9th manchesters cap badge

[poona guard]

Does anyone have a better image of the badge worn by this 9th Manchesters officer or know anything about the badge?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, poona guard said:

Does anyone have a better image of the badge worn by this 9th Manchesters officer or know anything about the badge?

 It was the practice for commissioned officers and battalion staff sergeants of the 2nd Battalion Manchester Regiment to wear a different cap badge to their other ranks.  It was known as the ‘Brunswick Star’.  In OSD it was in Bronze.  For reasons unclear to me one or more of the TF battalions also followed the practice.

NB.  The first pattern of the badge had a Victorian Crown.  The Sphinx and EGYPT was earned by the 96th Regiment of Foot and the star commemorated this.  It bears a circlet with the 2nd Battalion title.

Edited 3 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[poona guard]

Very interesting. These are in facing pairs so are they collar dogs?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, poona guard said:

Very interesting. These are in facing pairs so are they collar dogs?

Yes, they were unofficial, but worn on collars and headdress by the 2nd Battalion, including forage and field caps, pagri badge and the lapels of officers’ mess dress jackets.  There are two versions, one with just Manchester Regiment, omitting the “2nd”.

There’s plenty of photographic evidence of the badges in wear.  The star alone was connected with both the 63rd and 96th and so was a unifying item of insignia.  There were patterns in silver, gilt (for HQ staff) and bronze (OSD).  The date of origin for the first badge, with Victorian crown, is thought to be around 1900, just a year before the old Queen died.

Edited 3 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[poona guard]

Thanks. Will use in the book.

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, poona guard said:

Thanks. Will use in the book.

It was used as a letter head by the 2nd Battalion too.  The Egypt significance is unclear, as the 96th were a relatively junior regiment, not raised until 1824, and the Egypt honour generally refers to the defeat of Napoleon there in 1801, so the details need checking**.

They vary slightly in size and crown shape and were apparently made locally in India and Egypt to varying degrees of quality.  Often worn on mess dress and blue patrol uniform, my take is that their popularity reflects on the regular battalions intense dislike of the City Arms badge, which came from the Militia when the Childers Reforms brought the two together in July 1881.  The previous (to 1898) forage cap badge favoured by the regular battalions had been a bullion wire and silk badge of the Sphinx with regimental title scroll below.  That seems to have then been superimposed in the centre of an earlier type of ‘Brunswick star’, which apparently had association with both, 63rd and 96th.

Battalion first class staff sergeants had previously worn a gilt and white metal version of the Sphinx badge 1881-1884.

**Afternote:  the honour EGYPT 1801 was inherited by special permission from an earlier 96th Regiment, known as “The Queen’s Germans”, which was in existence between 1798 and 1818, when it was disbanded, and that took part in the actions there.  This is probably the origin of the connection with the Brunswick Star, as Brunswick is a region in Germany.  Perhaps @GreyC can advise.  Until 1881 and the award of Manchester’s coat of arms, the Sphinx was the only honourable device inherited by the 63rd and 96th, so hence its relative importance and appearance on all regimental insignia, including buttons.  Rather ironic considering that neither regiment had itself been anywhere near Egypt!

 

Edited 4 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

@poona guard: this is the best quality and earliest one that I can find.  Perfect for your book I think.  The version including “2nd” on the circlet is clearly the oldest.

Edited 3 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Hi Frogsmile,

this is way to early for me. But I found this which might help, though it doesn´t explain the Egypt part: " A ...history can be found with a collection of soldiers raised by the Duke of Brunswick, which, after a failed attempt at liberating their homeland in 1809, in a movement reminiscent of the histories of Xenophon, fled to the coast [of Germany] to be rescued and brought to England. During this same period, these men were joined by the remnants of Major Ferdinand von Schill’s hussar regiment, a band of Prussian freedom fighters of whom many would join the British service after their leader, von Schill, became a martyr for the cause of German liberation. The cavalry and infantry of the Brunswick-Öls Corps, styled the ‘Death or Glory’ men on account of the skull and crossbones motif on their caps, or more commonly, ‘The Black Brunswickers’ in reference to their pitch-black uniforms, would first be stationed in the Channel Islands, but ultimately spent the majority of their time in the British establishment fighting with Wellington in the Peninsular War and as garrison troops in Sicily."

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1333996/1/1333996.pdf

GreyC

Edited 4 November , 2022 by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, GreyC said:

Hi Frogsmile,

this is way to early for me. But I found this which might help, though it doesn´t explain the Egypt part: " A ...history can be found with a collection of soldiers raised by the Duke of Brunswick, which, after a failed attempt at liberating their homeland in 1809, in a movement reminiscent of the histories of Xenophon, fled to the coast [of Germany] to be rescued and brought to England. During this same period, these men were joined by the remnants of Major Ferdinand von Schill’s hussar regiment, a band of Prussian freedom fighters of whom many would join the British service after their leader, von Schill, became a martyr for the cause of German liberation. The cavalry and infantry of the Brunswick-Öls Corps, styled the ‘Death or Glory’ men on account of the skull and crossbones motif on their caps, or more commonly, ‘The Black Brunswickers’ in reference to their pitch-black uniforms, would first be stationed in the Channel Islands, but ultimately spent the majority of their time in the British establishment fighting with Wellington in the Peninsular War and as garrison troops in Sicily."

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1333996/1/1333996.pdf

GreyC

Hello GreyC, thank you for taking time to look and reply.  I think that the Napoleonic period that you have mentioned is indeed the time when the Brunswick star became significant within the British Army.  As well as units like the Black Brunswickers and Queen’s Germans, it seems that there might once again be some connection with Britain’s Hanoverian Kings.  It was during the latter end of that Hanoverian period that the star symbol referred to as the Brunswick Star was selected as insignia for the Coldstream Guards, and then later as a widely used backing plate for many other corps, culminating in the final patterns of shako and then the blue spiked helmet issued as universal best headdress in 1878.  Subsequently the same star shape was used for the Scots Guards and Irish Guards too.  Also the Royal Regiment of Canada.  Indeed all British regiments whose cap badge is an 8-point star shape owe the origin to the Brunswick Star.  I had not realised until now the star’s origins.

“The Brunswick star is an emblem which in outline is an eight-pointed or sixteen-pointed star, but which is composed of many narrow rays. It is used in the United Kingdom to surround the royal cypher on various badges, such as that worn on the caps and helmets of almost all police and fire services in England and Wales. The name Brunswick refers to the German Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg, better known as the principality of Hanover, which was ruled by the House of Hanover whose heads also became kings of Great Britain.”

Edited 4 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

The Egypt 1801 honour was won by the Minorca Regt (raised from Swiss mercenary PoWs) which was given the numeric title 97th in 1805, the 97th were renumbered 96th of Foot in 1816. When the 96th was re-raised in 1824 it was raised by Maj-Gen J Fuller of the Coldstream Guards. Maj-Gen Fuller chose the Brunswick Star as the regiments badge - did he do so as it was also the badge of the Coldstreams and also to honour King George IV who as Elector of Hannover was also the Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg? 
The linage connecting the Minorca Regt and the 96th of Foot was only officially recognised in 1874.

https://www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsgalleries/mom/objectfocus/brunswick.pdf

http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=6145.0

Charlie

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/11/2022 at 08:14, charlie2 said:

The Egypt 1801 honour was won by the Minorca Regt (raised from Swiss mercenary PoWs) which was given the numeric title 97th in 1805, the 97th were renumbered 96th of Foot in 1816. When the 96th was re-raised in 1824 it was raised by Maj-Gen J Fuller of the Coldstream Guards. Maj-Gen Fuller chose the Brunswick Star as the regiments badge - did he do so as it was also the badge of the Coldstreams and also to honour King George IV who as Elector of Hannover was also the Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg? 
The linage connecting the Minorca Regt and the 96th of Foot was only officially recognised in 1874.

https://www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsgalleries/mom/objectfocus/brunswick.pdf

http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=6145.0

Charlie

 

Thank you Charlie, I think you have brilliantly completed the story of the Brunswick Star adopted by the 2nd Battalion of the Manchester Regiment as a link between earlier 96th Regiments of Foot despite the break in service (continuity).  See also: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/283741-help-with-a-cap-badge/#comment-2917607

 

NB.  I suspect that very few British policemen and firemen realise the link between their badges and the Duchy of Brunswick.  The Worcestershire Regiment also adopted the star as a direct result of influence from a former Coldstream Guards colonel.

Edited 6 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Interested]

Fascinating stuff..

Thanks to all the contributors, every day is a school day...

[GreyC]

Here is some more background info for those interested:

Herzog Friedrich-Wilhelm von Braunschweig lived from 1771-1815.

He briefly ruled the state of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel from 1806 to 1807 and again from 1813 to 1815. He was a Prussian general.

His Greatgrandfather was King Georg II of Great Britain.

His grandfather Friedrich Ludwig von Hannover was father of Georg III.

His mother, Augusta von Hannover was a Prinzess of GB, his sister was wife of George IV. So he was the first cousin and brother-in-law (from 8 April 1795) of his friend George IV, Prince Regent of the United Kingdom (from 1811).

 

When the War of the Fifth Coalition broke out in 1809, Frederick William used this opportunity to create a corps of partisans with the support of the Austrian Empire. This corps was called the Black Brunswickers because they wore black uniforms in mourning for their occupied country. He financed the corps independently by mortgaging his principality in Oels, and made his way from Austrian Bohemia through the French-allied states of Saxony and Westphalia to the North Sea coast.

Frederick William briefly managed to retake control of the city of Braunschweig in August 1809, which gained him the status of a local folk hero. He then fled to Britain to join forces with his brother-in-law, later to be King George IV. His troops were taken into British pay and the Duke was granted the rank of lieutenant general in the British Army on 1 July 1809.^[1] His corps of originally 2,300 soldiers was largely destroyed in battles in Spain and Portugal during the Peninsular War.

 

Frederick William returned to Braunschweig in December 1813, after Prussia had ended French domination in Braunschweig-Lüneburg. When Napoleon returned to the political scene in 1815 during the Hundred Days, Frederick William raised fresh troops. He was killed by a gunshot at the Battle of Quatre Bras on 16 June, the night after he had attended the Duchess of Richmond's ball in Brussels

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Here is some more background info for those interested:

Herzog Friedrich-Wilhelm von Braunschweig lived from 1771-1815.

 

He briefly ruled the state of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel from 1806 to 1807 and again from 1813 to 1815. He was a Prussian general.

 

His Greatgrandfather was King Georg II of Great Britain.

 

His grandfather Friedrich Ludwig von Hannover was father of Georg III.

 

His mother, Augusta von Hannover was a Prinzess of GB, his sister was wife of George IV. So he was the first cousin and brother-in-law (from 8 April 1795) of his friend George IV, Prince Regent of the United Kingdom (from 1811).

 

 

 

When the War of the Fifth Coalition broke out in 1809, Frederick William used this opportunity to create a corps of partisans with the support of the Austrian Empire. This corps was called the Black Brunswickers because they wore black uniforms in mourning for their occupied country. He financed the corps independently by mortgaging his principality in Oels, and made his way from Austrian Bohemia through the French-allied states of Saxony and Westphalia to the North Sea coast.

 

Frederick William briefly managed to retake control of the city of Braunschweig in August 1809, which gained him the status of a local folk hero. He then fled to Britain to join forces with his brother-in-law, later to be King George IV. His troops were taken into British pay and the Duke was granted the rank of lieutenant general in the British Army on 1 July 1809.^[1] His corps of originally 2,300 soldiers was largely destroyed in battles in Spain and Portugal during the Peninsular War.

 

 

 

Frederick William returned to Braunschweig in December 1813, after Prussia had ended French domination in Braunschweig-Lüneburg. When Napoleon returned to the political scene in 1815 during the Hundred Days, Frederick William raised fresh troops. He was killed by a gunshot at the Battle of Quatre Bras on 16 June, the night after he had attended the Duchess of Richmond's ball in Brussels

 

Fascinating information contextually linking this subject together GreyC, thank you.  I have read quite a lot before about the preliminary Battle at Quatre Bras, but did not pick up on the death there of Frederick William.  Very interesting.

[poona guard]

Stunning stuff, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this fascinating lesson.

[CheshireRifles]

Something I never knew. About the verity of cap badges for the Manchesters and the history.    Thank you for this insight.