SS Ramazan

[Dr T Hundal]

Hi Everyone, As part of my research on Indian Troops at Gallipoli, I need some information on the sunk merchant liner SS Ramazan on 19th September 1915. It was carrying reinforcements for Gallipoli. Any help is welcome. TIA

[KizmeRD]

The British transport ship RAMAZAN (3,477 grt) was shelled and sunk by the German U-boat U-35 on 19th September 1915 in the southern Aegean. The ship was on a voyage from Alexandria to Mudros carrying military supplies and some 380 Indian troops* (75 of whom survived the sinking, together with 28 of the crew).

* Believed to be members of 2/10th Gurkha Rifles and 14th King George’s Own Ferozepore Sikhs.

MB

 

 

 

Edited 22 November , 2022 by KizmeRD

[George Rayner]

An interesting newspaper article-courtesy FMP

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0003212%2f19151109%2f089&stringtohighlight=gurkha ramazan

Daily News (London) 09 November 1915

There are other reports as well

George

[KizmeRD]

Unfortunately sometimes when researching WW1 events, we stumble across some unsavoury facts. In this case, it would appear that 28 of the 29 crew members escaped the sinking in a lifeboat (one apparently one was killed during the shelling), whereas only 75 of 380 Indian troops survived the sinking. Did the ship even have life rafts for the numbers being carried? 
I quite understand why the British Government put a news blackout on the event at the time, but now over a hundred years later, there’s still almost nothing written about this, which is somewhat perplexing, bearing in mind the vast number of military histories written about the Gallipoli Campaign.

MB

[Dr T Hundal]

Thanks @KizmeRD& @George Rayner for the kind help. Much appreciated. Any possibility of getting the names/ details of Indian soldiers who were on board SS Ramazan? 

[KizmeRD]

I don’t know how to get the names of all those who were onboard at the time of the sinking, however at least the names of all those who died are recorded on the ‘Helles Memorial’.   In order to display the list you need to click on the CWGC website (link below). Then in search criteria leave the name details blank, enter ‘Served With (Country)’ - ‘Indian’,   enter ‘Served in’ - Army’,   and then click ‘First World War’,   next in ‘Additional Fields’ enter ‘Helles Memorial’ under ‘Cemeteriy or Memorial’ and ‘19/09/1915’ under ‘exact date of death’. Having done all that a list of the dead will then be revealed.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/

The only names I currently know, without searching the CWGC database in the way described above, are two British Subalterns (Junior Officers) - 2nd Lt. M.J. Unger who drowned with eighty men of the 14th Sikhs and 2nd Lt. A.J.M. Reeves (also 14th Sikhs) who was rescued from the sea along with 34 men.

Good luck,

MB

Addition - I just checked the name of M.J. Unger in the CWGC database in order to verify what I said above, and found that his date of death was listed as 20th September 1915 (so be careful, not all casualties from RAMAZAN are dated 19/09/1915).

Edited 23 November , 2022 by KizmeRD
Additional note added.

[Simon S.]

Hello all,

enclosed is the translation of the war diary entry of U 35, which raises some questions. Why were the soldiers in the forecastle forgotten when leaving the ship? Were the Sikhs and Gurkhas not voluntarily on board?

...

19.9.15, 4h30-5h20 in the morning, West of Crete, wind WNW 2, clear, visible.

Dived at dawn in front of dimmed vessel and drove attack. Steamer lies so high out of the water that torpedo may pass under her. Therefore surfaced and fired a shot across the bow. Austrian flag set. Steamer does not set flag, turns away and tries to escape; therefore opened gunfire on her. After about 6 to 8 observed hits the steamer stops and launches boats. By 7 a.m. 7 boats are launched fully manned; it is determined that it is a transport of Indian troops. People wear brown and yellow turbans, some of them tropical hats. When the last boat had set off at 7 a.m., the steamer was hit a few times in the waterline of the forward hold. As the ship began to sink, a large number of people suddenly came running up on deck from the forecastle, but they did nothing to save themselves. The actual crew of the steamer had already disembarked and it seemed as if the troops that had just appeared had been locked below deck. In total, the transport must have been about 500 men strong. The number of lifeboats on the ship was far from sufficient. Unfortunately, it was not possible to think of rescuing the people by submarine because of the excessive number. The ship was the English steamer "Ramazan" from Liverpool (2,200 GRT). It had black funnel with white ring and white and red flag underneath. On the forward decks above the forward holds, as well as on the middle deck, wooden sheds - apparently living quarters - had been built.

...

Greetings from Potsdam
Simon

[KizmeRD]

Thank you Simon, and although the account from U-35’s war diary certainly raises some questions, I’m reluctant to subscribe to a conspiracy theory just yet without additional evidence from other sources. Unfortunately since most Indian Troops at the time were unable to write in any language (let alone English), there are no personal accounts that I’ve been able to find written by survivors. Add to that all official military reports from the British side were suppressed (reason being?) and the fact that there was also a sizeable contingent of Burmese military police onboard too, then it’s tempting to put two and two together to make five by suggesting that at least some of the draft Indian Army replacements might have been reluctant heroes. 

We simply don’t yet know enough about this sad event, and are unlikely to find out more without some devious investigation (since all the more usual sources of information appear to have been expunged).

MB

[George Rayner]

If you are able to access Find My Past this is a list of the Sikhs remembered at Helles

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=101&keywords=helles&regiment=14th+king+george's+own+ferozepore+sikhs&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain

George

 

Edited 23 November , 2022 by George Rayner

[George Rayner]

In the Army & Navy Gazette of 13th November 1915

 

From FMP

George

[KizmeRD]

There’s mention of the sinking of the transport RAMAZAN in the Australian Navy Monographs Vol. VIII (pub. 1923).

U35 (under Kapitänleutnant Waldemar Kophamel) left Cattaro August 31 to patrol the southern Aegean (returning Sept. 22). During this patrol three ships were sunk - the French steamer Ravitailleur (Sept. 17), and two British ships - Ramazan (Sept. 19) ‘with the loss of some 300 out of the 400 on board’ and the collier Linkmoor (Sept. 20).

MB

 

[charlie962]

There is a crew list 1915 for the Ramazan.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14670186

If the crew got away safely, luck was not with the 62 year old Captain in 1916. He was torpedoed a second time on the steamer Morazan. The rest of the crew were rescued but the Captain, C J Leggett was taken prisoner by the German Submarine.

This clipping courtesy Middlesex County Times 9/12/16 and FindmyPast newspapers:

 

Edited 23 November , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Here is Captain Leggett's description of the loss of Ramazan.

Courtesy Findmypast newspapers and The Gazette, 13/11/15.

.

[Dr T Hundal]

Many thanks for the help guys. It has definetely cleared lot of my doubts. Grateful. Request if any more details/ associated information about the incident/ manifest of soldiers on board, if available are shared. TIA

[KizmeRD]

Well done Charlie’s for finding the press cutting providing the account of Ramazan’s Captain - his narrative appears to provide a somewhat credible explanation of the unusual nature of the activity occurring onboard, and is consistent with what the U-boat commander observed. The event would obviously have been quite frightening and confusing for many of the Indian troops who clearly didn’t fully appreciate and understand what was happening. It appears that some of them (perhaps non-swimmers) mistakenly thought it safer to seek shelter below deck and to remain there, rather than to take to the lifeboats. There was clearly a great deal of misunderstanding on board, exacerbated by the fearfulness of the situation and probably not helped by language difficulties and/or mistrust of what they were being told. Most were inexperienced soldiers, replacement drafts sent from depot in order to bring the main body of their units (already fighting on Gallipoli) back up to strength. Unfortunately it was then too late for those who had chosen to remain on the ship once the U-boat resumed shelling and it started to sink.

MB

Edited 24 November , 2022 by KizmeRD

[charlie962]

That U-boat log is remarkably detailed. Capt Leggett's account has passed via a reporter and been abbreviated but apart from an apparent difference in number of boats the two versions reconcile well.

Capt Leggett continued to command a boat as the subsequent report on Morazan shows so one can presume no blame attached to him.

Doesn't it just show how a single witness of an event is not enough to get the full story.  All depends on the viewpoint. Classic problem for police and accident investigators.

There may yet be other accounts by military survivors? I tried a search for Reeves or even Unger but nothing. 

Charlie

[George Rayner]

In one newspaper it mentions that the war office? we're waiting for the senior officer's report before releasing details

George

[charlie962]

On 22/11/2022 at 04:40, KizmeRD said:

Believed to be members of 2/10th Gurkha Rifles and 14th King George’s Own Ferozepore Sikhs.

What do their war diaries record for this event? Probably no names for ORs but should be something for officers.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557425

Ah! You said they were Reinforcements on the way so unlikely to be  covered by battalion war diaries.

[charlie962]

2nd Mate RS Jauget has this write-up on site Masonic Great War Project:

Family :

Husband of Madge Jauget, of 13, Moran St., Fulwell, Sunderland. Born in Russia.

Education & Career :

Second Mate? Captain?

According to the Royal Astronomical Society Reinold John Jauget was elected as a fellow 14th May 1909. At its Ninety-seventh Annual General Meeting, Reinhold was remembered in an obituary notice: "REINOLD JOHN JAUGET was born at Libau, Russia, on 1870 August 18. He came to England about twenty years ago, and was naturalised in 1908. He followed the sea all his life, and at the time of his death was chief officer of H.M.S. Ramazan, which was torpedoed in the Mediteranean on 1915 September 19. The officers and crew had all escaped in the lifeboats, but were then fired upon, and the boat in which Captain Jauget had taken refuge was capsized, and he was never seen again. Captain Jauget made his home in Sunderland, where he was married in 1911. He leaves a widow and a daughter, who was only eight month old when her father was drowned. He was elected a Fellow of the Society on 1909 May 14.

[charlie962]

An aside but I tried to find more about Capt CJ Leggett but apart from learning he was pow and his wife lived sometime at Curzon Rd, Ealing I found nothing , not even his Christian names. 1915 Crew list said aged 62 and born London.

Update..

He is Cornelius James Leggett (1872-1940), so the Crew list transcript has an error. 

His PoW card includes sheet PA 36405, 28/8/18 held Stralsund-Dunheln. He has numerous other sheets.

 other sheets Eg...

His Mercantile Marine/BWM card confirms address and year of birth.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8048624 

See also obit and photo in later post.

Edited 24 November , 2022 by charlie962

[KizmeRD]

Jauget was not the only foreign member of the crew, RAMAZAN seems to have been a very diverse ship with many nationalities employed aboard.

MB

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

with many nationalities employed

Yes, I noted that on the crew list summary at NA. That makes it less likely to find an obit or report in the newspapers.

[charlie962]

1st Engineer was E Askew, age 31, born Birkenhead.

I believe this to be Edgar Benjamin Askew 1882-1951. 

 He has a BT card with photo and an MIC for the Mercantile Marine medal.

I found no newspaper reports related to him?

[charlie962]

Putting the loss into perspective, the Irish Independant of Jan 1917 published this interesting summary. I don't know how complete. 

Via FindmyPast newspapers,

[charlie962]

I've updated ( by edit) my notes re Leggett that I queried in an earlier post. 

Here's his obit 1940 local paper (courtesy Findmypast newspapers)

 

His photo from an Ancestry Tree.

Edited 24 November , 2022 by charlie962