Same soldier or two different soldiers?

[tonybiker]

I kindly seek some information about a soldier, George Cowley, B/1835, 7th Bn., Rifle Brigade. First as a private and then as a Lance Corporal. I have been working with relatives of George Cowley and they have sent me two photographs. One is certainly George Cowley sat on a horse, taken either in 1914 or 1915 at the latest. He was killed on 7th December 1915.
His war records declare that he had previous military service of 4 years but I am unable to read what it says after.
Looking at both photos, I am wondering if the guy in the shorts is the same George Cowley on the horse but taken some years earlier and within this 4 years of the previous service?.
The 1911 census shows him working as an Electrical Engineer, age 27. This would make him too young for the Boer War, plus I am unsure of the uniform. The stand to his right has something on top of it, I have no idea if that is just a stone ornament of his headgear or if something else is placed on it.
I would be grateful for any pointers, are they the same guy in both photos, or not?
Many thanks in anticipation of any help.
Tony

 

[FROGSMILE]

Royal Field Artillery in both photos I think.  Badge is discernible in mounted photo and in the other he’s wearing tropical khaki drill with shoulder title of RFA I should think.

Rifle Brigade wore black buttons and black shoulder titles of two letters, RB.

It’s possible that he was subsequently to these photos compulsorily transferred to the infantry.

Edited 17 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Interested]

The chins look similar, so I'd guess they are the same man, and age-wise not too far apart IMO.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Interested said:

The chins look similar, so I'd guess they are the same man, and age-wise not too far apart IMO.

Yes, same man I think.

[mancpal]

On the second photo he has at least 3 overseas service chevrons and a good conduct one above his other cuff. 
The overseas chevrons were authorised at the end of 1917 so logic would suggest that the 2nd photo won’t be earlier than 1918. 

Simon

 

[Grovetown]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, same man I think.

But not George Cowley (KIA 1915), as the OS chevrons in the second image make it no earlier than 1918.

Cheers,

GT.

[tonybiker]

Many thanks for the replies so far. He was killed in action 1915.

[mancpal]

That was the point I meant to highlight.

I'm looking on my phone screen so not ideal. I think they are different soldiers, the mounted man may be who you seek, I don’t think the 2nd subject is roughly 35yrs old.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Grovetown said:

But not George Cowley (KIA 1915), as the OS chevrons in the second image make it no earlier than 1918.

Cheers,

GT.

Yes indeed, so the Rifle Brigade document doesn’t then chime with the photos. 

Edited 17 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mancpal said:

That was the point I meant to highlight.

I'm looking on my phone screen so not ideal. I think they are different soldiers, the mounted man may be who you seek, I don’t think the 2nd subject is roughly 35yrs old.

Simon

I think they are the same faces Simon and the insignia matches, but we’ll all tend to see slightly differently, I guess, and determine our own take on things.

Edited 17 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

If they are the same man (had another look and now think they might be) then the mounted soldier can’t be George Cowley as surmised in the OP.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, mancpal said:

If they are the same man (had another look and now think they might be) then the mounted soldier can’t be George Cowley as surmised in the OP.

Simon

Agreed.  It must be someone else.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

What does the number 40 on the front of his topee signify?

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What does the number 40 on the front of his topee signify?

There was a 40th Field Battery RFA at Kirkee in India.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thank you.

[tonybiker]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

There was a 40th Field Battery RFA at Kirkee in India.

Excellent, I did wonder what that was.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, tonybiker said:

Excellent, I did wonder what that was.

The flash was usually half red and half blue and often with brass numerals on.  In this case it seems to have an additional coloured backing behind the numbers.

[TEW]

It's late but I think George had a brother - Thomas Hitchen Cowley. Same birth district and mother's maiden name. Born 1882.

A 2735 Thomas Cowley RFA also from Northwich died 11/5/18.

CWGC has him as 148th Bde. and buried in Boulougne.

TEW

[Interested]

The second man could be his brother, from what you say.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, TEW said:

It's late but I think George had a brother - Thomas Hitchen Cowley. Same birth district and mother's maiden name. Born 1882.

A 2735 Thomas Cowley RFA also from Northwich died 11/5/18.

CWGC has him as 148th Bde. and buried in Boulougne.

TEW

It looks like both photos probably show Thomas Crowley then as that certainly chimes with the visible uniform features.

Edited 18 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[tonybiker]

Many thanks for everyone help, its very much appreciated.

Reading all the comments, its noted that the overseas chevrons were not used until after 1918, and given he was killed in action December 1915, does that rule out the second picture being of George Cowley?.

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, tonybiker said:

Many thanks for everyone help, its very much appreciated.

Reading all the comments, its noted that the overseas chevrons were not used until after 1918, and given he was killed in action December 1915, does that rule out the second picture being of George Cowley?.

 

Yes.  As does the rest of his entire uniform and insignia.  As both photos show Royal Artillery features there seems little doubt that they are both images of Thomas Crowley.

Edited 18 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[tonybiker]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It looks like both photos probably show Thomas Crowley then as that certainly chimes with the visible uniform features.

Wow. Now, this adds a new possibility.

[tonybiker]

Reading George Cowley's war records, both parents are deceased and brothers 'none alive' just one sister. On the CWGC grave records for Thomas Cowley, a possible brother, its shows a mother, Mrs A Cowley, Netherfield Road, Liverpool. So I think I can rule either photo being a brother, the first photo most likely George Cowley.

George Cowley's widow went on the marry Frank Jacks who had also served in WW1. Frank Jack's brother Henry was killed in action, photo attached. Looking at Frank Jacks's war records, shows him being wounded in action after embarking at Bombay, India with the Cheshire Regiment. Also in January 1919, he was transferred to a different battalion of the Cheshire Regiment.

Given this new information, could it be possible the second photo is George Gowley's widows 2nd husband. Served in India and was still serving in 1919 with the Cheshire Regiment. The chevons match to someone in 1919, and likewise the shorts and hat? Problem is, is this uniform Cheshire Regiment?

This is getting a bit complicated.

[TEW]

Mid-post when your reply popped up.

 

Perhaps an artillery expert could explain a connection between the 40th Field Battery RFA at Kirkee in India and 148th Bde RFA in France.

There is a third brother - Charles born 1878 seemingly deceased by March 1919 (Army From 5080).

The photo with shorts and chevrons has been established as an RFA man and not taken before 1918.

However, the Kirkee connection between the 40th Field Battery (based on the topee insignia) and Frank Jacks' service with 5th Res. Btn. in Kirkee needs unravelling.

TEW