42nd Division East Lancashire. Royal Field Artillery – BOLTON.

[DStebbings]

Good morning,

This is my first post to the forum so my apologies if this is in the wrong section. I have followed some threads and can see some of you are very local to me and have an interest in the RFA so I am hopeful I am in the right place 😊

I have relatively recently started to research my family tree and I am trying to make sense of the WW1 activities of both my Great Grandfathers and whether they potentially served together or knew one another (before their future offspring met) and who the attached pictures may show. I have included the details and numbers on the records I have been able to obtain so far to assist:

 

John E Ramsbottom (known as Ernest) 1892-1965.

Show as being in the RFA L/18209 Gnr.

Shown as receiving the 1914-15 Star, British and Victory medals.

Qualifying date 25/12/1915 – Theatre (3) Egypt.

Some of the numbers I have found: RFA/332/B(?) 46572

15 Star RFA/1AB 1758.

Am I along the right lines in thinking John would have volunteered during the ‘call to arms’ in Bolton and been with the 332 Brigade? Initially to Egypt and then onwards to the France & Belgium?

Are there any Diaries, books which would cover this specific Brigade or its movements if so?

 

Arthur John Stebbings 1892-1962.

I have found a ‘short service’ record which appears to have the words East Lancs crossed out and the word Labour written (Labour Corp?).

Some of the information on his records which I am trying to make sense of:

WO329 company, Reg Number 219510. A 19437 number is also written.

He also received the same 3 x medals. They are shown as being from the East Lancs R.

So would this have been a labour unit attached to the East Lancs? I’m confused.

In 1919 at the end of the war it shows he was transferred to the reserves.

 

From memory, my grandma used to tell me her father (John Ramsbottom) used to ride horses in the war in the cavalry (I was very young so I may have got this mixed up). She said he talked very little of his time in WW1 upon his return and suggested he was reluctant to do so.

I am also aware that she said her father in law (Arthur John Stebbings), walked with a limp as he had shrapnel or some injury in his leg which remained – could this be the reason for joining the Labour corp. (perhaps a pre-existing injury or something suffered whilst serving or when training?)

The below picture came with bits and bobs (badges etc) from both men – but unfortunately these were somewhat mixed up. So I have no idea of knowing who is who but hope someone may see some clues to help me - I'm guessing Arthur in in one and John the other? I am looking forward to Bolton library opening up so I can do some more research – if anyone has any other places they recommend for me or online resources I would be most grateful.

Many Thanks in advance,

Dave (& my daughter Poppy)

[David Porter]

Welcome to the Forum Dave,

 

John Ramsbottom enlisted in 170th (2nd County Palatine) Brigade RFA in May 1915. The L prefix denotes a locally raised unit, which in this case covered areas of Manchester, Burnley, Blackburn and Rochdale so could easily include Bolton. The 332 is just a Medal Roll reference. The majority of 170th Brigade RFA arrived in Egypt on December 22, 1915, so it will be interesting to find others with a date three days later. They didn't stay in Egypt long and were called to France in March 1916. You need to follow 31st Division on the Longlongtrail website using this link - https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/31st-division/

[brianmorris547]

Dave

I like the boxing gloves. The men wearing tunics have shoulder badges. Could you possibly zoom in on the L/Bdr on the far right. 

From 25/11/1914 to 25/11/1915 the Bolton Evening News had a daily column called "Rally to the Flag". It named the previous days recruits at the Town Hall. It gave their addresses and the Unit into which they had enlisted. There were two Artillery Units recruiting in Bolton from March 1915. The Reserve Brigades of 3 East Lancs Brigade RFA (TF) (The Bolton Artillery), which were later known as 2/3 ELB and 3/3 ELB. At the same time the locally raised County Palatine RFA and CPRE were being raised by Lord Derby and the Manchester Recruiting Committee respectively. A Battery of the CPRA was to be raised in a number of Lancashire towns, These were to be known as Comrade's Batteries. Bolton's Battery was originally identified in the BEN as D/148 Brigade. I have no doubt that John will be named in Rally to the Flag under Comrade's Battery or The New Battery. I have copies of the BEN to show all the names in Rally to the Flag for the Bolton Artillery and can confirm that John is not one of them. As David says that number L/18209 was for the CPRA. John would have done his basic training at St Annes on Sea.

Re the numbers 332/B 46572 on his Medal Card. Look at the page in the Medal Rolls (Victory Medal) on which John is named. In the top right is the number 46572 and if you go to the start of the Roll (p 3 Ancestry) you will see the ref RFA 332/B. They are just reference numbers. Confusing because the Reserve Brigades of the Bolton Artillery were later renamed 332 Brigade.

Arthur John Stebbings - WO 363 (Ste 212812/247635 Ancestry Filmstrip ref) He enlisted into the Lancs Fusiliers at Horwich on 01/09/1914 and was sent to Bury. On 06/03/1915 he was transferred to the East Lancs Regt as a Private. His papers show that he served in the BEF from 08/04/1915 to 11/05/1916. His 1914-15 Medal Roll (under his Labour Corps number) shows that he served in 2 Bn East Lancs. You can find the WD for 2 Bn East Lancs Regt on Ancestry under Various (Infantry Brigades - 8 Div) - Piece 1719. It starts on p 159. Other Ranks are not named but it is likely that he was injured or wounded, evacuated to the UK and transferred to the Labour Corps. 

See you in Bolton Library when it reopens. I'll be wearing a mask.

Brian

Edited 17 January , 2021 by brianmorris547
typo

[David Porter]

As well as service records, Findmypast have indexed stray documents - like this copy of Part II Orders.

J. E. Ramsbottom can be seen half way down in Hospital Admissions and was in "C" Battery, 170th Brigade RFA.

 

 

Image courtesy of Findmypast

[DStebbings]

Thank You Everyone.

This is wonderful stuff for me to work from, no doubt saved me lots of time and prevented me looking in the wrong direction - which it seems I was a little!!

It may take me sometime to get used to the relevant and non-relevant numbers on the medal records and the like but I am really enjoying the research so far and have further relatives I haven't even scratched the surface with who I know served 

I am finding the main challenge reading some of the handwriting and abbreviations but I have made sense of most of it and I am aware many of the records have been lost in the later Blitz etc. 

 

I am now thinking the lower picture is likely Arthur.

The top picture I need to do some work on I think. I 'think' the uniforms suggest RFA? but it has dawned on me this afternoon that Arthur had a younger brother who the picture could in theory related to.

 

I had no idea that both would have seen active service in France.

A very sobering thought whilst I have been watching some of the YouTube clips just now.

I look forward to being involved with the Forum.

 

I have inherited a treasure chest of letters, pictures and artifacts from my Great Aunt (Arthurs niece). I will be carefully going through it this week.

If anyone here has an interest in the Pals/battalions local to Bolton (Horwich) or even the local history in general I should have some interesting items amongst the boxes so I will post anything of obvious WW1 interest where I can.

Thanks Again.

Dave 
 

 

[brianmorris547]

Dave

We look forward to seeing them. The top picture is RFA. The shoulder badge, if you can zoom in, might help with identification.

The local Infantry Bn for Bolton was 5 Bn Loyal North Lancs. This was part of the Territorial Force. In 1915 further Bns which became known as 2/5 and 4/5 LNL were recruited in Bolton. In Rally to the Flag the recruits to 5 LNL were shown as enlisting into the Pals Battalion. It was not an official Pals Bn of course, being TF, but it was known locally as such.

Brian

[DStebbings]

Brian / Dave (or anyone else who may be able to help).

 

I have gone away and done some digging online, looking at old family photographs and just wanted to check the following before I organize my findings, tally up the photographs and show as a nice presentation for my father (Arthurs grandson):

 

Arthur John Stebbings 1892-1962.

Known as 'Jack'. Moved from Norfolk to Horwich, Bolton in his late teens and worked at a local Bleachworks.

 

Enlisted into the Lancs. Fusiliers at Horwich (01/09/1914) following the announcement of Britain entering the War the month prior.

Initially sent to Bury for training before 06/03/1915 transferring to the East Lancs. Regt as a Private. (*** are there any specific reasons why he may have moved from the Lancs. fusiliers to the East Lancs.??)

He served in France between 08/04/1915 - 11/05/1916. (*** am I right in thinking that he would have been involved in the Battle of Aubers Ridge? I note the 2nd Bn East Lancs. were there as part of the 8th Division?***)

I have located a War Diary for the 2nd Bn East Lancs. and I just want the reassurance I am on the right lines

 

I note his injury was to his ankle and he received treatment back in the U.K. (Hosp Manchester)  (my father says he always walked with a limp and the belief was that he had shrapnel somewhere although the medical records if I am reading correctly suggest a bad twist which consistently worsened and I note "20%" injury, unless he also received a later injury on top of this when in the Labour Corp?

If I am reading correctly he is shown as home 12.05.16 - 28.07.1917.

 

It now becomes difficult to understand unfortunately.

I am thinking this is when he may have re-joined into Labour Co?

 

28.07.1917 - 07.03.1918 - I cannot read where he is posted although it appears from some of the postcards I have found that he may have been in France or Belgium. (Can anyone please help me with this or advise how I would find out? What duties would he have undertaken? is there anyway of me locating exactly where he was - I note BEF typed post .06.17 - could he have rejoined his mates in the 2nd to assist with Labour duties?)

 

08.03.1918 - 05.04.1918 - cannot read

19.06.1918 - 01.10.1918 - Furlough UK.

 

05.04.19 - reserve? discharged?

19.11.19 - Docs Chelsea

 

There then appears to be a note on a separate page next to wounded: " 12 BH Rouen (this will not be correct but I cant make out the handwriting).

There is also something under section 7 gallant conduct but again I cannot make this out can anyone help? 

 

It is all on ancestry if anyone has access I would be most grateful.

From 21281 (stebbings on film strip on ancestry).

 

Arthur (Jack) went home to work back in Horwich Bleachworks and volunteer at Horwich Golf club for years and I have a number of embroidered letters he posted to his 'sweetheart' (my G.Gran - who he married in 1916). I also have photographs of him in uniform with other soldiers - it would be amazing to understand the full picture.

I believe he was a fantastic gent.

 

*I have also posted this as a new posting with the correct regiment and Division highlighted

 

 

Dave