Sergeant Robert Downie VC MM, 11213, 2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers - 1916

[Ivor Anderson]

Sergeant Robert Downie 11213 won his VC for the attack on the German gun pits on the Transloy Ridges near Lesboeufs on 23rd October 1916. Many died in the machine gun fire and hand-to-hand trench fighting. Most of the officers were killed or wounded in the attack and Sergeant Robert Downie 11213 (from Springburn, Glasgow) rallied the men and cried 'Come on the Dubs'. He won the Victoria Cross for his actions that day. His citation was in the London Gazette of 25th November 1916:

For most conspicuous bravery and devotion to duty in attack. When most of the officers had become casualties, this non-commissioned officer, utterly regardless of personal danger, moved about under heavy fire and reorganised the attack, which had been temporarily checked. At the critical moment he rushed forward alone, shouting, ‘Come on the Dubs’. This stirring appeal met with immediate response and the line rushed forward at his call. Sergeant Downie accounted for several of the enemy and in addition, captured a machine gun, killing the team. 

He received his V.C. from King George V at Sandringham on 8th January 1917. So many men died that day that Robert Downie never spoke about it. He only said that 'Every man in the Battalion won the VC that day'. Downie died in Glasgow in 1968. He worked as a groundsman for Celtic Football Club after the War. Two of his brothers, David & Richard, were killed in France in WW1. His parents were from Laurencetown, Co. Down.

Sergeant Downie also won the MM. This thread will focus on trying to find out what his MM was awarded for.  

It was listed in the LG of 11 Nov 1916, a gazette of retrospective awards: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29819/supplement/10921   

Robert Downie wearing his VC & MM (& trio) at the London Cenotaph in Sept 1934 (Victoria Cross Heroes of WW1, by Robert Hamilton, p.180):

Edited 13 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Ivor Anderson]

Robert Downie's MIC (Ancestry) refers to both his VC & MM:

The 2nd RDF war diary may shed some light: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352152          or 10th Infantry Bde, 4th Div or VIII Corps?

Edited 13 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Ivor Anderson]

   Robert Downie's MM Card from TNA. Bate & Williamson report that the rear of this card is additionally annotated:

"WORK 15/47, 68/D/204, RC particulars regarding the award of the MM required from Mr J Taylor, City Chambers, Glasgow". What does that mean?

Edited 13 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

   Robert Downie's MM Card from TNA. Bate & Williamson report that the rear of this card is additionally annotated:

"WORK 15/47, 68/D/204, RC particulars regarding the award of the MM required from Mr J Taylor, City Chambers, Glasgow". What does that mean?

I imagine that the City of Glasgow intended to honour Robert Downie, perhaps with the Freedom of the City or some other honour established for distinguished soldiers from the city, and requested the details of the MM action (citation, as far as was known) in order to write up a tribute as part of the formal presentation ceremony.  

Edited 13 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks Frogsmile, That sounds very likely.   

https://glesgakeelie.proboards.com/thread/3042/robert-downie-vc

"Downie was presented with his Victoria Cross by the King at York Cottage, Sandringham, Norfolk on January 8th 1917. Several days prior to his medal presentation Robert was to be given a public reception at Springburn Town Hall. Later that evening he was presented with a gold watch from his former school along with a purse containing treasury notes at a special reception held by the United Irish League."
 

https://www.firstworldwarglasgow.co.uk/index.aspx?articleid=11514

"He had already suffered in a gas attack and had been awarded the Military Medal when he showed the outstanding courage that earned him the VC on 23 October, 1916, the 115th day of the First Battle of the Somme."

Edited 13 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

This is the photograph of Downey which was used by "I Was There" magazine to illustrate a short "Then & Now" feature on him on page 785 of issue 230.n

Edited 13 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

This is the photograph of Downey which was used by "I Was There" magazine to illustrate a short "Then & Now" feature on him on page 785 of issue 230.n

A fantastically brave man from a fine Regiment that, contrary to its position in the line of precedence of the infantry, was one of the oldest in terms of its long and continuous existence as a fighting unit.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

Yes indeed. Thanks Frogsmile. My GGF's brother, Cpl William J. Sproule, died in the attack on the dugouts in which Robert Downey won the VC.

The October 1916 actions, inc. the 23rd are discussed here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/228786-2nd-battalion-rdf-october-1916/#comment-2823997

My great uncle was one of 36 listed as 'missing in action' on the 23rd October 1916 - one of those (mysteriously, as discussed) named on the Menin Gate..

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Newspaper reports of the time will understandably have focused on Robert Downie's VC, as his retrospective MM award was only listed in the LG 2 weeks before his VC.

His MM could have been for any number of actions in 1915 to early 1916. I will search the WD for mentions/clues.

The 2nd RDF had a very eventful war from August 1914: https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=6082

Downie had joined up in 1912. He went to France with the 2nd RDF in 1914 as a private (1914 star roll). He later served with the 6th RDF (Medal roll, Ancestry):

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Ivor Anderson]

Up until March 1915 casualties are listed each month by name & number. The only awards I can find for 1915 are these in Feb 1915:

These were listed in the LG of 18th Feb. 1915, so recommended earlier: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29074/supplement/1697

Inc. MC to CSM Edward Henderson 10819.

The 2nd RDF suffered heavy casualties during an attack on St. Julien, on 25th April 1915.

"On May 24th, 1915, around 2.45am, the Germans launched a poison gas attack. The Battalion strength was 666 men. By 9.30 pm, only one officer and 20 other ranks ‘retired’ to headquarters – 645 men were shelled, gassed, or driven insane by the poison. Many of the ‘survivors’ died slowly in the following years."

Robert Downey must have survived both these attacks. His MM may have been a retrospective award for one of these actions.

From the lengthy WD account of 24 May 1915 by Capt Thomas V Linky:

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Up until March 1915 casualties are listed each month by name & number. The only awards I can find for 1915 are these in Feb 1915:

These were listed in the LG of 18th Feb. 1915, so recommended earlier: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29074/supplement/1697

Inc. MC to CSM Edward Henderson 10819.

The 2nd RDF suffered heavy casualties during an attack on St. Julien, on 25th April 1915.

"On May 24th, 1915, around 2.45am, the Germans launched a poison gas attack. The Battalion strength was 666 men. By 9.30 pm, only one officer and 20 other ranks ‘retired’ to headquarters – 645 men were shelled, gassed, or driven insane by the poison. Many of the ‘survivors’ died slowly in the following years."

Robert Downey must have survived both these attacks. His MM may have been a retrospective award for one of these actions.

From the lengthy WD account of 24 May 1915 by Capt Thomas V Linky:

Deeply moving accounts of sheer grit and defiance.  There must have been a variety of local print news accounts about Robert Downie, is nothing at all mentioned about the circumstances pertaining to his MM?  Are none of his family still alive to tell of his more intimately conveyed experiences?

Edited 14 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There must have been a variety of local print news accounts about Robert Downie, is nothing at all mentioned about the circumstances pertaining to his MM?  Are none of his family still alive to tell of his more intimately conveyed experiences?

I imagine the timing of his VC award overshadowed his MM. His MM was a retrospective award, so hard to pinpoint. One website linked further up states:

"Downie was to be wounded five times and also gassed before leaving the Army in March 1919 and settling down with his wife Ivy whom he had married at Gravesend in April 1914, they had had three children, one of whom died in infancy." ALSO: "For many years Downie worked as a turnstile operator at Celtic Park the home of his beloved Celtic Football Club. Robert Downie died on the 18th of April 1968 at the age of 74 and is buried in St.Kentigern's Roman Catholic Cemetery in Glasgow."
 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Ivor Anderson said:

I imagine the timing of his VC award overshadowed his MM. His MM was a retrospective award, so hard to pinpoint. One website linked further up states:

"Downie was to be wounded five times and also gassed before leaving the Army in March 1919 and settling down with his wife Ivy whom he had married at Gravesend in April 1914, they had had three children, one of whom died in infancy." ALSO: "For many years Downie worked as a turnstile operator at Celtic Park the home of his beloved Celtic Football Club. Robert Downie died on the 18th of April 1968 at the age of 74 and is buried in St.Kentigern's Roman Catholic Cemetery in Glasgow."
 

Perhaps his descendants might know something, I’ll be surprised if they don’t given his status and the pride that Glasgow takes in his exploits.

[Ivor Anderson]

 His only daughter died soon after him. He may have had a son, but the family is very unlikely to know about the circumstances of his MM.

His wife Ivy Louise Sparkes was born in Gravesend, Kent. They were married there in Q2 1914.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/398108:60526?tid=&pid=&queryId=9a785927e0ee65728ccc1f2d5ff90949&_phsrc=qzF6106&_phstart=successSource

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Ivor Anderson said:

 His only daughter died soon after him. He may have had a son, but the family is very unlikely to know about the circumstances of his MM.

Apparently 2 of his 3 children survived, so presumably there were 2-lines of progeny subsequently.  It’s possible that they won’t have retained details, but no one will know if they’re not asked.

[Ivor Anderson]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s possible that they won’t have retained details, but no one will know if they’re not asked.

  Privacy rules prevent us tracing them via recent online records. All three children will likely be dead by now.

  Scottish records are also costly to search. Perhaps grandchildren may find this thread. 

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

  Privacy rules prevent us tracing them via recent online records. Scottish records are also costly to search. Perhaps they may find this thread. 

I hope so, he was an extraordinary man. You could always place a complimentary inquiry in a local newspaper as an ‘interest’ story and there are also websites (local community hubs) that fulfil the same function, but cut through to the younger generations more effectively.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

One website says that Robert lost 2 older brothers in WW1, David & Richard.

If this is his brother David, he also won a MM as an acting CSM. LG 11 Oct 1916: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29780/supplement/9830

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/169312/david-downie/

DAVID was the eldest, born 3rd April 1876 in Dundee: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/3642100:1108?tid=&pid=&queryId=97f7740c210d40d312fe21ae8c3c5d0d&_phsrc=qzF6115&_phstart=successSource

This is definitely Richard:

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Ivor Anderson]

Their parents, Francis Downie and Eliza Jane Taylor were married at St Andrew's RC chapel, in the district of St Mary's, Dundee on the 14th Feb 1876.

Francis' parents were John Downie & Catherine Johnston. Francis (aged 20) & his father were 'foundry labourers'.

I found a family tree on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/18184182/person/1094263918/facts?_phsrc=qzF6116&_phstart=successSource  

Another tree: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/79849346/person/42409009214/facts

It only mentions a daughter Annie 1924-1970.

Robert's father Francis died at 38 Carleston Street, Springburn, Glasgow on 15 April 1913. Born 9 Dec 1853, Laurencetown, Tullylish, Co. Down, Ireland

His mother died at 7 Carleston Street, Springburn, Glasgow on 24 October 1924.

It states: "after the war he worked at Celtic Park at the turnstiles and after his death his VC was gifted to the Celtic museum and is on display there."

I've sent a pm to 2 Downie tree owners on Ancestry.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Ivor Anderson]

Robert F (Francis?) Downie was born in Gravesend district, Kent in Q2 1914. Mother's maiden name 'Sparks'.

              DEATH: Robert Francis Downey, 1984, aged 70, mother's maiden name SPARKS, 607 / 806, Glasgow, Martha St.

              Married Helena Brady 30th August 1935, Springburn. Boilermaker, aged 21.

An Eliza Jane Downie was born in Springburn, Glasgow in 1917. Mother's maiden name 'Sparks'. She died aged 1 in 1919. DC (Scotland's People):

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Their parents, Francis Downie and Eliza Jane Taylor were married at St Andrew's RC chapel, in the district of St Mary's, Dundee on the 14th Feb 1876.

Francis' parents were John Downie & Catherine Johnston. Francis (aged 20) & his father were 'foundry labourers'.

I found a family tree on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/18184182/person/1094263918/facts?_phsrc=qzF6116&_phstart=successSource  

Another tree: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/79849346/person/42409009214/facts

It only mentions a daughter Annie 1924-1970.

Robert's father Francis died at 38 Carleston Street, Springburn, Glasgow on 15 April 1913. Born 9 Dec 1853, Laurencetown, Tullylish, Co. Down, Ireland

His mother died at 7 Carleston Street, Springburn, Glasgow on 24 October 1924.

It states: "after the war he worked at Celtic Park at the turnstiles and after his death his VC was gifted to the Celtic museum and is on display there."

I've sent a pm to 2 Downie tree owners on Ancestry.

Good luck with the Downie tree owners, let’s hope that they respond.

[Jervis]

Hi Ivor, 
I have a copy of the regimental history “Crown & Company” but unfortunately it does not add to what you have already stated. 

The RDFAssociarion wrote a detailed article on Downie in 2016 In the publication’The Blue Cap’ (page 21 on).But alas, it does not even mention his MM! 

Trying to find out details on MM awards can be very frustrating.  I wish you luck  

Jervis

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Jervis

[Ivor Anderson]

15 minutes ago, Jervis said:

The RDFAssociarion wrote a detailed article on Downie in 2016 In the publication’The Blue Cap’ (page 21 on).But alas, it does not even mention his MM! 

        Hi Jervis, He definitely got an MM. It is listed in the LG, he has a MM index card and he is wearing it in the photo.

        His being awarded the VC so soon afterwards overshadowed his MM, which was retrospectively awarded for a much earlier action.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Jervis]

3 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

        Hi Jervis, He definitely got an MM. It is listed in the LG, he has a MM index card and he is wearing it in the photo.

I agree. It it is recorded in the regimental history too. I was just remarking how frustrating it is that someone has gone to the bother of detailing various aspect of Downie’s life, but makes no mention of the MM. 

[Ivor Anderson]

42 minutes ago, Jervis said:

I have a copy of the regimental history “Crown & Company” but unfortunately it does not add to what you have already stated.

    True, though the article on pp.21-23 is still interesting. I have 'Crown & Company' too. I see him listed among the MMs on p.183.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info