RAMC Officer Training

[PRC]

One of those grey areas, (at least for me), and not covered by the LLT - there doesn't appear to be an OCB dedicated for the Royal Army Medical Corps for example

Were potential officers in the RAMC always commissioned first and then underwent any training?
If some did start as cadets - how long normally did their training start?
And for those commissioned straight in, how long normally would any subsequent training last?
If the man concerned had previously spent time in the OTC would that have any impact on the length of time of post commission training?

Up until now I'd just been assuming the standard 18 weeks was the norm, but that seems excessive for men who were already fully or part qualified in their field.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit to add I'm focussing on the situation from 1916 onwards.

Edited 1 January , 2023 by PRC

[FROGSMILE]

Absolute chaos seems to be the answer for young medical students already underway with their training and it’s only my life experience as a fully paid up cynic that prevents me from being surprised by the details explained here:https://www.rcpe.ac.uk/sites/default/files/15.pdf

Then, as now, there was a separate short course for those officer aspirants already professionally qualified, but I’m not sure offhand how long it was during WW1.  I shall try to find out and report back.  In the meantime: https://www.friendsofmillbank.org/downloads/AMS in WW1.pdf

There is a relatively recently published book on the subject, but unfortunately the review does not cover the answer to our question: https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-book-reviews/doctors-in-the-great-war/

Edited 1 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

'Doctors in the Great War' probably covers it but I don't have a copy. Here's a review in WFA but it doesn't mention training period. 

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-book-reviews/doctors-in-the-great-war/

[alf mcm]

'Doctors in the Great War' does cover training. In late 1916/early 1917 all training was concentrated in Blackpool. This included theatre training for those doctors assigned to tropical areas etc. I would recommend getting a copy of the book, it is availavle at little cost. The Kindle version can be read almost immediately after ordering, and is fully searchable.  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctors-Great-War-Ian-Whitehead/dp/1783461748

Regards,

Alf McM

Edited 1 January , 2023 by alf mcm

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

'Doctors in the Great War' does cover training. In late 1916/early 1917 all training was concentrated in Blackpool. This included theatre training for those doctors assigned to tropical areas etc. I would recommend getting a copy of the book, it is availavle at little cost.  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctors-Great-War-Ian-Whitehead/dp/1783461748

Regards,

Alf McM

Thanks Alf, it was just “the review” that both Charlie and I mentioned as not covering the training (of qualified doctors) rather than the book itself.  I agree that it’s a good cost. 

[MaureenE]

Some sample pages for 'Doctors in the Great War'

https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Doctors_in_the_Great_War.html?id=3ZZICgAAQBAJ

Maureen

[aconnolly]

In New Zealand at the time there was one Medical School and the final year cohort volunteered their service by way of a letter to the Dean of the faculty the day after war declared.  Given our academic year runs alongside the calendar, these men had only a few weeks left before qualifying so they were granted early release and were  commissioned into the Medical Corps.  A number of them saw active service on Gallipoli, others left later to go to the Western Front.  Men of other years also rushed to join and ultimately rules had to be set.  Those in early years of there course (1-3) could leave and join the NZEF but those in later ("clinical") years were retained to finish their studies.  Similar rules ultimately applied in UK.  

On Gallipoli the final year men were working as doctors; the rest as stretcher bearers or in the fighting branches of the NZ Brigade.  Remarkably all survived.  The non-graduated ones all were ordered back to NZ in late 1915 to complete their studies and some ultimately went back as doctors in the NZMC

In Turkey, one Medical School had no graduates from one year - all killed in the defence of Gallipoli.

Andrew

[seaJane]

@PRC the Journal of the RAMC is open access here and it should be possible to search for training between certain dates:

https://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/by/year

sJ

[PRC]

14 hours ago, seaJane said:

@PRC the Journal of the RAMC is open access here and it should be possible to search for training between certain dates:

https://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/by/year

sJ

Looks like an very interesting source, but tried a couple of searches for the Great War period and found nothing that seemed relevant to the initial training \ induction period for new RAMC officers - a couple of mentions of "after training at Blackpool", and an after dinner speaker \ lecturer who recounted some amusing tales, (not specified), about his initial training after being accepted as an RAMC Officer.

There seemed to be more on how ill-prepared so many of the medics were for military medical practice \ combat medicine \ trauma surgery amd the establishment of in-theatre schools to address these short-comings, when you would have thought the the most effective route was to address this at least partially as part of the initial transition from civil to military life.

Will have to try a few more search criteria and see what turns up.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 5 January , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[alf mcm]

This war diary, although it refers to ANZAC Medical Officers, may be of interest;-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/791471761d824d1c89a0abad78570f40

Regards,

Alf McM

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/01/2023 at 12:01, PRC said:

Looks like an very interesting source, but tried a couple of searches for the Great War period and found nothing that seened relevant ro the initial training \ induction period for new RAMC officers - a couple of mentions of "after training at Blackpool", and an after dinner speaker \ lecturer who recounted some amusing tales, (not specified), about his initial training after being accepted as an RAMC Officer.

There seemed to be more on how ill-prepared so many of the medics were for military medical practice \ combat medicine \ trauma surgery amd the establishment of in-theatre schools to address these short-comings, when you would have thought the the most effective route was to address this at least partially as part of the initial transition from civil to military life.

Will have to try a few more search criteria and see what turns up.

Cheers,
Peter

I still can’t find anything on the length of military induction training for those doctors already qualified.  My impression is that in the early stages of the war, when the need was acute, the organised military training was negligible and almost a case of put a uniform on and go (learn on the job).  Of course that couldn’t last and I’m sure that subsequently a formalised standard course was established.  So many of the similar PQO courses of today are still based on the lessons learned from those times and subsequently (WW2, etc.).  My guess is it would probably have been about half the length of what eventually became the standardised officers general course, so probably around 8-weeks.  It will be good to find something definitive though.  It seems curiously opaque at the moment.

Edited 9 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

2023 ........ "Doctors & medical students: Join when you're at medical school, after your foundation year 2 or as a qualified GP or consultant. Medical students can apply for a bursary of £10,000 per year for the last 3 years of study, plus a £45,000 lump sum after completing the PQO course at Sandhurst. Qualified GPs are offered a Golden Hello of £50,000 when they join" PQO (Professionally Qualified Officer)"..... is 10 weeks long and designed to give you a military training, while teaching you core military skills such as drill, field training, officership and command." ....... and TA expectations remain proportionately far less.

Rewind to 1914-18 ....... so you're a PQO? ........ you're in. 

There's actually nothing more to look for and that's why we havn't/will not find it.

Edited 6 January , 2023 by TullochArd

[EastSurrey]

On 05/01/2023 at 14:11, FROGSMILE said:

I still can’t find anything on the length of military induction training for those doctors already qualified.  My impression is that in the early stages of the war, when the need was acute, the organised military training was negligible and almost a case of put a uniform on and go (learn on the job).  Of course that couldn’t last and I’m sure that subsequently a formalised standard course was established.  So many of the similar PQ courses of today are still based on the lessons learned from those times and subsequently (WW2, etc.).  My guess is it would probably have been about half the length of what eventually became the standardised officers general course, so probably around 8-weeks.  It will be good to find something definitive though.  It seems curiously opaque at the moment.

Clearly,  there was very limited training in the early days. Captain George Pirie recorded in his diary, ( Frontline Medic' edited by Michael Lucas, published by Helion)

'14.12.14 Received papers from the War Office to fill in for a   commission in R.A.M.C. (R.S.)

16.12.14 Medically examined and sent papers off filled in to War Office.

3.1.15 Received notice from War Office saying commission granted at Lieut. in R.A.M.C. (R.S.) 

16.1.15 Reported myself at Aldershot for 14 days probationary training.

30.1.15 Finished training and passed the exam. I enjoyed my course very much. We had four hours a day drill on the square and one or two lectures.'

Pirie had graduated, with distinction, from Edinburgh University in July 1914 and then worked as a senior house physician at Leith. His  previous military experience was limited to College Cadet Corps in South Africa and service in the medical section of the O.T.C. at university. He was sent to the Mediterranean in March 1915, and served, with distinction on Gallipoli and the Western Front, before being killed in July 1917.

Michael

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, EastSurrey said:

Clearly,  there was very limited training in the early days. Captain George Pirie recorded in his diary, ( Frontline Medic' edited by Michael Lucas, published by Helion)

'14.12.14 Received papers from the War Office to fill in for a   commission in R.A.M.C. (R.S.)

16.12.14 Medically examined and sent papers off filled in to War Office.

3.1.15 Received notice from War Office saying commission granted at Lieut. in R.A.M.C. (R.S.) 

16.1.15 Reported myself at Aldershot for 14 days probationary training.

30.1.15 Finished training and passed the exam. I enjoyed my course very much. We had four hours a day drill on the square and one or two lectures.'

Pirie had graduated, with distinction, from Edinburgh University in July 1914 and then worked as a senior house physician at Leith. His  previous military experience was limited to College Cadet Corps in South Africa and service in the medical section of the O.T.C. at university. He was sent to the Mediterranean in March 1915, and served, with distinction on Gallipoli and the Western Front, before being killed in July 1917.

Michael

Thank you Michael, that’s really helpful.  A 14-day course in the early part of the war then.  It would be nice now to learn of another RMO following a similar course in say 1916-17, just to see if a longer PWO course did evolve.  There would probably have been less already qualified men joining as the war went on as they would have started coming straight from college and university, but there were probably still at least some, late joiners.

Edited 9 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[benjamin thyla]

Dear all, the George Pirie casus is indeed very interesting, but the man had "just" graduated. Though he was a house officer, he didn't have any experience. Nevertheless, after a training course of 14 D, he found himself at the frontline. Amazing.

The man I am interested in is a surgeon (BS 1910, MS 1911), with a practice starting in 1912-1913 (Catterick), commissioned as a Lt mid-July 1917. That is someone with 5-7 years of general and surgical practice.

Sincerely, Benjamin Thyla  

[CraigD]

I'm researching a John James Harrower Ferguson, MC, RAMC. He was Medical Superintendent at the Fife and Kinross Asylum when he was commissioned as a Lieutenant in June 1915. His Medal roll indicated he mobilised to France on 1st December 1915 i.e. approx 6 months later. I have no information on where he was, what he did or what training he received in those six months

[charlie962]

Note that this risks duplicating an enquiry on another thread 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/303994-john-james-harrower-ferguson-mc-ramc/