8943 Pt. H.W Douch RAMC

[Evan]

I am researching the military history of my grandfather Horace William0

DOUCH. I have his medals card and believe he served in the 14th General Hospital. He was enlisted from 17AUG14 to 01APR19 (first to last bang as he used to say). I have tried Kew for his records but these were lost during the blitz like so many others. If anybody could point me to a source of information regarding this unit and/or Horace that would be greatly appreciated.

[charlie962]

Evan, welcome.

In the absence of a surviving service record you are helped by his Medal Index card giving the unit he went to France with, as you say 14 General Hospital. 

If you look at the medal roll for the 1914 Star on Ancestry 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41803_636897_11321-00223?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=63c524b5eb6239f261f44f3d492782b5&pId=2232416

he is amongst a group of RAMC men all landing the same day in France 17/10/14. 12 pages. You could pass the whole winter researching the fate of this draft and some of these men will have surviving records from which you can draw parallels. Beware, we don't know how long Douch remained with 14GH, or do you? One of his colleagues may even have left an account somewhere.

The War Diaries for 14 GH are here at National Archives, free to download if you register. They do sometimes mention changes in staff. 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Wo95+"14+general+hospital"&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=

Thats to get you going, I trust. 

Charlie

Edited 11 December , 2022 by charlie962
Link to Ancestry roll

[charlie962]

Findmypast have indexed 3 scraps of paper found in other men's files. He clearly did not remain with 14GH.

One tells us that he was with the 8th Field Ambulance and had been slightly gassed in May 1917.

He was admitted 20 General Hospital, Dannes Camiers on 7/5/17.

Edited 11 December , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Another scrap tells us he was still 14GH on 15th May 1915 when admitted with a slight sprained ankle.

[charlie962]

The third scrap is in fact a copy of the first one I've noted above.

So sometime between May 1915 and May 1917 he changed unit.

The Diary for 8th Field Ambulance is here.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352057

[charlie962]

His marriage 1/12/17 at Fulham merely says Pte, HM Forces. 

I see there are numerous trees on Ancestry. One may be yours? Have you tried trawling through the others for clues?

Charlie

Edited 11 December , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

As well as the Silver War Badge Roll, which I think you've already seen to get his enlistment and discharge dates (note discharged for sickness), there is a pension card but apart from giving his Westminster address it provides no further clues on his military service.

[charlie962]

Just to colour in those early days in 14GH. Here's a cautionary tale.

This man, HE Colley 10157, is on same 14 Star roll as Douch, as is FJ Mills 19289.

Courtesy Findmypast newspapers, Kingston Times 16/1/15.

Edited 11 December , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

And a little alien scare, a man with a German name. I wonder where he ended up. He's not on the 14 Star roll that I could see either as Taylor or Schneider. 

Findmypast newspapers, Manchester Evening News 1/12/14. (More or less the same appears in other papers)

[charlie962]

Extract from The Nuneaton Observer, 4/6/15 via Findmypast newspapers

[charlie962]

A little request from Pte F Goss 383, also on same 14 Star roll. (The People 20/6/15 via Findmypast newspapers) 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

As well as the Silver War Badge Roll, which I think you've already seen to get his enlistment and discharge dates (note discharged for sickness), there is a pension card but apart from giving his Westminster address it provides no further clues on his military service.

The disability pension card does however offer a little more about his physical condition on discharge, 1-4-19.

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

8/3 pw was the rate for 30% degree of disability for a Class V soldier [Incl. Privates] = Would be interesting to know about his disability(ies) in more detail since the MoP guide to rating disability levels does not really offer much regarding disease(s)/sickness(es) [concentrating instead mainly on missing body parts!]

M

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

does however offer a little more about his physical condition

Good interpretation!

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Good interpretation!

But only part of the story I am afraid = I hope the OP/Evan can offer something about his GF's disability(ies) [to help further educate us about those degrees of disability ratings]

The card also challenges me because of later references and with later dated annotations from 22.8.23 and 3.11.27 and yet I have not found any further Card(s) or a Pension Ledger page for after 20-4-19. ???

The central reference of 8507/OS/M may possibly also be of interest as perhaps may reflect a later overseas claim [my current interpretation of the OS reference] 

M

Edited 11 December , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[charlie962]

A photo of 14 General Hospital Hotel and Casino from this interesting site, The Fairest Force. http://www.fairestforce.co.uk/36.html

Beware when searching. Do not confuse with 14 Stationary Hospital. I hope I haven't!😁

And here from FindmyPast newspapers, Liverpool Daily Post 10/11/14, is a description of their arrival.

[charlie962]

The hotel and casino were destroyed 1939/45 I believe. Here is another illustration from the seafront, taken from this site.

https://histopale.net/les-archives/wimereux/le-casino/

[charlie962]

Over to you Evan for reflection! 

I hope by going through the war diaries I've linked above you can find when Douch transferred. 

Do you have any correspondence or perhaps a photo? I see Ancestry have a fine photo perhaps WW2? 

Charlie

[charlie962]

Ok one more, Hull Daily Mail, 30/12/14 via Findmypast newspapers 

[Evan]

Very many thanks to Charlie and Matlock for posting the above information in such short time. Truly outstanding. By way of reflection and maybe a little off topic some background on Horace. I will research the dates further but they seem to tie together. Family folklore has it that Horace met a lovely nurse whilst convalescing at a hospital in the UK. There is a photo of him in a wheel chair at a football game which could be in the May 1915 period. The nurse he met was Florance May VINE who he subsequently married and they emigrated to New Zealand in 1920. This might explain the lack of information on the pension cards post 1919.

At the outbreak of WW2 Horace immediately signed up with the Guards Vital Points (our version of the Home Guard) in which he served for the duration of the war. Post WW2 he enlisted full time as an Inspector of Ordnance (IOO) with the Army disposing of old munitions from the war. He discharged in 1958 as an Acting Sergeant. As a result he was somewhat deaf for the remainder of his life. Whilst returning home on a rainy night in July 1966 he was hit by a car on a pedestrian crossing (possibly not hearing it) and died of his injuries.

I shall try to get some photographs together and post them here. Thanks for the links to archives etc. I'll get into them asap.

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, Evan said:

he was hit by a car

After two world wars it just shows how ones luck can run out. He has a pleasing face in the Ancestry photo. Thanks for the background.

[TEW]

I saw this topic a few days ago and had high hopes of finding a transfer date for Douch. Alas, that's not worked out!!

14GH was based in Boulogne and the Boulogne base diary has quite extensive appendices showing 'MOVES' of officers, nurses and ordinary ranks. The 1914 diaries are a bit sporadic for the moves and the detailed reporting doesn't start till early 1915.

I went through the appendices of 28 diaries, May15-May17 and did not spot him. 

Taken on face value he was still at 14GH 15/5/15 and known to be with 8FA in May 1917. Their diary mentions casualties as a result of gas shells early in May 1917 so that fits in.

14 GH mentions six of its own personnel being admitted with measles 15/5/15 but it seems Douch was admitted with a slightly sprained ankle.

Perplexed at not finding him I looked at the 1914 Star Roll and had a look for other men from the Star roll and within half an hour picked up on six men, suspect another hour there would be a few more. So, at least the MOVES in the base diaries do match up nicely.

 

 

 

I've not checked that the appendices for each month are complete but I did check a few random months which were all present. It's possible I missed him and he is in there somewhere (28 diaries with approx 30 pages of appendices in each). These are WO95/4010 & 4012 for May15-May17. There may be missing pages, some are out of order.

 

Then last night I read:

18 hours ago, Evan said:

Very many thanks to Charlie and Matlock for posting the above information in such short time. Truly outstanding. By way of reflection and maybe a little off topic some background on Horace. I will research the dates further but they seem to tie together. Family folklore has it that Horace met a lovely nurse whilst convalescing at a hospital in the UK. There is a photo of him in a wheel chair at a football game which could be in the May 1915 period. The nurse he met was Florance May VINE who he subsequently married and they emigrated to New Zealand in 1920. This might explain the lack of information on the pension cards post 1919.

I think this is more likely the May 17 event? Would he be evacuated home for a sprained ankle? Anyway, it made me check the base diaries for Oct14-May15 just in case but again with no luck.

On 11/12/2022 at 09:35, charlie962 said:

Another scrap tells us he was still 14GH on 15th May 1915 when admitted with a slight sprained ankle.

Charlie, does this give his unit as 14GH or just that he was admitted 14GH?

 

As a general rule it does seem that once a unit arrived in theatre the DDMS took over and started moving the personnel around, the CO of 14GH was replaced after 19 days.

Shames the VAD site is still down, you could have checked for Florence May Vine's card and service history.

TEW

 

 

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, TEW said:

Charlie, does this give his unit as 14GH or just that he was admitted 14GH?

TEW, I was hoping you would contribute. What a useful find is that Base Diary detailed listing even if it didn't answer this puzzle.

Douch was 14GH as his unit in this Findmypast extract

I have not seen where they were admitted.

Edit.PS. you posted page three of this same list to the Casualty Lists thread back in May. I don't know if you identified its source hospital?

Edited 12 December , 2022 by charlie962

[TEW]

Thanks, it took a while to go through all those diaries!

Interesting sick/wounded list as it had the other six men from 14GH admitted with measles that the 14GH diary mentions. So list 21314 is admissions to 14GH.

I may have to trawl the base diaries again!

TEW

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, TEW said:

list 21314 is admissions to 14GH.

Long list. The snippet I posted above is page 7 and the full page is portrait rather than landscape!

[TEW]

As 21314 runs to at least 7 pages it may be more of a generic list of events at the Boulogne base. perhaps it has sub-headings but the 6 men with measles on your extract were admitted to 14GH on 15/5/15.

Six of the eight men from 21314 p7 are also on the 1914 Star roll as part of the original contingent.

I've looked at the base diaries for May15-Aug15 with a bit more diligence and so far not seen any of these eight RAMC men from list 21314. I'm wondering if as they became patients they were struck off strength and were at some point transferred or posted as patients from a convalescent depot. In which case they might not be listed under 'MOVES, Ordinary Ranks' as they weren't actually at duty. Just a theory at present will check more lists.

TEW