2nd battalion RDF October 1916

[Curhalios]

Pte Frederick Scarr 9297 was killed on 16 October 1916. He is one of 4 members of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers remembered on the Menin Gate killed on the same day. 1 served in D Company 2nd battalion so its possible that all were in D Company. Pte Scarr was in the 2nd battalion RDF according to the medal roll but his death is recorded in France.

The battalion's history as far as I can find it indicates that the 2 RDF was part of the 10^th Brigade of the 4^th Division until 15 November 1916. As such, the battalion was part of XIV Corps of the 4^th army and fought in the the battle of the Transloy Ridges, fought between 1 and 18 October 1916.

Any suggestions as to why Pte Scarr and his 3 fellow soldiers from the 2nd battalion were in the Ypres sector when their battalion was fighting on the Somme?

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

The War Diary has them in the front trenches near Daours with 9 killed during a relief.

A Field Return on the 14th shows 30 officers and 929 men with some attached.

Away from the battalion were 13 officers and 109 men in various schools, MGC, hospital and 'other details'.

Regards,

Graeme

[corisande]

"Crown & Company" the history of the 2nd RDF, gives them in the Somme

They went into the front trenches on 13 Oct. There are details of an attack on 23rd Oct in which A, B , C, and D companies all took part, with details given

[Old Scalyback]

This is bigger than you think! Here is a list of the 2nd Bn RDF Kia in October 1916 and commemorated on the Menin gate. extracted from the roll of honour of the 2nd RDF. I think these men are on the wrong memorial!

http://somme-roll-of-honour.com/Units/british/2nd_dublin.htm

2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers KIA October 1916 Commemorated on Menin Gate

7691 Private Patrick NAVIN Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

8598 Private Patrick NOLAN Killed in action on the 16th October 1916 - Age 38 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

43041 Private Michael O'DONOGHUE Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 20 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

13599 Private Francis O'HARA Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 24 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

9981 Corporal Thomas O'NEILL Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 26 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

18333 Lance Corporal Hugh PLUNKETT Killed in action on the 16th October 1916 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

6704 Sergeant Arthur Washington RAY Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

25392 Private John REYNOLDS Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

21661 Private Andrew ROCHFORD Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 23 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

9632 Lance Corporal Bernard RYDER Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 25 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

9297 Private Frederick SCARR Killed in action on the 16th October 1916 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

18548 Private James Joseph SHEARIN Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

5651 Private Michael SHERIDAN Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

15949 Sergeant Stanley Thomas SMITH Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 28 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

43055 Corporal William J. SPROULE Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

25622 Private Robert STAPLETON Killed in action on the 16th October 1916 - Age 27 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

18250 Private Charles STEVENS Killed in action on the 16th October 1916 - Age 27 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

7073 Lance Corporal Alfred SWAN Killed in action on the 23rd October - Age 34 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

17886 Lance Corporal Henry Augustine WATTS Killed in action on the 23rd October Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

25734 Private Francis WEIR Killed in action on the 12th October 1916 - Age 21 Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

16292 Private Charles WHISTON Killed in action on the 23rd October Commemorated on Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial

Edited 12 June , 2015 by Old Scalyback

[corisande]

That is only the alphabetic N to Z, there are others A to O on that list

"Crown & Company" the history of the 2nd RDF, says between 14 and 22 Oct there were 11 men killed

And that might be the clue. If you look at other alphabetic deaths they are Commemorated on Thiepval Memorial.

A bit of work would be required to separate out what has happening with the memorials

[Old Scalyback]

Unless I missed some, all the men A to O are on the Theipval memorial. and all those with named graves lie on the LOC back from the Somme. there are none in Belgium. the 9th battalion are in action in the Kemmel sector of the Ypres Salient during this period.

[Curhalios]

This is really interesting. Thanks for all the comments. Another mystery partially solved!

[Ivor Anderson]

One of my great-grandfather's brothers, Corporal William Joseph Sproule (43055) of the 2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers, is one of those killed on the attack on the German gun pits on the Transloy Ridges near Lesboeufs on 23rd October 1916. Many died in the machine gun fire and hand-to-hand trench fighting. Like many others who died that day he has no known grave. Those with surnames A-M are listed on the Thiepval Memorial and those beginning N-Z are on the Menin Gate at Ypres. A photo of the Menin Gate names is here: https://michaelfisherreporter.com/2019/09/22/menin-gate-names/

Most of the officers were killed or wounded in the attack and Sergeant Robert Downie 11213 (from Springburn, Glasgow) rallied the men and cried 'Come on the Dubs'. He won the Victoria Cross for his actions that day. His citation was in the London Gazette of 25th November 1916:

For most conspicuous bravery and devotion to duty in attack. When most of the officers had become casualties, this non-commissioned officer, utterly regardless of personal danger, moved about under heavy fire and reorganised the attack, which had been temporarily checked. At the critical moment he rushed forward alone, shouting, ‘Come on the Dubs’. This stirring appeal met with immediate response and the line rushed forward at his call. Sergeant Downie accounted for several of the enemy and in addition, captured a machine gun, killing the team. 

He received his V.C. from King George V at Sandringham on 8th January 1917. So many men died that day that Robert Downie never spoke about it. He only said that 'Every man in the Battalion won the VC that day'. Downie died in Glasgow in 1968. He worked as a groundsman for Celtic Football Club after the War. Two of his brothers, David & Richard, were killed in France in WW1. His parents were from Laurencetown, Co. Down.

2 Photos of Sgt. Downie below and my great uncle William Sproule below them:

 

Edited 17 May , 2020 by Ivor Anderson
Add photo of Cpl. William Sproule

[Ivor Anderson]

The 2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers War Diary list of casualties for October gives a total of 9 other ranks killed on the 16th October 1916.

A look through the website list further up gives these 9 names listed on the Menin Gate as killed on 16th October 1916:

Pte. Edward Connell 17864

Pte. James Conron 4660

Pte. Patrick Heaphey 43020 aged 18

Pte. John Howard 20510

Pte. James Kelly 6951 aged 38

Pte. John Kerrigan 26817

Pte. Patrick Nolan 8598 aged 38

Pte. Frederick Scarr 9297

Pte. Robert Stapleton 25622 aged 27

 

The 2nd RDF War Diary entry for 16th October states that there was heavy German shelling that evening - see attached:

 

Edited 17 May , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

The 2nd RDF had been near Ypres up until mid September 1916. This may account for some Somme casualty names being on the Menin Gate.

I took my grandfather to see his Uncle William Sproule's name on the Menin Gate in September 1986. Another of his uncles is also named on it.

 

If you look at the photo below you can see the names of these 2nd RDF killed near Le Transloy/Lesbeouf in October 1916:

9981 Corporal Thomas O'NEILL Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 26 

18333 Lance Corporal Hugh PLUNKETT Killed in action on the 16th October 1916 

9632 Lance Corporal Bernard RYDER Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 25

15949 Sergeant Stanley Thomas SMITH Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 - Age 28 

43055 Corporal William J. SPROULE Killed in action on the 23rd October 1916 

7073 Lance Corporal Alfred SWAN Killed in action on the 23rd October - Age 34 

17886 Lance Corporal Henry Augustine WATTS Killed in action on the 23rd October 

Edited 17 May , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Three sergeants of the 2nd RDF were awarded Military Medals for the action at the gun-pits near Le Transloy on 23 October 1916:

Sjt. Michael Gaffney 26965 (LG 21 December 1916, RP 68/121/111, no schedule no. on card). Later Comm. Ended WW1 as Lieut. 

Sjt. John Carroll 8249 - Schedule no. 53870 (LG 6 January 1917, RP 68/121/114) - became a CSM.

Sjt. Claude Newenham Wallace 6642 - no sch. no. on card (LG 6 January 1917, RP 68/121/114). Veteran of the Boer War.

This was in addition to the VC won by Sjt. Robert Downie for the same action:

Edited 27 December , 2020 by Ivor Anderson