Researching medal set

[tankengine888]

Hello!

I have collected my first medal set (excluding 2791 Doolin's VM), but a British one. I'd be glad if anyone can help me research them

L.Z.4718, E. Brian, A.B, R.N.V.R

[Coldstreamer]

Navy not my bag but join the online British medal forum if you are into medals 

[tankengine888]

3 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said:

Navy not my bag but join the online British medal forum if you are into medals 

Good point, I'll try there now.

[chaz]

naval record Ed Brian  just gives his medal entitlement, similar to a MIC but only contains medals along with other sailors. entitled to pair only.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1870405:1687?tid=&pid=&queryId=b88291ddc373133d4cb09a01ac4b3381&_phsrc=nnd8724&_phstart=successSource

RNVR record is on NA  Brian, Edward  Z/4718   born 4th March 1879. this record will posssibly give address, age, dob, and list of ships served on some of which will be land bases but the navy always call land bases ships. Set up a free account and you can download with no charge.

Being navy there will not be a service record/enlistment page as you would see with soldiers.

Ancestry has him born in Derby age 2 on the 1891 census to Harry and Emily Brain.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/LEIRG11_3175_3178-0381?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_gl=1*82tnxy*_ga*MTA0NTQ5ODYyMS4xNjQwOTcxNzUx*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY3MjIxNDA4NS4yNDIuMS4xNjcyMjE0ODk3LjYwLjAuMA..&pId=12418914

[horatio2]

London Division RNVR. TNA records here:-

ADM 339 -  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7262923  Entered for Royal Naval Division but quickly transferred at Crystal Palace to Sea Service, during which recovered from desertion (Run).

ADM 337 -  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7682419  1916-19 in HMS MALAYA.

[tankengine888]

Thank you very much!

2 hours ago, horatio2 said:

during which recovered from desertion (Run).

Deserted eh? Interesting. 

2 hours ago, chaz said:

Ancestry has him born in Derby age 2 on the 1891 census to Harry and Emily Brain.

2 in 1891 when he's born in 1879..?

I wonder if I'll be able to find a photo of him.. I'll frame it if I can!
Zidane

[nhclark]

There's a record of an Edward Brian aged 12 entering the Training Ship "Exmouth" on 29th October 1890. She was moored in the Thames off Grays, Essex. He was discharged to the Woolwich Union House on 17th December of the same year.

I can't readily find a matching birth record for the dob given. No place of birth is given on his navy records.

This fellow could prove elusive. I wonder whether the note on his navy records about notifying the finance department at Westminster City Hall is connected with him being a parish boy.

[tankengine888]

10 minutes ago, nhclark said:

This fellow could prove elusive

He is, I cannot find much on him decides existing naval records. His address is 96 Fitzalan Street/Kennington Road, S.E in London. My Ancestry doesn't like cooperating with me so I cannot find who was living there on the 1911 census. I think he was the boy on the training ship Exmouth but nothing can really prove it yet.
Thanks for the help so far,
Zidane.

[PRC]

29 minutes ago, nhclark said:

There's a record of an Edward Brian aged 12 entering the Training Ship "Exmouth" on 29th October 1890. She was moored in the Thames off Grays, Essex. He was discharged to the Woolwich Union House on 17th December of the same year.

Could this be him on page 19 line 13 of the 1891 Census of England & Wales return for the Woolwich Workhouse?
Not a clue what it's indexed as, as it didn't come up in a search return.
He's aged 14 and born Woolwich, (although that may just have been said to get him admitted), but may not therefore match the other details known for the sailor with the medals.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

23 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

His address is 96 Fitzalan Street/Kennington Road, S.E in London. My Ancestry doesn't like cooperating with me so I cannot find who was living there on the 1911 census.

There are four households at 96 Fitzalan Street on the 1911 Census of England & Wales.

1) Anthony and Elizabeth Stevens, a couple in their forties, and their 7 children. Anthony was a Builders Foreman.
2) Alfred Charles and Elizabeth Pointer, a couple in their early twenties who had only been married a year, so far with no children. Alfred was a Motor Taxi Cab Driver.
3) Jane Raddick(?), a 69 year old widow.
4) Arthur and Helen Rapley and their two very young children. Arthur was a Wholesale Newsagents Collector.

Definately the right Fitzalan Street -

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[nhclark]

@PRC Excellent work there! I would say that's a likely match with the TS "Exmouth" record.

The only birth I could see on the GRO index that looked like a "possible" is in 1875 (?to John Brian and Emily Sarah Carter?), Edmonton Registration District, but that child died later the same year, so is ruled out. 

As family historians know, research into London ancestors (especially the poor) is very tedious, and frequently unrewarding, with so many small parishes and people on the move the whole time. My maternal grandmother came from Islington and it took me 20 years to identify  her biological father!

@tankengine888 If I think of anything else I will look into it. 

[nhclark]

@tankengine888 Ahh. Hmm. 1939 Register. Edward Brian, born 4th March 1877, General Labourer, living (looks like lodging) 151 Upper Brook Street, Manchester. Died 1955.

Doesn't really take us anywhere but the birth date is, shall we say, interesting?

[tankengine888]

6 minutes ago, nhclark said:

@tankengine888 Ahh. Hmm. 1939 Register. Edward Brian, born 4th March 1877, General Labourer, living (looks like lodging) 151 Upper Brook Street, Manchester. Died 1955.

Doesn't really take us anywhere but the birth date is, shall we say, interesting?

Agreed, I think we might have a lead here.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Noel,

Thanks for helping Zidane with his Pair to the RNVR sailor. 

He, Zidane, is a Mate of mine who has done brilliantly for his young age (sorry if that sounds patronising!).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Zidane,

I would, as a medal collector of some years/decades, prefer to the word "group" (for more than, say, three medals), rather than "set".

Okay, it is a free country, but that is the more readily-acceptable name of a group of medals - or a Pair; or a single (some say singletons, which is also okay).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

[tankengine888]

50 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Zidane,

I would, as a medal collector of some years/decades, prefer to the word "group" (for more than, say, three medals), rather than "set".

Okay, it is a free country, but that is the more readily-acceptable name of a group of medals - or a Pair; or a single (some say singletons, which is also okay).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Acknowledged Kim, I'm still quite new to this so I'm unsure on how to word it.



Back onto the 1877 bloke, could he have lowered his age by two years to be accepted into the navy?

Zidane.

Edited 30 December , 2022 by tankengine888

[PRC]

5 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Back onto the 1877 bloke, could he have lowered his age by two years to be accepted into the navy?

Except in the most glaring cases, ages were not verified when joining the armed forces. Given the low levels of numeracy and literacy he may well have believed he was born 1879 by that time or had just got into the habit of using it.

Seeing as how he didn't join up until January 1916, the only reason that springs to mind is that he wanted to ensure he was taken by the Navy rather than wait to be conscripted into the Army. Unfortunately for him it seems he was posted to the Royal Naval Division. Pure speculation on my part, but might then explain why he ran!

 

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 30 December , 2022 by PRC
Uninformed speculation

[tankengine888]

Just now, PRC said:

Seeing as how he didn't join up until January 1916, the only reason that springs to mind is that he wanted to ensure he was taken by the Navy rather than wait to be conscripted into the Army

That's a fairly good assumption, also what's so bad about the RND? I had a slight thought on this matter... I saw a few workhouse admissions [Orphanage of sorts I believe] for an Edward Brian, this could link up to the unsure date of birth.

Zidane.
 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

also what's so bad about the RND?

I'm suggesting he joins the Navy to avoid being sent to the trenches in France & Flanders - and finds himself posted to a unit of the Navy on its way from fighting in the trenches at Gallipoli to fighting in the trenches in France & Flanders. One that has a reputation for fighting hard and being sent to take the toughest objectives.

Not such a cunning plan afterall

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 30 December , 2022 by PRC
Uninformed speculation

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Unfortunately for him it seems he was posted to the Royal Naval Division. Pure speculation on my part, but might then explain why he ran!

1 hour ago, PRC said:

finds himself posted to a unit of the Navy on its way from fighting in the trenches at Gallipoli to fighting in the trenches in France & Flanders.

Not exactly. Initially selected at Crystal Palace (CP) for the RND, he was drafted into the the 4th [Training] Battalion. These recruit-training battalions at CP were the pathway to the RND reserve battalions at Blandford Camp, Dorset. Just just three days later, however, he was drafted across to the CP Sea Service [Training] Battalion. His desertion six weeks later was from Sea Service, not from the prospect of serving in the RND.

Edited 30 December , 2022 by horatio2

[PRC]

Uninformed speculation now struck through so as to not lead anyone astray. And apologies, I don't know if it's Christmas or Covid but I'm being very cynical at the moment.

Cheers,
Peter

[nhclark]

Edward Brian as in the 1939 Register died in Manchester in 1955 as per my earlier post. He was buried on 28th April 1955 in Manchester's Southern Cemetery in a Roman Catholic section I grave no. 1746 nd his occupation was "retired."  suspect that this is a burial register extract. There may or may not be a gravestone - perhaps a Forum Pal from Manchester might be kind enough to visit the cemetery and find out for you.

I cannot find a probate record. Nothing in the Manchester Evening News for April 1955 in the British Newspaper Archive.

If it were me I would probably order the death certificate for this man. It will give his date of death, place, cause, and informant's name. Of course this may well have been a death in hospital and you won't be able to learn much of use, but if he died at home you may be able to glean something. Certificates (pdf) come by email these days so you don't have to wait long. 

Returning to "Woolwich Man" I think that the boy found at the Woolwich Union House (in Plumstead) in 1891 by @PRC is one and the same as the the boy who spent a few weeks on the Training Ship "Exmouth" and was discharged to the Union by the Committee. Unfortunately the on-line admissions and discharges for the Plumstead facility don't cover the 1890-1891 period. Note that on ancestry Edward Brian is correctly indexed in the 1891 census.

The record of the man whose medal pair you have is interesting. Any report of promotion, death, missing or PoW or discharge from the service was to be sent to the Finance Department at Westminster City Hall, Charing Cross Road. I make of that that he was under some financial obligation to the Westminster Council. Perhaps a garnishee order? @horatio2 Have you ever seen this sort of entry before?

From my perspective there appear to be two "persons of interest" as the police would say - "Woolwich Man" and "Manchester Man." Are they one and the same? I suspect that they are because of the day and month of the given birth date. As has been pointed out, the armed services weren't overly concerned about precise birth dates, and people were somewhat rubbery with their own knowledge anyway. But I have failed to find any further trace of either. We don't know, for example, whether his surname was that of his father or that of his mother. It could also have been one of a number of variants, such as "O'Brien." I can't find a suitable next-of-kin "A. Brian" either.

@tankengine888 I guess it depends on how far you want to go down the rabbit hole. You could, for example, use FreeBMD and list all the births for an "Edward" in the given name(s) for the years 1877-1879 for the Greenwich Registration District (which included Woolwich) (in fact there are not all that many), and then revert to the GRO index of births entering them one-by-one to see if any come up with the mother's name as "Brian."

Finally, you could try this source for "Woolwich Man": https://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/LMA_OPAC/web_detail/REFD+WOBG?SESSIONSEARCH#:~:text=A workhouse was constructed in,"Plumstead and District Hospital". I'm guessing you're here in Australia so you'd have to find someone to look for you. 

This is a tough one! 

Noel

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, nhclark said:

Returning to "Woolwich Man" I think that the boy found at the Woolwich Union House (in Plumstead) in 1891 by @PRC is one and the same as the the boy who spent a few weeks on the Training Ship "Exmouth" and was discharged to the Union by the Committee.

One thought that occurs to me was in what circumstances might this have happened? An incorrible rogue might indicate a life of aliases and prison, poor health might see him as a gentleman of the road who might well be missed by census takers, while we can't rule out time in the armed forces. If he was serving outside England & Wales in 1901, then that years census would only pick him up if he was on the High Seas with the Royal Navy.

There were two training ships named Exmouth: No 1 from 1876 to 1905 and No. 2 from 1905 to 1939. The first ship was loaned to The Metropolitan Asylums Board by the Admiralty and had been named after Viscount Exmouth, Admiral Edward Pellew. https://www.thurrock.gov.uk/history-on-river-thames/training-ships-moored-off-grays-town

Although children formed a substantial part of the MAB’s general intake of infectious sick and mentally handicapped, it also provided for their care in other ways.  In 1875, the training-ship Goliath operated by the Forest Gate School District was destroyed by fire. The Local Government Board decided the ship should be replaced by another vessel, the Exmouth, for the benefit of the whole of London. The MAB took over the running of the scheme which gave naval training to pauper boys aged from thirteen to sixteen, many of whom went on to join the Merchant Navy or Royal Navy. https://www.workhouses.org.uk/MAB/

My understanding is that the Poor Law Union would be looking to place a 14 year old into an apprenticeship, enlist him as a boy soldier or sailor, etc - anything to reduce the drain on the public purse. So taking him back from the Training Ship would have been a step in the wrong direction from that perspective, and not something to be done lightly.

We also have the slight inconsistancy that he boards the training ship in October 1890 as a 12 year old, and yet a few months later is 14. Being aged 12 also doesn't sit well with the statement that the naval training scheme was aimed at 13 to 16 year olds.

So as you say - tough one,
Peter

[nhclark]

OK folks. I have identified him! 

He went by the name of Edward Cornelius BRIAN. I'm yet to nail down the birth, but he married Agnes O'HEA in the Southwark Registration District in 1906 (St. George R.C. church, Southwark, 16th June 1906).  Not quite sure of who Agnes was and how old, but the marriage certificate will tell that.

As Cornelius BRIAN aged 34 on 26th March 1912 he enlisted in the 3rd Battalion City of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers). No. 1226. Born Westminster, employed Westminster City Council as a sweeper.  Previous service Royal West Kent Regiment (time expired). Served home and then Malta 22/12/14 to 5/10/15. 

He was discharged from his unit on 22nd October 1915 after being sent home from Malta after misconduct. His intended address was shown as 96 Fitzalan Street, Kennington Road, London S.E. (or S.8). Occupation Road Sweeper. Age 38 years and 9 months.

Service papers for the above from FindMyPast.

Next step should be the marriage certificate and name of his father. This may help identify his birth.

Southwark and Bermondsey Recorder, 20th October 1911:

From FindMyPast, British Newspaper Collection

[tankengine888]

1 hour ago, nhclark said:

OK folks. I have identified him! 

He went by the name of Edward Cornelius BRIAN. I'm yet to nail down the birth, but he married Agnes O'HEA in the Southwark Registration District in 1906 (St. George R.C. church, Southwark, 16th June 1906).  Not quite sure of who Agnes was and how old, but the marriage certificate will tell that.

As Cornelius BRIAN aged 34 on 26th March 1912 he enlisted in the 3rd Battalion City of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers). No. 1226. Born Westminster, employed Westminster City Council as a sweeper.  Previous service Royal West Kent Regiment (time expired). Served home and then Malta 22/12/14 to 5/10/15. 

He was discharged from his unit on 22nd October 1915 after being sent home from Malta after misconduct. His intended address was shown as 96 Fitzalan Street, Kennington Road, London S.E. (or S.8). Occupation Road Sweeper. Age 38 years and 9 months.

Service papers for the above from FindMyPast.

Next step should be the marriage certificate and name of his father. This may help identify his birth.

Southwark and Bermondsey Recorder, 20th October 1911:

From FindMyPast, British Newspaper Collection

Smashing job!
slight question
Malta in 1915.. missing 1914-15 star perhaps? or maybe he forfeits that due to misconduct?
Very interesting research, I think you've definitely nailed him.

Zidane.

[nhclark]

I think he served with the Royal West Kents as 4488 Edward POLLARD, enlisted 4th April 1895 at Maidstone.

Service record on FindMyPast. Again poor conduct. Description and name fits. Edward POLLARD crossed out and replaced with Cornelius BRIAN.

Mother Mary.