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Remembered Today:

Help with a Cap Badge


PJS

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Can someone please identify the cap badge of this very young looking Officer?  And if there's anything special about the collar badge I would be interested to hear about that too.

 

Cap-badge.JPG.1ca4d833bbbe72266555edb11daa64ea.JPG

 

Thank You

Peter

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7 minutes ago, tonydb said:

Hello PJS its Manchester  Regiment.

Tony.

 

Thanks Tony. I know you must be right because he is a Manchester Regiment Officer but I don't recognize the cap badge which is why I asked the question. Do you have any explanation or background on why he was wearing this badge versus the "normal" Manchester Regiment cap badges? I believe the photo was taken in 1916 in case that's relevant.

 

Peter

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On 29/07/2020 at 20:02, TullochArd said:

How interesting.  Detail from Col Wylly 1925 regarding 2nd Manchesters and the Brunswick Star at  https://www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsgalleries/mom/objectfocus/brunswick.pdf


It is worthy of note that the same badge was worn on the caps of warrant officers, and those specialised Sergeants on the battalion HQ Staff (ergo the ‘staff sergeants’) of the 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment, a tradition apparently not shared by the 2nd Battalion, who preferred the Sphinx on its own. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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The officer in the OP has ‘normal’ Manchester Regt TF collar badges, so presumably he’s Manchester TF attached to 2nd Manchesters? Was it normal for an attached officer to change cap badge in this way, or would it have been at the CO’s discretion?

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22 minutes ago, headgardener said:

The officer in the OP has ‘normal’ Manchester Regt TF collar badges, so presumably he’s Manchester TF attached to 2nd Manchesters? Was it normal for an attached officer to change cap badge in this way, or would it have been at the CO’s discretion?


As an officer of the battalion, probably seconded rather than attached, he would more usually be dressed the same as his fellow officers.

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7 minutes ago, tonydb said:

With reference to the collar badges, there looks to me to be a small "T" below the collar badges in the opening post.

 

 

Yes, the ‘T’ stands for ‘Territorial’. It’s what I was referring to in my post #8, above. He’s obviously from a MAnchesters TF battalion (hence ‘normal’ Manchester collar badges + ‘T’) but seconded or attached (see Frogsmile’s post above) to 2nd Manchester’s (hence the Brunswick star badge).

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58 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Yes, the ‘T’ stands for ‘Territorial’. It’s what I was referring to in my post #8, above. He’s obviously from a MAnchesters TF battalion (hence ‘normal’ Manchester collar badges + ‘T’) but seconded or attached (see Frogsmile’s post above) to 2nd Manchester’s (hence the Brunswick star badge).

 

Actually, he is a 1/9th Manchesters TF Battalion Officer and I know that he was not attached to any other Battalion. I also have the below photo of W.T. Forshaw, VC (also of the 1/9th) who appears to have the same Brunswick Star.

 

Capt-WT-FORSHAW-II.JPG.f09ecbbb0202ba0b749bcf068759378e.JPG

 

In my ignorance I was wondering if the cap badge in the original photo was that of an OTC and since it did not look like the "normal" Manchesters cap badge that I was expecting to see I posted it here to try to find out what it was. I need to see if I can find some photos of 1/10th Officers to see what cap badge they used since they were in the same Brigade.

 

Peter  

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It will be interesting to see how many TF battalions emulated the 2nd Regular Battalion.  
 

There was another unusual badge worn by SNCOs of battalion staff of the 2nd Battalion, which comprised of just the regimental pattern Sphinx with a scroll inscribed MANCHESTER beneath.

 

These idiosyncratic differences epitomise perfectly the frictions in regiments formed in 1881 between in the case of the Manchester’s, the Militia (city coat of arms), 63rd (Also the standard regimental badge), and 96th (Sphinx).  It was not until the Fleur de Lis was adopted between the two wars than an insignia was found that suited all the battalions.

 

7CB6F5D1-E665-41D3-A00E-752C37F37C85.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It will be interesting to see how many TF battalions emulated the 1st Regular Battalion.  There was another unusual badge worn by SNCOs of battalion staff of I think the 2nd Battalion, which comprised of just the Sphinx with a scroll inscribed MANCHESTER beneath.

 

These idiosyncratic differences epitomise perfectly the frictions in regiments formed in 1882 between the Militia (city coat of arms), 63rd (Brunswick Star), and 96th (Sphinx).  It was not until the Fleur de Lis was adopted between the two wars than an insignia was found that suited all the battalions.

 

And the fleur-de-lis was also in use as the badge of one of the TF battalions (7th I think?).

Very strange to see these variants as I've been looking at WW1 uniform images for years and have never knowingly seen the Brunswick Star badge. Subject to the vagaries of portrait photography, it could easily be mistaken for the badge of a few different regiments. 

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22 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

And the fleur-de-lis was also in use as the badge of one of the TF battalions (7th I think?).

Very strange to see these variants as I've been looking at WW1 uniform images for years and have never knowingly seen the Brunswick Star badge. Subject to the vagaries of portrait photography, it could easily be mistaken for the badge of a few different regiments. 


Yes, it was worn by the TF Battalion in floriated form.  Interestingly it was also used as a company badge by one of the Lancashire Regiments, but I cannot recall which one.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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