWM ribbon, established prior to the victory medal so not unique in appearing on a tunic in that order I wouldn’t imagine. With only 2 chevrons and an earliest possible photographic date of 1919 it is no surprise he doesn’t have a star ribbon. 
Max, please suggest what ribbon it is then? Clearly I know nothing about divisional patches, apparently equalled by your knowledge of ribbons.

Simon

 

[kenf48]

9 minutes ago, max7474 said:

 

odd to see a BWM ribbon on its own.  I suspect it is not that ribbon.  

I don’t do uniforms,or medals but, British War Medal ribbon  approved April 1919.

First 250 miles of ribbon issued 4 August 1919

Preliminary issue Victory Medal riband announced December 24 1919

Potentially a couple of months at least with just the one ribbon.

[FROGSMILE]

On 25/02/2023 at 16:18, Raster Scanning said:

This picture is captioned Pte Priest.

I see he is 34th Division and I think the badge may be Suffolk making him 11th Battalion? 

Is that a MM ribbon or a 14/15 Star? There appears to be 2 OS Service stripes. All rather confusing to my eyes. Appreciate someone else's thoughts.

 

Thanks

Yes you’re quite right Raster, it is the 34th Infantry Division cloth arm badge.  Also, at the end of the war when the occupation Army was being established the Rhine Area (bridgehead) was allocated as the British Army sector and a newly established Eastern Division took over all the 34th Division vehicles and most other equipment and also adopted their sign. 

 

[Raster Scanning]

Thanks all for your contributions. 

I learned something new about the issue of the BWM. Could the lack of a 14/15 star medal ribbon indicate he did not serve until after 1915?

[Raster Scanning]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes you’re quite right Raster, it is the 34th Infantry Division cloth arm badge.  Also, at the end of the war when the occupation Army was being established the Rhine Area (bridgehead) was allocated as the British Army sector and a newly established Eastern Division took over all the 34th Division vehicles and most other equipment and also adopted their sign. 

Thanks for this. Yes I have many pictures of the Bedfords (51st 52nd and 53rd Battalions) wearing this patch as part of the Army of Occupation. Indeed originally I thought this mans cap badge was a Bedfordshire one. 

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

Thanks all for your contributions. 

I learned something new about the issue of the BWM. Could the lack of a 14/15 star medal ribbon indicate he did not serve until after 1915?

Yes that’s right.

He looks quite young so although he served in the field before the Armistice he did not serve in a theatre of war before 31 December 1915.  The 14-15 Star was authorised in November 1918.

It was noted those serving were prioritised for the issue of the ribbon (s). There were delays due to the privations of the wartime economy.
 Army of Occupation seems a good call.
 

 Possibly one of the 18 year old cohort from April 1918(?) Don’t know just a thought.

 

 

[tullybrone]

Weren‘t 11th Suffolk Regiment transferred out of 34 Division in May 1918?

If so then how can this man have the BWM ribbon (issued 1919) while wearing the 34 Division “sign”.
 

Wartime 34 Division was reconstituted as Eastern Division whilst in BAOR from March 1919 but I’m not aware of the Order of the Battle of Eastern Division so can’t say if it included a Suffolk Regiment Battalion.

 

Steve

[Raster Scanning]

4 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Weren‘t 11th Suffolk Regiment transferred out of 34 Division in May 1918?

If so then how can this man have the BWM ribbon (issued 1919) while wearing the 34 Division “sign”.
 

Wartime 34 Division was reconstituted as Eastern Division whilst in BAOR from March 1919 but I’m not aware of the Order of the Battle of Eastern Division so can’t say if it included a Suffolk Regiment Battalion.

 

Steve

Hi Steve, my question too. Perhaps he is not Suffolk, but I thought it was quite likely.

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Weren‘t 11th Suffolk Regiment transferred out of 34 Division in May 1918?

If so then how can this man have the BWM ribbon (issued 1919) while wearing the 34 Division “sign”.
 

Wartime 34 Division was reconstituted as Eastern Division whilst in BAOR from March 1919 but I’m not aware of the Order of the Battle of Eastern Division so can’t say if it included a Suffolk Regiment Battalion.

 

Steve

There’s no mention of any Suffolk Regiment battalion throughout the division’s existence:

Eastern Division
Formed March 1919 from 34th Division. Disbanded June-July 1919 in Germany.

101st Infantry Brigade (remained to Jun 1919)

10th (S) Bn Lincolnshire Regiment remained to Jun 1919

2nd Bn Loyal North Lancashire Regiment remained to May 1919

1/4th Bn Royal Sussex Regiment remained to Jul 1919

10th (S) Bn Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) joined Mar 1919; left Jun 1919.

102nd Infantry Brigade (remained to Jul 1919)

7th (S) Bn Cheshire Regiment remained to Jul 1919

25th (S) Bn Northumberland Fusiliers remained to Apr 1919

51st (S) Bn Bedfordshire Regiment joined Mar 1919; left Jul 1919

52nd (S) Bn Bedfordshire Regiment joined Mar 1919(?);28 left Jul 1919

53rd (S) Bn Bedfordshire Regiment joined Apr 1919; left Jul 1919.

103rd Infantry Brigade (remained to Jul 1919)

51st (S) Bn Royal Sussex Regiment joined Apr 1919; left Jul 1919

52nd (S) Bn Royal Sussex Regiment joined May 1919; left Jul 1919

53rd (S) Bn Royal Sussex Regiment joined Feb 1919; left Jul 1919.

Edited 26 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Chief_Chum]

He is a member of the 1/4th Battalion, Suffolk Regiment, in the Eastern Division (formerly the 34th Division) in the original Rhine Army, photographed in August 1919 when they all received their British War Medal ribbons, but before the Victory Medal was instituted.

[Raster Scanning]

That is great, thank you.

[KENDO]

Hi all,

34 Division was renamed Eastern Division on 15 March 1919 and formed  with Lancashire Division (ex 32 Division), X Corps, British Army of the Rhine.

Ken

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, Chief_Chum said:

He is a member of the 1/4th Battalion, Suffolk Regiment, in the Eastern Division (formerly the 34th Division) in the original Rhine Army, photographed in August 1919 when they all received their British War Medal ribbons, but before the Victory Medal was instituted.

Perhaps there was an error in the ORBAT that I quoted above from a researcher of the original BAOR history, and 1/4th Royal Sussex was wrong and should’ve been 1/4th Suffolk?  It seems an uncanny coincidence else.

Edited 2 April by FROGSMILE

[mark holden]

There is some conjecture that the 34th Division patch  may  have been introduced very late in 1918 or into 1919 during the Army of Occupation. I have a 34th Division jacket to a Gunner RFA who served in Cologne in 1919 his patches are quite elaborately made and probably beyond the skills or patience of the Regimental tailor. The sign is made in a number of variations including on a metal square affixed to the jacket by means of 4 fold over tabs. It also appears on helmets I have seen over the years.

[Chef_Hendrix]

On 02/04/2024 at 13:02, FROGSMILE said:

Perhaps there was an error in the ORBAT that I quoted above from a researcher of the original BAOR history, and 1/4th Royal Sussex was wrong and should’ve been 1/4th Suffolk?  It seems an uncanny coincidence else.

Many of the original battalions left in 1918, including the 11th Suffolks, the Tyneside Scottish and 15th and 16th Royal Scots amongst others. I don't know who the cap badge is in the picture, but unlikely to be the 11th Suffolks as they left before the divisional badge was introduced. 

 

On 02/04/2024 at 14:20, mark holden said:

There is some conjecture that the 34th Division patch  may  have been introduced very late in 1918 or into 1919 during the Army of Occupation. I have a 34th Division jacket to a Gunner RFA who served in Cologne in 1919 his patches are quite elaborately made and probably beyond the skills or patience of the Regimental tailor. The sign is made in a number of variations including on a metal square affixed to the jacket by means of 4 fold over tabs. It also appears on helmets I have seen over the years.

I've got an extract from one of the war diaries and I think from memory it was 1st July 1918 that it was introduced.

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, Chef_Hendrix said:

Many of the original battalions left in 1918, including the 11th Suffolks, the Tyneside Scottish and 15th and 16th Royal Scots amongst others. I don't know who the cap badge is in the picture, but unlikely to be the 11th Suffolks as they left before the divisional badge was introduced. 

 

I've got an extract from one of the war diaries and I think from memory it was 1st July 1918 that it was introduced.

I’m just trying to ascertain how accurate the ORBAT that I copied in is as it’s a part of a very scholarly piece of work by a renowned historian of military organisations.  In other words was 1/4th Suffolks ever a part of the Division, or was it simply a misinterpretation, or typographical error that led to it being shown as 1/4th Royal Sussex Regiment?

I’m sure that you must be right about the cloth arm badge being introduced at that time, but to be clear the painted version of the sign was already all over the 34th Division Transport when it was handed over to Eastern Division, and had been in use in France for some time.  The cloth followed the paint and not the other way around.

Edited 4 April by FROGSMILE

[Chef_Hendrix]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m just trying to ascertain how accurate the ORBAT that I copied in is as it’s a part of a very scholarly piece of work by a renowned historian of military organisations.  In other words was 1/4th Suffolks ever a part of the Division, or was it simply a misinterpretation, or typographical error that led to it being shown as 1/4th Royal Sussex Regiment?

I’m sure that you must be right about the cloth arm badge being introduced at that time, but to be clear the painted version of the sign was already all over the 34th Division Transport when it was handed over to Eastern Division, and had been in use in France for some time.  The cloth followed the paint and not the other way around.

 

I'm afraid my knowledge of the 34th only really extends to the early/middle part of 1918 as that's when the Battalions (16th RS and 21st NF) of my GGF and his cousin left/were disbanded and where my own amateur research ended. But looking at the LLT it is stated that it was the 1/4 Royal Sussex Regiment who were with the 34th Division from June 1918 with no mention of another Suffolk battalion joining.

I focused on your comment that there was no mention of the Suffolks in the Divisions history, I was thinking the 34th, but I now, having re-read your comment believe you were actually talking about the Eastern Division.

Curiosity got the better of me and I had a look at some of the War Diaries.

The Royal Sussex WD has them arriving at Etaples on 28 June 1918 before some rest and training and onward travel to join the 101st Brigade, 34th Division. Their diary is a bit sparse but they are in Germany in 1919.

The 101st Brigade WD has the 4th Royal Sussex arriving on the evening of the 29th June and they are mentioned as coming under their command (and thus 34th Division) on the 30th June along with the 2/4 Queens (R.W. Surrey), 2nd L.N. Lancs and 2/4 Somerset L.I. 

The 101st WD has the Royal Sussex remaining with them through into 1919 and into Germany.

Yes, I was aware that the badge had been in use on vehicles and such, their are a few pictures on IWM collection with the chequered badge on trucks and one showing a pop up library (with 11 Suffolks). The cloth badge appears to have been introduced once the 34th had been reorganised in the middle of 1918. I do have the excerpt from the diary saved somewhere and I will have a look for it if anyone is interested, but my written notes have the date I mentioned earlier.

So, in summary! The orbat you posted is correct in that it was the 4th Royal Sussex who were with the Eastern Division, and I could find no mention of another Suffolk Regiment other than that the 11ths who had been with the Division when it was previously known as the 34th, and who had left in 1918.

 

 

Edited 5 April by Chef_Hendrix

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Chef_Hendrix said:

 

I'm afraid my knowledge of the 34th only really extends to the early/middle part of 1918 as that's when the Battalions (16th RS and 21st NF) of my GGF and his cousin left/were disbanded and where my own amateur research ended. But looking at the LLT it is stated that it was the 1/4 Royal Sussex Regiment who were with the 34th Division from June 1918 with no mention of another Suffolk battalion joining.

I focused on your comment that there was no mention of the Suffolks in the Divisions history, I was thinking the 34th, but I now, having re-read your comment believe you were actually talking about the Eastern Division.

Curiosity got the better of me and I had a look at some of the War Diaries.

The Royal Sussex WD has them arriving at Etaples on 28 June 1918 before some rest and training and onward travel to join the 101st Brigade, 34th Division. Their diary is a bit sparse but they are in Germany in 1919.

The 101st Brigade WD has the 4th Royal Sussex arriving on the evening of the 29th June and they are mentioned as coming under their command (and thus 34th Division) on the 30th June along with the 2/4 Queens (R.W. Surrey), 2nd L.N. Lancs and 2/4 Somerset L.I. 

The 101st WD has the Royal Sussex remaining with them through into 1919 and into Germany.

Yes, I was aware that the badge had been in use on vehicles and such, their are a few pictures on IWM collection with the chequered badge on trucks and one showing a pop up library (with 11 Suffolks). The cloth badge appears to have been introduced once the 34th had been reorganised in the middle of 1918. I do have the excerpt from the diary saved somewhere and I will have a look for it if anyone is interested, but my written notes have the date I mentioned earlier.

So, in summary! The orbat you posted is correct in that it was the 4th Royal Sussex who were with the Eastern Division, and I could find no mention of another Suffolk Regiment other than that the 11ths who had been with the Division when it was previously known as the 34th, and who had left in 1918.

 

 

Thank you.  I really appreciate you taking the time to provide such a thorough, informative answer.

Edited 5 April by FROGSMILE