1910 dated leather rifle sling?

[MrEd]

A leather rifle sling I have picked up recently,  was a chance find.

Dated 1910 and maker marked Butlers Brothers Walsall, who an internet search tells me traded from about 1900 to about 1980 and were a huge saddlery manufacturer in Walsall (and arguably Walsall was the main centre of leather production). Measures just under 1 + 1/4 inch and is 44inches long.

Broad arrow marked on the other side of the loop end, and the loops are sewn not riveted. Some cracks in areas where the leather has been folded but still very usable, quite grimy, dark in colour and a bit oil/grease saturated (which is probably why it’s survived?) and is flexible but not new belt flexible.

Be interested in people thoughts. It felt and looked genuine to me (compared against other genuine leather items I have) but this is my first leather sling. Wasn’t hugely expensive, about the same as good quality artisan-made (I.e not mass produced Chinese stuff) modern repros go for, but I am not completely sure tbh.

I also have a question about pattern - bit early for 1914 pattern so is it 1888 pattern (wouldn’t that be buff colour?) or is it part of 1903 bandolier kit? or ‘just’ a leather rifle sling and not of a ‘pattern’? Presumably this was for use with Lee metfords and early SMLEs?

thanks

ed

[Pete_C]

It’s 100% genuine but I’m going to suggest the date is 1940 with maybe a badly struck or worn 4. The ‘sling, rifle, pattern 1914’ wasn’t introduced until September 1914 (LoC 16978). There was no equivalent leather pattern sling in service in 1910 - the ‘sling, rifle, brown, infantry’ introduced in 1885 for use with the Valise Equipment (1882) was longer and slightly wider. The pattern was reintroduced in 1940 as a stop gap to equip the Home Guard and it is these slings that still turn up regularly - an example below from another Walsall maker.

Cheers

Pete

 

 

[MrEd]

On 31/12/2022 at 20:35, Pete_C said:

It’s 100% genuine but I’m going to suggest the date is 1940 with maybe a badly struck or worn 4. The ‘sling, rifle, pattern 1914’ wasn’t introduced until September 1914 (LoC 16978). There was no equivalent leather pattern sling in service in 1910 - the ‘sling, rifle, brown, infantry’ introduced in 1885 for use with the Valise Equipment (1882) was longer and slightly wider. The pattern was reintroduced in 1940 as a stop gap to equip the Home Guard and it is these slings that still turn up regularly - an example below from another Walsall maker.

Cheers

Pete

 

 

Thanks Pete, this is what got me muddled about it - I was looking at the spacing of the numbers and thought they looked quite even and if a mis-stamped 4 then would look quite uneven? - this is where I was confused/not sure about what pattern

I have zoomed in a bit below but can try for a better photo tomorrow 

I will also take some photos tomorrow of the measurements with an actual tape measure - my measurement so far have been just near enough guesstimates.

 

thanks 

ed

 

 

[Pete_C]

3 minutes ago, MrEd said:

Thanks Pete, this is what got me muddled about it - I was looking at the spacing of the numbers and thought they looked quite even and if a mis-stamped 4 then would look quite uneven? - this is where I was confused/not sure about what pattern

I have zoomed in a bit below but can try for a better photo tomorrow 

I will also take some photos tomorrow of the measurements with an actual tape measure - my measurement so far have been just near enough guesstimates.

 

thanks 

ed

 

Agreed, the closer I look, I can’t see any evidence that it’s ever been a 4, there’s no trace at all. It does appear to be 1910 so if it is military, then we’re missing something. 
 

Pete

[MrEd]

On 31/12/2022 at 21:04, Pete_C said:

Agreed, the closer I look, I can’t see any evidence that it’s ever been a 4, there’s no trace at all. It does appear to be 1910 so if it is military, then we’re missing something. 
 

Pete

Yeah that’s my thoughts too, I am super stumped. Maybe accurate measurements might reveal what it is. 
 

Or it’s a very very good fake but a) it doesn’t feel or look fake to me - it has age to it that just can’t be faked convincingly (imo) and b) why would you go to the bother of faking something that is neither boer or ww1 dated? 
 

Was there any commonwealth or other countries that used leather slings around that time? I am assuming British army - but it may not have been? But the broad arrow would suggest it was?  Unless it’s not a broad arrow? Here is a zoom in of that marking - or could possibly be a V, maybe a U and an I? I could just be seeing things though. If it isn’t a broad arrow could it be a commercial purchase for a shooting club maybe? 

[Dave66]

I can’t see why anyone would fake this, so genuine to my untrained eyes….either private purchase, or an unofficial addition to the 1903 bandolier equipment???

Dave.

[4thGordons]

I too think it's probably 1940.

with a poorly struck 4.

On your second picture it looks to me as though there is a faint shadow of the start of the top of the downward diagonal and a trace of where the horizontal line crosses the vertical (as though a 4 stamp was, instead of being held vertically, angled slightly to the right so really only the vertical bar was stamped cleanly.

That said I would have expected the whole stamp to have been made up in one piece not individual letters. If this was the case then the same effect could be created if there was a small lump (piece of workshop detritus or a flake of the previous strap) under this when stamped.  The fact that the 9 is also very light might support this suggestion.

I wonder if it might be possible to look into the history of the maker to see if they were producing leather goods in 1910 (or even contracts for 1940)

Chris

3 hours ago, Pete_C said:

It’s 100% genuine but I’m going to suggest the date is 1940 with maybe a badly struck or worn 4. The ‘sling, rifle, pattern 1914’ wasn’t introduced until September 1914 (LoC 16978). There was no equivalent leather pattern sling in service in 1910 - the ‘sling, rifle, brown, infantry’ introduced in 1885 for use with the Valise Equipment (1882) was longer and slightly wider. The pattern was reintroduced in 1940 as a stop gap to equip the Home Guard and it is these slings that still turn up regularly - an example below from another Walsall maker.

Cheers

Pete

 

Edited 1 January , 2023 by 4thGordons

[MrEd]

On 01/01/2023 at 00:21, 4thGordons said:

I too think it's probably 1940.

with a poorly struck 4.

On your second picture it looks to me as though there is a faint shadow of the start of the top of the downward diagonal and a trace of where the horizontal line crosses the vertical (as though a 4 stamp was, instead of being held vertically, angled slightly to the right so really only the vertical bar was stamped cleanly.

That said I would have expected the whole stamp to have been made up in one piece not individual letters. If this was the case then the same effect could be created if there was a small lump (piece of workshop detritus or a flake of the previous strap) under this when stamped. 

I wonder if it might be possible to look into the history of the maker to see if they were producing leather goods in 1910 (or even contracts for 1940)

Chris

 

Graces guide has them as leather workers at the time, and there is a Black Country history website that has them down as saddlers from 1900 to 1980, so they were producing leather goods then but for the army? I don’t know. I don’t know about 1940 army production either tbh.

there is this aswell which gives some details of the company early on

https://sclhrg.org.uk/images/stories/proceedings/V3-Spring_1994-3.pdf

I don’t know where I would look for military contracts for 1910 or 1940 tbh

I shall examine the 1 (or 4) with a magnifying glass tomorrow and some side lighting - but yes I see what you are seeing. 

doesn’t matter if it is 1940 - I shall put it on a weedon’d p14 I have! Or eBay!

[4thGordons]

Well it's a very nice piece.

And would be great on a Home Guard / LDV P14.

I think I have a record of where the WWII contracts for weapons are - not sure if slings will be covered - I'll have a look.

Cheers

Chris

[MrEd]

@4thGordons @Pete_C @Dave66

I have taken the best close up photo i can using a macro lens on a DSLR -  this is straight off the camera, just resized so it can upload to the forum (original was 22mb).

[MikeyH]

The spacing between the digits looks like 1910 is correct to me.

Mike.

[Andrew Upton]

Just to add my weight behind what Pete and Chris have already said - that's a badly stamped 1940 date, and not 1910.

[MrEd]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

Just to add my weight behind what Pete and Chris have already said - that's a badly stamped 1940 date, and not 1910.

I have not found much evidence of 1910 dated leather slings of this pattern and I have no idea about military contracts for this company - but they were trading in both years. There is plenty of 1940/41 dated leather goods out there though.
very poorly stamped. I will keep looking for a photo of a 1940 example by the same maker to compare year stamps

[MrEd]

6 hours ago, MrEd said:

@4thGordons @Pete_C @Dave66

I have taken the best close up photo i can using a macro lens on a DSLR -  this is straight off the camera, just resized so it can upload to the forum (original was 22mb).

 

In this photo above is this what you are seeing as 1940?

 

EDIT - I measured it today, 1-1/4inch wide and 47inches long (when laid out flat and the keeper end unfurled and the tie end untied) or 42-1/2 inches (ish) with the ends as they would be on a rifle 

Edited 1 January , 2023 by MrEd

[MrEd]

19 hours ago, MikeyH said:

The spacing between the digits looks like 1910 is correct to me.

Mike.

 I have found a chap on social media who has a sling by the same manufacturer - he isn’t sure if the date but is going to send me a photo  

[MrEd]

Haven’t found another 1940 dated butler brothers but I did find this, different manufacturer, but 1940 - the 4 is quite different though in the way it’s stamped - but the spacing for the vertical of the 4 is the same

[Pete_C]

Not quite, but closer. Found this in my own spares box - Butler Bros, Walsall, 1941 - if nothing else, it confirms they were actually making slings for the Home Guard in 1940/41. There’s also an inspector’s stamp - 134 - adjacent to the name stamp. The ‘S’ at the end of ‘Brothers’ appears to have been added separately in that it’s too small and slightly misaligned.

Pete

 

 

 

Edited 25 March , 2023 by Pete_C

[MrEd]

On 26/03/2023 at 08:18, Pete_C said:

Not quite, but closer. Found this in my own spares box - Butler Bros, Walsall, 1941 - if nothing else, it confirms they were actually making slings for the Home Guard in 1940/41. There’s also an inspector’s stamp - 134 - adjacent to the name stamp. The ‘S’ at the end of ‘Brothers’ appears to have been added separately in that it’s too small and slightly misaligned.

Pete

 

 

 

Thanks Pete - it’s quite an unusual ‘4’ in my opinion - more stylised run just a straight 4, and quite heavily imprinted in the leather. Still not entirely 100% sure tbh

[Fromelles]

Not a subject I'm very familiar with, but does the stitching of the keepers, instead of riveting, mean anything? From memory, all the slings I've noticed have been riveted.

Looking at all the '4s' in the 1940s examples shown have the vertical line spaced slightly more to the right, whereas the 1910 example is quite central.

Dan

Edited 12 April , 2023 by Fromelles

[MrEd]

7 hours ago, Fromelles said:

Not a subject I'm very familiar with, but does the stitching of the keepers, instead of riveting, mean anything? From memory, all the slings I've noticed have been riveted.

Looking at all the '4s' in the 1940s examples shown have the vertical line spaced slightly more to the right, whereas the 1910 example is quite central.

Dan

That was what made me think it was 1910 originally tbh, the spacing 

[Pete_C]

9 hours ago, Fromelles said:

Not a subject I'm very familiar with, but does the stitching of the keepers, instead of riveting, mean anything? From memory, all the slings I've noticed have been riveted.

I’m not sure it does Dan. Here’s a GW period photo with riveted keepers - I suspect both methods were used.

Pete

 

[4thGordons]

What pattern do you believe this sling to be?

It looks to me as though it is a standard Sling, rifle, pattern 1914, under L. of C. No. 16978, dated 6th September 1914 . These are 43 1/2-inches long by 1 1/4-inches wide. 

If this is the case, then, as we know it continued in service and production up through WWII, therefore the date is almost certainly 1940 (I have another one made in 1940 by a different manufacturer). This was, and is, what I think this sling is. I cannot see how a sling could pre-date the approval of the pattern by 4 years, (I know there is often a lag but not 4 years, in peacetime)

The other option would seem to be Sling, rifle, brown, infantry, introduced under L. of C. 4855, 29th August 1885 (part of the Valise Equipment, Pattern 1882.)  but this pattern of sling is longer and wider than the Pattern 14 so if this example is the dimensions above, that would underline to me it is a mistruck 4 on a WWII production sling.

Chris

Edited 13 April , 2023 by 4thGordons
typo

[Fromelles]

15 hours ago, Pete_C said:

I’m not sure it does Dan. Here’s a GW period photo with riveted keepers - I suspect both methods were used.

Pete

 

Pete,

That's what I mean, aren't they usually riveted?

Is there any chance it's a Territorial thing? I know they used some weird and wonderful stuff.

Dan

[4thGordons]

27 minutes ago, Fromelles said:

Pete,

That's what I mean, aren't they usually riveted?

I've just spent a joyful 30 mins checking through the LoC for slings back to the original buff leather for muskets and as far as I can tell none of them specify if the keepers are to be stitched or riveted.

My 1940 Gartstin example is riveted. 

Chris

[MrEd]

Found another 1940 dated sling today, different maker but similar font