Gallipoli request Hospital Ship name

[FionaBam]

Hi Zeze

Thank you and that all makes sense. Indeed a very difficult task for those guards and fellow patients. One can only feel for them all trying to keep safe.

Thanks too  for the link , I will have a read .

Cheers

Fiona 

 

[alf mcm]

4 hours ago, FionaBam said:

Been looking again at this war diary and whilst as  @ZeZe advised there unfortunately is no coverage of the Gallipoli period , theres something else that I am curious about 

" 22.11.1917- Disembarked 400 patients and 4 mental guard."

Other diary entries mention " mental cases" being disembarked, and " 3 men as mental guard"

"01.01.1918 Avonmouth. ..,"Mental Guard,I . N.C  O . and 4 men , with 20 mental cases , sent to Netley."

Mental cases are I imagine patients diagnosed as having mental health issues.

But the " mental guard"...? 

Thank you 

Cheers

Fiona 

  Mental patients were usually taken on deck each day for fresh air and exercise. It was normal practice for the patients to wear life vests for this and they were always guarded. There are many reports of mental patients jumping overboard. Some were quickly saved but others were not so lucky. There was usually an enquiry on board ship soon afterwards to find out if anyone was to blame. The number of insane patients sent home for insanity , as opposed to all mental patients, was particulary high on hospital ships from India to the U.K. In 1915 there were 4 such patients, but this rose to 136 in 1918. [Terriers in India' by Peter Stanley, page 219]. This would imlpy an increase in the number of mental guards.

Regards,

Alf McM

[FionaBam]

2 hours ago, alf mcm said:

  Mental patients were usually taken on deck each day for fresh air and exercise. It was normal practice for the patients to wear life vests for this and they were always guarded. There are many reports of mental patients jumping overboard. Some were quickly saved but others were not so lucky. There was usually an enquiry on board ship soon afterwards to find out if anyone was to blame. The number of insane patients sent home for insanity , as opposed to all mental patients, was particulary high on hospital ships from India to the U.K. In 1915 there were 4 such patients, but this rose to 136 in 1918. [Terriers in India' by Peter Stanley, page 219]. This would imlpy an increase in the number of mental guards.

Regards,

Alf McM

Thank you Alf. That's really helpful and  gives me a picture of what was happening. 

Interesting -  I'll  look for  Stanley's book which might cite more research out there regards why India had this effect on servicemen. I worked from 2017 till this year in mental health services in England and this adds to my interest here.

It seems they tried to put in place protective  measures which is highly commendable. Must have been a big challenge to over stretched staff on board. 

Cheers

Fiona 

[alf mcm]

Fiona,

  Peter Stanley's book is very interesting and covers the Territorial soldiers in India, plus Aden, Mesopotamia, Afghan and Siberia. There is not much about the medical side but he does explain why the Territorials were different from the Regular troops they largely replaced. Territorials had a different attitude to discipline and 'spit and polish', and were generally better educated than the regulars. The chapters on what they did with their time off and during mid-day whn it was considerd too hot to go out in the sun. Sightseeing was popular as well as knitting! It was reckoned that some men went insane due to being out in the sun without a helmet. I can highly recommend his book.

  The medical services on Hospital Ships certainly did what they could with the limited resources available.

  With your mental health experience you may be interested in this book. It's another one i found very interesting; https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-Lunatics-Great-Peter-Barham/dp/0300103794/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SGYCRUNTM19N&keywords=FORGOTTEN+LUNATICS+OF+THE+GREAT+WAR&qid=1686516158&s=books&sprefix=forgotten+lunatics+of+the+great+war%2Cstripbooks%2C78&sr=1-1

Regards,

Alf McM

Edited 11 June , 2023 by alf mcm
Book recommendation added

[alf mcm]

ZeZe,

  I have another 'Formosa' nurse;

Staff Nurse Isobel ANDERSON, from 01/09/15 to 1/06/16. Also served on 'Oxfordshire'. WO399/122 Page 12.

Regards,

Alf McM

[FionaBam]

2 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Fiona,

  Peter Stanley's book is very interesting and covers the Territorial soldiers in India, plus Aden, Mesopotamia, Afghan and Siberia. There is not much about the medical side but he does explain why the Territorials were different from the Regular troops they largely replaced. Territorials had a different attitude to discipline and 'spit and polish', and were generally better educated than the regulars. The chapters on what they did with their time off and during mid-day whn it was considerd too hot to go out in the sun. Sightseeing was popular as well as knitting! It was reckoned that some men went insane due to being out in the sun without a helmet. I can highly recommend his book.

  The medical services on Hospital Ships certainly did what they could with the limited resources available.

  With your mental health experience you may be interested in this book. It's another one i found very interesting; https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-Lunatics-Great-Peter-Barham/dp/0300103794/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SGYCRUNTM19N&keywords=FORGOTTEN+LUNATICS+OF+THE+GREAT+WAR&qid=1686516158&s=books&sprefix=forgotten+lunatics+of+the+great+war%2Cstripbooks%2C78&sr=1-1

Regards,

Alf McM

Thank you Alf. I was wondering actually about the heat and its effects. Dreadful. 

Stanley's book is a bit too expensive for me but-  thanks- have just ordered " Forgotten Lunatic". It looks very interesting.

I wonder if Stanley gives talks. Having joined my local WFA branch , perhaps he could give a talk there ?..... 

Cheers

Fiona 

[seaJane]

On 11/06/2023 at 23:40, FionaBam said:

Stanley's book is a bit too expensive for me

Might be worth seeing whether your local public library can arrange an inter-library loan. Some authorities are very good with these, some less so.

[FionaBam]

14 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Might be worth seeing whether your local public library can arrange an inter-library loan. Some authorities are very good with these, some less so.

Thank you SeaJane. I was wondering this too. Not been very lucky with my requests over the last few months though library staff themselves are super.  This is Kent County Council , very cash-strapped and cutting grants to local community centres now . Might be getting my placard out soon .

[seaJane]

Fingers crossed!

[FionaBam]

37 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Fingers crossed!

Thank you!  Hard times ahead , as a community here I mean.

[seaJane]

31 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Thank you!  Hard times ahead , as a community here I mean.

I fear that Somerset Libraries have terminated their subscription to Oxford Reference Online, including the OED and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, both of which are frequently-used research tools of mine, so I feel your pain!

[FionaBam]

8 hours ago, seaJane said:

I fear that Somerset Libraries have terminated their subscription to Oxford Reference Online, including the OED and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, both of which are frequently-used research tools of mine, so I feel your pain!

Oh dear that's a shame . Is it placard time down in Somerset? I actually find myself feeling almost ready for some I think they call it " direct action  " ( wonder what indirect action looks like ? Is that the petitions and local party press releases?) being recently retired and having time for such things.

Good luck !

[seaJane]

32 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

being recently retired and having time for such things.

Snap! Though possibly not the inclination or energy, for my part ... anyway, this is straying from the GW, so better get back to the subject.

Perhaps the University of Greenwich at Chatham has a mechanism for an external reader's ticket to their library? 

[FionaBam]

1 minute ago, seaJane said:

Snap! Though possibly not the inclination or energy, for my part ... anyway, this is straying from the GW, so better get back to the subject.

Perhaps the University of Greenwich at Chatham has a mechanism for an external reader's ticket to their library? 

Ooh! They do indeed and I have got an old readers ticket as I used to live in Chatham! Do you think they would be a better option than my local universities at Canterbury? Thank you .

[seaJane]

I would try both, frankly! Though Chatham might be more in tune with the maritime side.

(My RN GW veteran grandfather lectured on counter-mines at Pembroke IV (Chatham) once he had retired from his second stretch of service during the 1939-1945 unpleasantness.) 

[FionaBam]

3 minutes ago, seaJane said:

I would try both, frankly! Though Chatham might be more in tune with the maritime side.

(My RN GW veteran grandfather lectured on counter-mines at Pembroke IV (Chatham) once he had retired from his second stretch of service during the 1939-1945 unpleasantness.) 

Thanks. Chatham / Uni of Greenwich is also a beautiful setting building wise. Recommend a visit with Chatham dockyard opposite as well. 

Thats interesting.  My maternal side great great grandfather was Chief Engineer and worked from Chatham docks in the 1880s. But retired by the time of the GW.

Cheers

Fiona 

[seaJane]

29 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Recommend a visit with Chatham dockyard opposite as well

Indeed! Have been there a couple of times.

[FionaBam]

23 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Indeed! Have been there a couple of times.

[alf mcm]

Fiona,

   It wasn’t only the servicemen who had mental issues, as these excerpts from the war diary of Maud McCarthy, Matron-in-Chief, show;-

18.12.14
Abbeville
The Nurse who is suffering from some mental derangement to go to England, attended by 2 Nurses in the Asturias her next voyage.

07.01.16.

Miss Fowler, American Sister 22 General mentally unstable. Matron asks whether she should be removed from the Service. Requested that the necessary arrangements should be made for her removal. Both she and Miss B. Duncan were transferred to England from Harvard Unit, since their arrival in France, both mental.

20.02.16
Etaples telephoned to say Miss Saygar, Chicago unit ‘Mental’ to be transferred by Hospital Ship Home – to remain in quarters till being transferred to ship – no accommodation available either at Villa Tino, or 14 General. Assistant Principal Matron provided 2 Specials with Mental experience.

 

11.03.16

Wire from WO for 2 Sisters as escort to take Miss Sagar (Mental) back to America. Instructed 2 Sisters from Chicago unit to proceed WO forthwith, and informed Matron-in-Chief.
 

26.09.16
Saw Miss Kaberry, QAIMNS, before joining to take over from Miss Knowles as A/Matron, and told her what I required of her, and pointed out the importance of many matters – that hers was a peculiar unit, because they took Germans, and also a mental block which was managed by 3 nurses specially trained in mental work.
 

04.01.17
Abbeville
Sick Sisters: Miss E. J. Campbell, CAMC, from 2 Canadian General, who only arrived in France on December 23rd, was admitted to 3 General Hospital on 2.1.17 and evacuated to England the same day – mental.
 

27.01.17
Appeal for help: DMS, 2nd Army, asking for increase of 2 Sisters for 2 Canadian Casualty Clearing Station, in consequence of taking in officers and the work getting extremely heavy. He also informed me that Sister Graham, TFNS, 10 CCS, had suddenly developed mental symptoms and was being sent with 2 Sisters to 10 Stationary Hospital.

 

30.01.17
Miss Graham, TFNS: Received notification that Miss Graham, late of 10 CCS, was being transferred home suffering from mental disorder, and two Sisters were accompanying her.

17.05.17
Sick Sisters 210
Sister McInnes: Received application through DGMS from OC, 13 CCS asking if Sister McInnes, now stationed at 4th London General Hospital in charge of shell shock cases might be appointed Sister in charge, Shell Shock division at 13 CCS. Memo added by DGMS asking if a Nursing Sister specially qualified in the care of neurological cases could be detailed for this duty. Replied that a Sister with experience in mental nursing could be detailed if this would meet the case.
 

24.05.17
Boulogne
To 8 Stationary Hospital – saw the A/Matron, Miss Kaberry, and the CO. Visited the Sisters’ quarters – no extra accommodation yet put up – Sisters very crowded. This service has been requisitioned. Extra nurses were required for the mental hut (E. Masterton, S/Nurse instructed to join).
 

29.05.17
Shell Shock Division, 41 Stationary Hospital: Reported to DGMS that Miss K. Cameron, TFNS, had been instructed to proceed to 41 Stationary Hospital as Sister in charge of the Shell Shock Division. This lady had had three years’ mental training at Blackburn Asylum, and altogether 6 years’ experience in mental nursing.

21.09.17
Boulogne
Mental Division: Then I went to the Mental Division. It is supposed to be equipped for 64 beds. At the time of the visit there were 77 patients, and there have been as many as 101 in. When there are over 64 patients, beds have to be made up on the floor for the extra cases. The patients are kept in from a few days to as much as five months, and there is always a long delay with prisoners. Their Staff is a Sister in Charge and one Staff Nurse on day, and one Sister on night duty, with a Corporal and five orderlies on day and five on night. There is a Medical Officer in charge. The Division is beautifully managed, and the place if full of lovely flowers, fern boxes, and birds. Miss Macaulay, the Sister in Charge, is undecided whether to stay on or whether to return to her civil employment, partly because she does not wish to do night duty, and partly because she thinks that as she has charge of such a very important division she ought not to be inspected by the Matron or the Officer in Command.

17.01.18
Sister Graham, TFNS: Forwarded to Matron-in-Chief, TFNS correspondence received from Sister Graham, TFNS who had been transferred to the United Kingdom on 30.1.17, suffering from Delusional Insanity.

  The service records of the nurses mentioned should give details of their mental conditions. They can be downloaded free from The National Archives. Can't look them out just now as just finishing lunch break!

Regards,

Alf McM

 

[seaJane]

This is absolutely fascinating, Alf - thanks!

sJ

[FionaBam]

36 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Fiona,

   It wasn’t only the servicemen who had mental issues, as these excerpts from the war diary of Maud McCarthy, Matron-in-Chief, show;-

18.12.14
Abbeville
The Nurse who is suffering from some mental derangement to go to England, attended by 2 Nurses in the Asturias her next voyage.

07.01.16.

Miss Fowler, American Sister 22 General mentally unstable. Matron asks whether she should be removed from the Service. Requested that the necessary arrangements should be made for her removal. Both she and Miss B. Duncan were transferred to England from Harvard Unit, since their arrival in France, both mental.

20.02.16
Etaples telephoned to say Miss Saygar, Chicago unit ‘Mental’ to be transferred by Hospital Ship Home – to remain in quarters till being transferred to ship – no accommodation available either at Villa Tino, or 14 General. Assistant Principal Matron provided 2 Specials with Mental experience.

 

11.03.16

Wire from WO for 2 Sisters as escort to take Miss Sagar (Mental) back to America. Instructed 2 Sisters from Chicago unit to proceed WO forthwith, and informed Matron-in-Chief.
 

26.09.16
Saw Miss Kaberry, QAIMNS, before joining to take over from Miss Knowles as A/Matron, and told her what I required of her, and pointed out the importance of many matters – that hers was a peculiar unit, because they took Germans, and also a mental block which was managed by 3 nurses specially trained in mental work.
 

04.01.17
Abbeville
Sick Sisters: Miss E. J. Campbell, CAMC, from 2 Canadian General, who only arrived in France on December 23rd, was admitted to 3 General Hospital on 2.1.17 and evacuated to England the same day – mental.
 

27.01.17
Appeal for help: DMS, 2nd Army, asking for increase of 2 Sisters for 2 Canadian Casualty Clearing Station, in consequence of taking in officers and the work getting extremely heavy. He also informed me that Sister Graham, TFNS, 10 CCS, had suddenly developed mental symptoms and was being sent with 2 Sisters to 10 Stationary Hospital.

 

30.01.17
Miss Graham, TFNS: Received notification that Miss Graham, late of 10 CCS, was being transferred home suffering from mental disorder, and two Sisters were accompanying her.

17.05.17
Sick Sisters 210
Sister McInnes: Received application through DGMS from OC, 13 CCS asking if Sister McInnes, now stationed at 4th London General Hospital in charge of shell shock cases might be appointed Sister in charge, Shell Shock division at 13 CCS. Memo added by DGMS asking if a Nursing Sister specially qualified in the care of neurological cases could be detailed for this duty. Replied that a Sister with experience in mental nursing could be detailed if this would meet the case.
 

24.05.17
Boulogne
To 8 Stationary Hospital – saw the A/Matron, Miss Kaberry, and the CO. Visited the Sisters’ quarters – no extra accommodation yet put up – Sisters very crowded. This service has been requisitioned. Extra nurses were required for the mental hut (E. Masterton, S/Nurse instructed to join).
 

29.05.17
Shell Shock Division, 41 Stationary Hospital: Reported to DGMS that Miss K. Cameron, TFNS, had been instructed to proceed to 41 Stationary Hospital as Sister in charge of the Shell Shock Division. This lady had had three years’ mental training at Blackburn Asylum, and altogether 6 years’ experience in mental nursing.

21.09.17
Boulogne
Mental Division: Then I went to the Mental Division. It is supposed to be equipped for 64 beds. At the time of the visit there were 77 patients, and there have been as many as 101 in. When there are over 64 patients, beds have to be made up on the floor for the extra cases. The patients are kept in from a few days to as much as five months, and there is always a long delay with prisoners. Their Staff is a Sister in Charge and one Staff Nurse on day, and one Sister on night duty, with a Corporal and five orderlies on day and five on night. There is a Medical Officer in charge. The Division is beautifully managed, and the place if full of lovely flowers, fern boxes, and birds. Miss Macaulay, the Sister in Charge, is undecided whether to stay on or whether to return to her civil employment, partly because she does not wish to do night duty, and partly because she thinks that as she has charge of such a very important division she ought not to be inspected by the Matron or the Officer in Command.

17.01.18
Sister Graham, TFNS: Forwarded to Matron-in-Chief, TFNS correspondence received from Sister Graham, TFNS who had been transferred to the United Kingdom on 30.1.17, suffering from Delusional Insanity.

  The service records of the nurses mentioned should give details of their mental conditions. They can be downloaded free from The National Archives. Can't look them out just now as just finishing lunch break!

Regards,

Alf McM

 

Thank you very much Alf . Very illuminating.  You did all that in your lunch break?! Wow!

Cheers 

Fiona 

[alf mcm]

Thanks Fiona,

  I only had to copy and paste bits from a transcription of Maud McCarthy's war diary made by the late Sue Light a few years ago.

Regards,

Alf McM

[FionaBam]

47 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Thanks Fiona,

  I only had to copy and paste bits from a transcription of Maud McCarthy's war diary made by the late Sue Light a few years ago.

Regards,

Alf McM

Well thank you for your trouble. I saw Sue Light mentioned  and praised elsewhere on the forum. Sue did a very  fine job .

Cheers

Fiona 

[alf mcm]

The only nurse I have found records for is Canadian Nursing Sister Ella Jean CAMPBELL. Her records explain her medical condition;- - Library and Archives Canada (bac-lac.gc.ca)

Regards,

Alf McM

[FionaBam]

10 hours ago, alf mcm said:

The only nurse I have found records for is Canadian Nursing Sister Ella Jean CAMPBELL. Her records explain her medical condition;- - Library and Archives Canada (bac-lac.gc.ca)

Regards,

Alf McM

Thank you Alf. The link works for me but then I can only see the front page of her personnel file . Am I missing where to click ? 

The Peter Barham book arrived today and looks excellent. I await another title  by him . Thanks again for that .

Cheers

Fiona