RFA - returning to the Western Front after injury and treatment?

[DStebbings]

Good evening,

I have information highlighting a soldier I am researching who served in THE ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY (170th Brigade) was injured on the 9th November 1916 and was treated at Durris Auxiliary Red Cross Hospital (Kirton Hall Hospital), near Aberdeen, Scotland. He was there until mid-January 1917.

At the time of treatment he is shown as rank GUNNER and then unfortunately the trail goes a little bit cold.

There is no evidence of a disability pension nor discharge on medical grounds etc. and from what I know he served for the remainder of the War before returning home and back to civilian life. My grandmother (his daughter) never disclosed to me any serious or obvious lasting injury which prevented work (he went back to the railways post-war). 

At the end of the war however he held the appointment of LANCE-BOMBARDIER or BOMBARDIER.

 

And as such this is my question..........

Would this 'promotion' / 'appointment' from Gunner to Lance-Bombardier suggest that he returned to his unit or returned to the RFA in order to then ascertain this?

I am presuming that had he not returned to action or had he been moved to another unit (e.g. Labour Corp etc.) he would not have been granted this LANCE-BOMBARDIER status and because he was RFA trained he would join a similar unit if not his original one? 

I will never know for certain but just wanted to see what the general opinion would be on this?

 

Secondly, and another general question just for my own interest....

If following treatment he then resumed ready and fit for duty - what would the practical process have been for getting back to his unit? would they wait until a number of fit/able RFA soldiers were heading back to France and join them on a boat and 'peel off' to his unit or how was all that organized and supervised?

 

Thank You.

[PRC]

11 minutes ago, DStebbings said:

At the end of the war however he held the appointment of LANCE-BOMBARDIER or BOMBARDIER.

Hi,

Where does this information come from - it's not clear from the rest of your post whether there are surviving service records.
It may be that there are service records but the pages that remain you don't think answer your questions, but I just wanted to make sure.

A name and service number would probably help as the artillery afficianado's may be aware of other sources specific to your great grandfather.

I'm not confident enough about the Artillery to be entirely sure but as a general rule:-

Lance Ranks were unit specific - when a man left he would revert to his substantive rank, in this case Gunner. It was up to his new unit whether they made him back to the Lance Rank. Most were unpaid but there were a few paid positions I believe on the strength of each unit.

When he was medically evacuated to the UK he didn't "leave" the Royal Field Artillery. He would be taken off the strength of the unit he was serving with, (allowing them to backfill), and posted on to the strength of a Home Depot for pay, discipline and administration purposes while he was receiving hospital in-treatment and subsequently convalescing. When deemed fit enough he'd report to the Depot, from where he'd be posted to one of the Reserve Brigades in the UK for refresher training, mainly physical, and assessed for his fitness for further forward area \ rear area or UK only service.

By the time you are talking of him being phyically fit again, (1917), it would be sheer luck if he ended back with his original unit. He would most likely go out as part of a general draft to an Artillery Base Depot in Theatre, and from there it's likely the draft would be broken up and despatched to units as the need arose for the units losses to be made good.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[RobertBr]

My Gunner Grandfather's route back after being gassed was:

• Gassed on Thursday.
• In hospital in France Friday.
• In hospital in Warrington Monday. I suspect for medical appraisal and treatment plan
• Moved to a Coastal hospital a week latter.
• 5 weeks latter sent to RAOD Ripon 11 Battery. Medical classification B-2
• Remained there until reclassified A-1
• A week latter sent to Charton Park (London) where he stayed for 5 weeks befiore returning with a draft to France and then on (alone ?) to his original unit.

 I have his personal diary form the time and it indicates that when in hospital he received his pay by post from Blackheath (London).

One thing this does highlight is that the RA were involved  throughout his treatment.

It would be quite an assumption that your soldiers recovery path was the same, and he also reached A-1,  however I hope this provides another view.

Bob

[DStebbings]

Thank You both for the informative replies.

I had originally gathered my own information from bits of family history documents, photos and from 'snippets of stories' I remember from family members now no longer with us. 

Chris at 'fourteen eighteen' completed a comprehensive report for me which filled in many gaps but unfortunately (as he pointed out) following his medical treatment the trail runs cold. 

So that led me thinking about what the 'norm' would be for someone who was briefly treated back in the UK for what appears to have been a temporary injury? Perhaps a return back to the front in 1917 onwards?

I then made an assumption that he 'must have returned' as I see documentation including a 'thank you' postcard from the local parish addressing him as Lance-Bombardier. So I presumed he must achieved this post 1917 as I am not sighted on anything which addresses him as this prior to his injury ............

Thanks to the replies I can see that he may well have held this 'unit specific' rank in anycase - and was just reverted back to gunner in hospital for admin reasons. (so my presumption may be inaccurate and I'm no further on).

I haven't checked any local libraries, newspaper achieves as of yet - I guess they may have reported the injury but I presume unlikely the details of any return to service. 

I may well never know the answer, but that's Ok, I just wanted to make sure I have investigated everything available.

John Ernest RAMSBOTTOM L/18209 (from Bolton, Lancashire) (Royal Field Artillery, 170th Brigade 'C' Battery) 

- any advice on areas (on or offline) to explore for photos of the brigade/battery in general would also be most welcomed.

Thanks All, Dave

 

Edited 18 December , 2022 by DStebbings

[charlie962]

9 minutes ago, DStebbings said:

John Ernest RAMSBOTTOM L/17809 (from Bolton, Lancashire) (Royal Field Artillery, 170th Brigade 'C' Battery) 

Do you mean 18209?.

Bolton Gunners are a particular interest of @brianmorris547

[PRC]

23 minutes ago, DStebbings said:

I then made an assumption that he 'must have returned' as I see documentation including a 'thank you' postcard from the local parish addressing him as Lance-Bombardier. So I presumed he must achieved this post 1917 as I am not sighted on anything which addresses him as this prior to his injury ............

Thanks to the replies I can see that he may well have held this 'unit specific' rank in anycase - and was just reverted back to gunner in hospital for admin reasons. (so my presumption may be inaccurate and I'm no further on).

The few instances I've come across of such thank-you's have all been post-war.

If his promotion to Lance-Corporal was with the last unit(s) he served with and they were a home service unit only then won't be referenced on his medal record.

And if he was promoted Lance-Corporal post 11th November 1918, even if he was abroad, this wouldn't normally be referenced on his medal records. Exceptions might be men who went on to serve in Russia, or qualified for the Indian General Service Medal with a clasp for one or more of the conflicts in the immediate post-Great War period - Afghanistan, Waziristan, North West Frontier and Iraq spring to mind.

Have you looked for him on the Absent Voters Lisr for 1918 & 1919, (if they exist), as there is a possibility that his unit might be given there.

Cheers,
Peter

[DStebbings]

@charlie962 - Good spot & yes - amended Thank You.

09/11/1916 - John is named in the brigades war diary (in a list at the end of the month) as being wounded on this date. The diary refers to John by the rank of Gunner as did the official casualty list on 14/12/1916. (again is this normal or would the brigade diary have been more likely to refer as L.Bombardier' if he had this rank at the time?).

December 1916 - January 1917 - a local newspaper reports a patient of the same name and rank at Durris Auxiliary Red Cross Hospital near Aberdeen. John ceased to appear after 18/01/1917.

There is no Silver War Badge and no evidence of a disability pension (although he did have a cane in later life).

I have his three standard campaign medals and some photographs which I will try to attach for interest.

(There is a general  'upper body' photo which I have used in company with others to identify John as the soldier 2nd row middle holding rifle up - behind one of the boxers. The postcard was from the local church with the Bombardier inscription). I have also found a really interesting photograph online of the C-Battery of the 170th Brigade which I am trying to locate in Lytham in order to obtain a copy as he may well be shown on that (I hope). 

*To note - just to confuse matters he was always known as his middle name Ernest hence the inscription on the postcard.  

Edited 18 December , 2022 by DStebbings

[charlie962]

This scrap indexed by Findmypast is partII Orders of 170Bde and shows he was sick, influenza, 27/4/16. A Gunner, C/170 at the time.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record

[DStebbings]

50 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

This scrap indexed by Findmypast is partII Orders of 170Bde and shows he was sick, influenza, 27/4/16. A Gunner, C/170 at the time.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record

Ah yes I had seen that (27th April '16) and its with my bundle of research thus far - it appears this was only a very short absence and it appears he went back to his battery.

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, DStebbings said:

had seen that

Good. One never knows.

[DStebbings]

4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Good. One never knows.

Absolutely, there are so many snippets of information scattered around that it is quite the project to collate it all together. I really appreciate the help and interest with this one - I guess sometimes the answers to some questions can unfortunately now never be known. I just wish I had questioned my grandmother a little more when she was with us  

but imagine how many people say similar.

[charlie962]

Your older thread here had the doc I linked and a response from Brian Morris.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/288000-42nd-division-east-lancashire-royal-field-artillery-–-bolton/

Edited 18 December , 2022 by charlie962

[DStebbings]

7 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Your older thread here had the doc I linked and a response from Brian Morris.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/288000-42nd-division-east-lancashire-royal-field-artillery-–-bolton/

Yes that's the one I posted when I first joined I think  - I had two great-grandfathers to research and had elements of both mixed up and wrong 'division' numbers and all sorts of confusion. (it gave me a right headache at one point!)

I've managed to thankfully develop the information on both soldiers separately now and make sense out of most of it. Its just the few remaining gaps and general understanding I need to develop as much as I can.   

@brianmorris547 - From your experience would the Bolton Library or BEN hold any independent detail on the 9th November 1916 injury would you have thought? I am not sure what detail they would go into and whether they would hold anything further about John at the end of the war when he returned home?  

[brianmorris547]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Your older thread here had the doc I linked and a response from Brian Morris.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/288000-42nd-division-east-lancashire-royal-field-artillery-–-bolton/

Charlie

I had meant to follow this up but the pandemic got in the way. I will be in Bolton Library on Tuesday I hope so will see what I can find.

Brian

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

but the pandemic got in the way.

What pandemic? ! ? 

The version of the War Diary for 170th Bde RFA on Ogilby Muster is exceptionally long. 

https://www.theogilbymuster.com/search/results#/?query="170th brigade"&page=1&type=flex&sort=Regimental_Collection asc&filterBy=Regimental_Collection,"Royal Artillery Museum"&spellCheck=true

Edited 18 December , 2022 by charlie962
Added words War Diary.

[brianmorris547]

Charlie

I've just read the WD of 170 Brigade on Ancestry. One of the other named wounded in November 1916, 18334,  is named on this partial list which I have just posted on Partial Casualty Lists in Soldiers. The records of 79358 J Evans RE and 155952 G Shepherd RE confirm that it dates to November 1916. 

Brian

[brianmorris547]

Dave

Drawn a blank at Bolton Library I'm afraid. No record in the Bolton papers of Ernest enlisting into the County Palatine RA at Bolton Town Hall in 1915. No mention of his wound in 1916. The Historian has no record of him on his WW1 database.

Brian

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

blank at Bolton Library

Suprising.

[DStebbings]

@brianmorris547 - Brian I am extremely grateful for you checking this out, it is very much appreciated.

From your personal knowledge could John (Ernest) have enlisted at a neighboring town? I know he lived in a farm house up in Rivington at the 1911 census, and he was an apprentice at Horwich Loco-Works - could he have signed up at Horwich Town Hall for example? and do you know if they hold their own records or whether these would have been migrated over to Bolton Town Hall when it became part of the Metropolitan borough in 1974? Just a thought. 

[brianmorris547]

Dave

There was a recruiting office in Horwich, see this example from the WO 363 of Harry Williams 14363 Loyal North Lancs who enlisted there on 02/09/1914. There is a little local history room in Horwich library and I will be passing there tomorrow. I will make some enquiries. I will ask the historian at Bolton in the New Year.

Brian

[David26]

Dave,

Just to pick up from your earlier question, if an RFA man was evacuated and struck off the strength of his brigade - especially if he was sent back to the UK - it was not very common for him to be posted back to the same brigade. It did happen, of course, but it was the exception. 

It seems as if, once they were fit and posted back as a group of men to France, after a spell at the RFA Base Depot they would be posted to whichever brigades appeared in direst need of replacements (or were simply next in turn). 

So, unless you can find something linking him still to 170 Brigade after his return to France in 1917, I'd personally be wary of assuming he was in that unit. 

It's one if the frustrations (or 'challenges') of trying to follow RFA men. 

Wishing you all the best in your searches. 

David.

[AndrewSid]

I would echo what David said in that as he was not discharged or transferred to another regiment ie Labour Corps he continued his service with the RFA.  Whether that was home establishment or to France may never be known without a lucky find.

With regard to his initial  deployment to Egypt I noticed there were quite a few men with the same arrival date (25 Dec) on his star roll.  Have you searched through them for service or pension records as they may shed light on his initial deployment route and timings. 
 

Andy 

[brianmorris547]

Dave

Horwich Library has the Horwich Chronicle 1914 and 1915 on fiche. I remember that I looked at it some years ago. It was a weekly paper. I will try and go again to read it but it might not be before the New Year.

Brian

EDIT: I went today. There was recruiting in the Drill Hall in Longworth St, Horwich in 1914 but the recruits are not named. There was a mention in 1915 that recruits were wanted for the CPRA but later it only named a few men from Horwich who had enlisted in Bolton. There was no section of the paper that covered Rivington, instead it featured some areas of Wigan like Aspull. The library has the Horwich Chronicle from 1914 to March 1916.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by brianmorris547
typo

[DStebbings]

@brianmorris547 - once again Thank You! I am going to Lytham/St. Annes over the next couple of months to visit the Heritage Centre and the old Drill Hall there, to learn a bit more about the RFA training undertaken. I have received a few more general photographs from the volunteers at the centre and will have a good search once I am there - just to increase my general understanding as much as anything else. I have also invested in an RFA book and have another on the way.

@AndrewSid - I have really good coverage of his initial deployments to Egypt and then onto France. It is just after the injury that his trail ran cold. But that is a good shout to parallel research what exists with a few of his colleagues. Maybe those who were injured at the same time? - did they go back to the front? and maybe sadly didn't then come home after a ensuing battle for example?  (it certainly gives another angle of the research).

 

@David26 - The only thing I have recently noticed is that in the 'War Diary' and Injuries recorded those who were Bombardier were recorded as such (BDR). John was shown as an injured gunner (GR) on the same page and a number were DR (presume Drivers?). I know at the end of the war he was L.BDR or BDR.

With that in mind, and looking at  @PRC helpful insight (i.e. "if his promotion to Lance-Corporal was with the last unit(s) he served with and they were a home service unit only then won't be referenced on his medal record") I am thinking that perhaps this was obtained mid-1917 onwards as his medal records do reference the Bdr rank?

Also, when reviewing the meals and various bits and pieces I have inherited there are nothing to suggest a movement to another unit (eg. Labour as no badges etc which I do have with my other G.Grandfathers bundle). 

I will likely never know with surety, unless as people have rightly said a 'lucky find' crops up - But that makes it all the more intriguing in a way - I am heading over to the Western Front to do a battlefield tour this summer with my teenage daughter - it will add another dimension wondering whether he was at the various places we will visit. 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

There is a little bit about the CPRA in May 1915 at St Annes on this site.

https://amounderness.co.uk/r.f.a._st.annes_may_1915.html

Brian