Change of Regiment, Military Tribunals, Military Medal

[Ivor Anderson]

The 2/8th Manchester Regiment war diary: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355584

I don't see mention of MMs, but casualties were quite high in October 1917:

Edited 3 November , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Judith Batchelor said:

I found him in the Red Cross prisoner of war records and he died on April 14th 1918 and was buried by the Germans near Hargicourt. I am trying to piece together his time in the Army. 

Judith,

Did you pick up that went his wife wrote to the International Committee of the Red Cross asking if they had information about her missing husband she stated he was in No.1 Platoon, 'A' Company? Depending on how detailed the 2/5th War Diary is it may help you to focus on what might have happened to him.

The fighting at Hargicourt was on the 21st March 1918 - very quickly it was a few miles behind the front line and remained deep in German held territory until September 1918 - see  https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/gazetteer-of-the-western-front/gazetteer-western-front-hargicourt/

I would suspect either his body was found by the Germans on the 14th April, or the report received from the Germans was dated 14th April 1918. It would be very, very unlikely he was still alive on that date and was then killed. Even if he was wounded I would expect him to have been moved further back - even with all the medical equipment and staff captured in the German advance, priority was I believe being given to the German wounded. And if he'd have been captured wounded on the 21st he would have been likely to have been in a facility some three weeks later that had a permanent burial arrangement.

Image courtesy the International Committee of the Red Cross. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3564303/3/2/

Of course with hundreds of thousands involved on both sides there is the chance he got cut off and was killed while trying to regain the Allied lines - but that in turn would argue against him being near Hargicourt some three weeks after he went missing in action.

The War Office would have received similar information about his fate and post armistice would have had access to German records. While they don't have a 100% record in this matter, it does seem that they were satisfied that death presumed on the 21st March 1918 was the right call.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[RaySearching]

His remarried widows  WFA/Fold3 pension ledger card

Ray

[Judith Batchelor]

19 minutes ago, PRC said:

Judith,

Did you pick up that went his wife wrote to the International Committee of the Red Cross asking if they had information about her missing husband she stated he was in No.1 Platoon, 'A' Company? Depending on how detailed the 2/5th War Diary is it may help you to focus on what might have happened to him.

The fighting at Hargicourt was on the 21st March 1918 - very quickly it was a few miles behind the front line and remained deep in German held territory until September 1918 - see  https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/gazetteer-of-the-western-front/gazetteer-western-front-hargicourt/

I would suspect either his body was found by the Germans on the 14th April, or the report received from the Germans was dated 14th April 1918. It would be very, very unlikely he was still alive on that date and was then killed. Even if he was wounded I would expect him to have been moved further back - even with all the medical equipment and staff captured in the German advance, priority was I believe being given to the German wounded. And if he'd have been captured wounded on the 21st he would have been likely to have been in a facility some three weeks later that had a permanent burial arrangement.

Image courtesy the International Committee of the Red Cross. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3564303/3/2/

Of course with hundreds of thousands involved on both sides there is the chance he got cut off and was killed while trying to regain the Allied lines - but that in turn would argue against him being near Hargicourt some three weeks after he went missing in action.

The War Office would have received similar information about his fate and post armistice would have had access to German records. While they don't have a 100% record in this matter, it does seem that they were satisfied that death presumed on the 21st March 1918 was the right call.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Thanks Peter, I did read it that Bertie's wife was trying to find out what had happened to him. You may well be right that Bertie did in fact die on March 21st but was only buried on April 14th by the Germans. However, in that case, why would he be described as a prisoner of war, if he had been found dead? Why would the Red Cross have him recorded as a prisoner of war. Do you think it is possible that German records may have some mention of him?

[Judith Batchelor]

19 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

His remarried widows  WFA/Fold3 pension ledger card

Ray

Thanks Ray for providing this additional record. It is a bit strange as Ethel, Bertie's wife, did not remarry until 1923. She married the cousin of her late husband, Edwin Batchelor, who was my grandfather's younger brother. The marriage records that her name was Batchelor. It looks as if someone has amended the record at a later date and wrote Baldwin rather than Batchelor. 

[RaySearching]

Yes you are correct  the record will have been amended when his widow remarried

[Judith Batchelor]

28 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The 2/8th Manchester Regiment war diary: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355584

I don't see mention of MMs, but casualties were quite high in October 1917:

Thanks Ivor for looking at this for me. I have also been trawling through the records. There was a lot of action in October 1917 and heavy casualties. I think I have found the reference to Bertie's Military Medal, though the record just states that 12 men were awarded the Military Medal for "conspicuous bravery during the recent fighting". Lieut Heal? was awarded the Military Cross. 

[Ivor Anderson]

Well done Judith. I missed that! There must be 11 others to 2/8th Bn. in the 14 Jan 1918 LG.

There may be a wider MM list in the 66th Division war diary.

[PRC]

10 hours ago, Judith Batchelor said:

However, in that case, why would he be described as a prisoner of war, if he had been found dead? Why would the Red Cross have him recorded as a prisoner of war. Do you think it is possible that German records may have some mention of him?

The Germans haven't described him as a Prisoner of War, nor has the International Committee of the Red Cross, (ICRC), recorded him as one.

One ot the roles of the ICRC was to serve as a clearing house for the exchange of information between the combatant nations not just about prisoners but the missing and the dead. This also left them ideally placed to also answer individual queries from private individuals and organisations, and where necessary chase the relevant authority for further information.

Thus they had an enquiry from his wife to which they would reply in early July 1918 with a "negatif envoye" - nothing had been received from the German authorities.

But in a list from the German authorities dated 13th July 1918 and received in Geneva on the 8th August 1918. he was possibly mentioned This was a Death List ("Totenlisten") - the page, page 7 of the Totenlisten,  being given the ICRC reference PA32920.

Image courtesy of the International Committee of the Red Cross: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/3564303/698/32920/

He is part of a group of four individuals shown I believe as being found dead according to a report dated 14th April 1918. All the Germans could glean from his ID tags (Erkn or Erkenmungemarken) was that he was Soldier 44841 B.O.R. Batchel, Manchester Regiment. Someone in Geneva has managed to connect this up to the earlier missing persons enquiry for Bert Batchelor and send an update to his wife on the 18th September 1918.

Of the other three on the report as having "fallen":-

Soldier Albert Browne 5990 7 Leicester Regiment – CWGC has Private 5990 Albert Browne 2nd Battalion Leinster Regiment, died 27th March 1918, no known grave and remembered on the Pozieres Memorial.

Soldier John Backer 12313 18 Hussars Regiment – CWGC has Private 12313 James Baker 18th Hussars, died 22nd March 1918, no known grave and remembered on the Pozieres Memorial.

Soldier H.A. Brook 235561 East Lancashire Regiment, buried near Hargicourt – CWGC has Private 235561 Harold Andrew Brooke 2/5th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment, died 21st March 1918, no known grave and remembered on the Pozieres Memorial.

Given the error rate I don't think any of them were alive at the time the information was gathered.

Cheers,
Peter
 

Edited 4 November , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

Reading between the lines I should think he was probably killed during the opening artillery bombardment of the British front line (which had been meticulously mapped out by the Germans via weeks of battlefield analysis) and his body picked up and buried subsequently.

Edited 4 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Ivor Anderson]

From the 66th Division A&QMG war diary at the end of October 1917 - awards for 5-11th October 1917 - The National Archives' reference WO 95/3123/1

Edited 4 November , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Judith Batchelor]

13 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Well done Judith. I missed that! There must be 11 others to 2/8th Bn. in the 14 Jan 1918 LG.

There may be a wider MM list in the 66th Division war diary.

Yes, I am going to look more closely at the LG. Good idea to look at the 66th Division war diary. It's interesting to compare the level of detail recorded in the war diaries. Initially, I looked at 2/5th Battalion and found many more men were mentioned by name, compared to the equivalent diary of the 2/8th. Apart from the individual Military Medal citations, it was recorded when particular officers went on leave to England, when they came back, and those wounded and killed were all recorded by name.  

Thanks again for all your help. One final query, it doesn't look as if Bertie's Military Medal was record on his medal card. Is that unusual?

Judith 

[Judith Batchelor]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

The Germans haven't described him as a Prisoner of War, nor has the International Committee of the Red Cross, (ICRC), recorded him as one.

One ot the roles of the ICRC was to serve as a clearing house for the exchange of information between the combatant nations not just about prisoners but the missing and the dead. This also left them ideally placed to also answer individual queries from private individuals and organisations, and where necessary chase the relevant authority for further information.

Thus they had an enquiry from his wife to which they would reply in early July 1918 with a "negatif envoye" - nothing had been received from the German authorities.

But in a list from the German authorities dated 13th July 1918 and received in Geneva on the 8th August 1918. he was possibly mentioned This was a Death List ("Totenlisten") - the page, page 7 of the Totenlisten,  being given the ICRC reference PA32920.

Image courtesy of the International Committee of the Red Cross: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/3564303/698/32920/

He is part of a group of four individuals shown I believe as being found dead according to a report dated 14th April 1918. All the Germans could glean from his ID tags (Erkn or Erkenmungemarken) was that he was Soldier 44841 B.O.R. Batchel, Manchester Regiment. Someone in Geneva has managed to connect this up to the earlier missing persons enquiry for Bert Batchelor and send an update to his wife on the 18th September 1918.

Of the other three on the report as having "fallen":-

Soldier Albert Browne 5990 7 Leicester Regiment – CWGC has Private 5990 Albert Browne 2nd Battalion Leinster Regiment, died 27th March 1918, no known grave and remembered on the Pozieres Memorial.

Soldier John Backer 12313 18 Hussars Regiment – CWGC has Private 12313 James Baker 18th Hussars, died 22nd March 1918, no known grave and remembered on the Pozieres Memorial.

Soldier H.A. Brook 235561 East Lancashire Regiment, buried near Hargicourt – CWGC has Private 235561 Harold Andrew Brooke 2/5th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment, died 21st March 1918, no known grave and remembered on the Pozieres Memorial.

Given the error rate I don't think any of them were alive at the time the information was gathered.

Cheers,
Peter
 

Peter, I am really indebted to you for the time you have taken to share your expertise and insights. My interpretation was that Bertie must have been captured alive. However, when you look at the scenario you describe, it does look as if he was found after his death by the Germans, who then buried him.  This also chimes with the story the family recieved from a friend. You can see what an important role the Red Cross paid in acting as an intermediary between parties. 

Since the Germans identified Bertie and buried him, is it surprising that his grave was not marked? Is it a case that it just became lost in the chaos of war? I was also wondering whether this also happened to Germans who were buried by the British. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. It's a pity a more precise location of his burial is not given but I guess one could pinpoint the rough area where his body was laid. 

Thanks again for all your help. I have learnt such a lot from the thread.  

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Reading between the lines I should think he was probably killed during the opening artillery bombardment of the British front line (which had been meticulously mapped out by the Germans via weeks of battlefield analysis) and his body picked up and buried subsequently.

In some ways, it seems better that Bertie was probably killed outright, rather than suffering a lingering death over several weeks and dying in captivity. 

[Ivor Anderson]

2 hours ago, Judith Batchelor said:

it doesn't look as if Bertie's Military Medal was record on his medal card. Is that unusual?

   Not unusual. He ended the war with the 2/5th Bn., so his MM with the 2/8th could have been overlooked. This is why there is a separate MM index card.

  His MIC and medal roll (image from Ancestry) were created to record his service medals:

  

[Judith Batchelor]

3 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

   Not unusual. He ended the war with the 2/5th Bn., so his MM with the 2/8th could have been overlooked. This is why there is a separate MM index card.

  His MIC and medal roll (image from Ancestry) were created to record his service medals:

  

Thanks, that makes sense.

[RaySearching]

Bertie 'Bert' is commemorated on St Helens Church war memorial Cliffe Kent

Images by/from Kent Fallen       note his MM is recorded /inscribed on the memorial

Ray

 

[PRC]

On 04/11/2022 at 11:59, Judith Batchelor said:

your expertise

I wish - so much has come from the free help and guidance from the real experts on the forum that it is nice to be able to give a little something back.

I think the reference to him being a prisoner of war on the pension application probably come about from a mis-understanding on the part of the widow about the letter she received from the International Committee of the Red Cross in September 1918. To be honest the note on the ICRC card isn't very clear, so I suspect a totally understandable misunderstanding!

When she applies for a pension in March 1919 that is the date given by her for the death of her husband.

Another document that I don't think has been mentioned so far is the entry for Bertie Batchelor in the Register of Soldiers Effects. This is a financial ledger rather than a list of his personal belongings and gives details of when, how much and to whom the balance of his pay and his war gratuity was sent. Thanks to Ancestry.co.uk being free to access this weekend, I took a look.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

The ledger contents would have drawn on his army records and seems that when the balance of his pay was sent to his widow Ethel in May 1919 his death was still officially presumed to have occurred on or after the 21st March 1918 - a change of date wouuld have affected the balance of pay due, and I suspect his widow would not have lightly foregone three extra weeks pay.

On 04/11/2022 at 11:59, Judith Batchelor said:

Since the Germans identified Bertie and buried him, is it surprising that his grave was not marked? Is it a case that it just became lost in the chaos of war?

Interestingly the other three men I identified that were on the same 14th April 1918 list have grave locations given but are now recorded as having no known graves. As you've discovered with the difference in the quality of the information provided in the war diaries of the 2/5th compared to the 2/8th, so much of it comes down to the individuals involved. It would be nice to think that burial of their own dead by British prisoners of war being used as slave labour to clear the battlefield would have been done with more care than that done by the German second line units who took over the occupation of the territory when the front line moved to the west, but it can't be taken for granted. And yes the area was heavilly fought over again in September 1918, so graves could have been destroyed. Another factor to take into account was that while I was researching someone else recently who died in October 1918 I came across an appendix in his units war diary. It was a memo from a high up commanding that the practice of stealing crosses from graveyards for firewood must stop immediately. If the British were doing it to keep warm, I wouldn't have thought any other Army in the field were above such things.

Unfortunately I've seen records for men who were buried by their own side where much more precise details were given as to the location of the grave but they are now remembered on a memorial to those with no grave. And 300 metres south east of Hargicourt is probably more like 250 to 350 metres between SSE and ESE of a building on the outskirts of Hargicourt, so could be a couple of thousand square metres where potentially he could have been buried.

The CWGC website has 61 men of the 2/5th listed as having died on the 21st March 1918. Most have no known grave.

Of the few that do:-

277718 Lance Corporal Ernest Squire Beckett is buried at Le Cateau Military Cemetery.

The CWGC webpage for that Cemetery records Le Cateau-Cambrésis and the country to the west of it was the scene of a battle fought by the British II Corps on 26 August 1914 against a greatly superior German force. The town remained in German hands from that date until the evening of 10 October 1918, when it was rushed by the 5th Connaught Rangers and finally cleared a week later. During the war Le Cateau had been a German railhead and the site of an important hospital centre. The military cemetery was laid out by the Germans in February 1916 with separate plots for the Commonwealth and German dead. The Commonwealth plot is the site of almost 700 graves and commemorations of the First World War. The majority of the graves in Plots I, III, IV and V are those of British dead buried by the Germans, mainly from the battleground of 1914; Plot II contains entirely graves of October and November 1918, eight of which were brought in after the Armistice. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/65800/le-cateau-military-cemetery/

Ernest is in Plot 5. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/594729/ernest-squire-beckett/

Soldiers Died in the Great War records his status as Killed in Action.
His ICRC record card shows this extracted from a report from the Germans “Disc sent in from a military hospital… without further details". https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1683/3/2/
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/1683/698/32862/

202094 Private J.H Green was in a communal grave found post-war at Map Sheet reference Sheet 62c  L.25.A.6.8. It contained two other 2/5th Manchester man who died (on the 21st) March 1918 – Privates 202329 C.F. Lloyd and 53909 “Legge”. The grave also contained three other unknown British Soldiers. Private Green was also initially an Unknown British British Soldier.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236638/j-h-green/
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236692/charles-frederick-lloyd/

53909 F. Legg is on CWGC as a 2/7th Battalion man. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236689/f-f-legg/

Image courtesy the Commonwealth war Graves Commission.

202094 Joseph Henry Green is recorded as Killed in Action in Soldiers Died in the Great War. No obvious ICRC record.
202329 Charles Frederick Lloyd is recorded as Killed in Action in Soldiers Died in the Great War. Missing person request received stating he was in 14th Platoon, “D” Company. Unfortunately ICRC subsequently mixed him up with a 22nd Battalion man who died in October 1918. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/292946/3/2/
53909 Frederick Frank Legg is on Soldiers Died in the Great War as Killed in Action. No obvious ICRC record.

Further up the same page is another grave recoved from the same approximately 50 yard by 50 yard location covered by that map reference.  That was for Private 52262 T. Walton, a 2/5th Manchester man who died (21st) March 1918. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236794/thomas-cyril-walton/
ICRC card has a “Negatif envoye” note. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1371853/3/2/

And further down the page is another marked grave from the same map reference for a Private F. Townsend of the 2/7th Battalion. The Grave Registration reports shows he was actually serving with the Royal Engineers and is believed to have died on the 22nd.

They are now all buried at Jeancourt  Communal CeMetery Externsion.  This Grave registration report shows some additional grave numbers in Row D, with the individuals shown as unknowns of the Manchester Regiment who died March 1918. Unfortunately I don’t know how to access their concentration reports, but I note there is both a 2nd Lieutenant of the Manchester Regiment and a Captain of the East Lancashire Regiment. There are a number of individuals here on the forum and elsewhere who have invested a great deal of time and skill into trying to identify the unknown dead , with officers often being a more fruitful path than other ranks.  There is a faint chance that either of those two may have been investigated in the past – there may even be a case working it’s way through the system to get them a named headstone.

Elsewhere 400129 Private Walter Hammond was found postwar in a marked grave at map reference Sheet 62c C.5.b.3.9. His rank was recorded as Bandsman. He was buried with a Durham Light Infantry man. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/335682/walter-hammond/
No obvious ICRC card.

54510 Private F.C. Woodcock of C Company is buried at Bellicourt British Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/238785/f-c-woodcock/

Bellincourt was well behind the front line in March 1918 and was only retaken by the Allies at the start of October 1918. The Cemetery was created subsequently with men recovered from the nearby battlefield. Subsequently graves in other small cemeteries for men who died in the fighting of September and October 1918 were concentrated there. There is no clue on the CWGC webpage for the cemetery as to why a man who died in March 1918 should be buried there, and if the grave was originally elsewhere, why no concentration report is attached to Private Woodcocks’ page.
The Soldiers Died in the Great War entry for Frank Charles Woodcock shows him as killed in action.
No obvious ICRC card.

Someone with more experience with the likes of tmapper may be able to plot those map references and see if any of them bear any resemblance to the stated location of the grave of Bertie.

Hope some of that is of interest,

Peter

Edited 5 November , 2022 by PRC
Typos

[Judith Batchelor]

On 04/11/2022 at 04:46, Ivor Anderson said:

From the 66th Division A&QMG war diary at the end of October 1917 - awards for 5-11th October 1917 - The National Archives' reference WO 95/3123/1

That's amazing! A lot of acts of bravery over those days. Thank you Ivor!

[Judith Batchelor]

19 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Bertie 'Bert' is commemorated on St Helens Church war memorial Cliffe Kent

Images by/from Kent Fallen       note his MM is recorded /inscribed on the memorial

Ray

 

Thank you Ray! The memorial at Cliffe is close to where I grew up. I saw the memorial as a child and always wanted to know more about Bert and his military medal. 

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Judith Batchelor said:

Thank you Ray! The memorial at Cliffe is close to where I grew up. I saw the memorial as a child and always wanted to know more about Bert and his military medal. 

He was a fine looking man and I have gained the impression from the various pieces of information uncovered by all the contributors to this thread, that he was one of those men who, although not naturally someone who might ordinarily have enlisted outside of war, found himself to be well suited to the army.  I think he was demonstrably a good soldier.  Although just one of a very great many, his story is palpably a sad one and epitomises the sheer human waste of industrialised warfare.  Especially in Europe, that was supposed to be more enlightened than a lot of other parts of the world. 

Edited 5 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Judith Batchelor]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

I wish - so much has come from the free help and guidance from the real experts on the forum that it is nice to be able to give a little something back.

I think the reference to him being a prisoner of war on the pension application probably come about from a mis-understanding on the part of the widow about the letter she received from the International Committee of the Red Cross in September 1918. To be honest the note on the ICRC card isn't very clear, so I suspect a totally understandable misunderstanding!

When she applies for a pension in March 1919 that is the date given by her for the death of her husband.

Another document that I don't think hasn't been mentioned so far is the entry for Bertie Batchelor in the Register of Soldiers Effects. This is a financial ledger rather than a list of his personal belongings and gives details of when, how much and to whom the balance of his pay and his war gratuity was sent. Thanks to Ancestry.co.uk being free to access this weekend, I took a look.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

The ledger contents would have drawn on his army records and seems that when the balance of his pay was sent to his widow Ethel in May 1919 his death was still officially presumed to have occurred on or after the 21st March 1918 - a change of date wouuld have affected the balance of pay due, and I suspect his widow would not have lightly foregone three extra weeks pay.

Interestingly the other three men I identified that were on the same 14th April 1918 list have grave locations given but are now recorded as having no known graves. As you've discovered with the difference in the quality of the information provided in the war diaries of the 2/5th compared to the 2/8th, so much of it comes down to the individuals involved. It would be nice to think that burial of their own dead by British prisoners of war being used as slave labour to clear the battlefield would have been done with more care than that done by the German second line units who took over the occupation of the territory when the front line moved to the west, but it can't be taken for granted. And yes the area was heavilly fought over again in September 1918, so graves could have been destroyed. Another factor to take into account was that while I was researching someone else recently who died in October 1918 I came across an appendix in his units war diary. It was a memo from a high up commanding that the practice of stealing crosses from graveyards for firewood must stop immediately. If the British were doing it to keep warm, I wouldn't have thought any other Army in the field were above such things.

Unfortunately I've seen records for men who were buried by their own side where much more precise details were given as to the location of the grave but they are now remembered on a memorial to those with no grave. And 300 metres south east of Hargicourt is probably more like 250 to 350 metres between SSE and ESE of a building on the outskirts of Hargicourt, so could be a couple of thousand square metres where potentially he could have been buried.

The CWGC website has 61 men of the 2/5th listed as having died on the 21st March 1918. Most have no known grave.

Of the few that do:-

277718 Lance Corporal Ernest Squire Beckett is buried at Le Cateau Military Cemetery.

The CWGC webpage for that Cemetery records Le Cateau-Cambrésis and the country to the west of it was the scene of a battle fought by the British II Corps on 26 August 1914 against a greatly superior German force. The town remained in German hands from that date until the evening of 10 October 1918, when it was rushed by the 5th Connaught Rangers and finally cleared a week later. During the war Le Cateau had been a German railhead and the site of an important hospital centre. The military cemetery was laid out by the Germans in February 1916 with separate plots for the Commonwealth and German dead. The Commonwealth plot is the site of almost 700 graves and commemorations of the First World War. The majority of the graves in Plots I, III, IV and V are those of British dead buried by the Germans, mainly from the battleground of 1914; Plot II contains entirely graves of October and November 1918, eight of which were brought in after the Armistice. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/65800/le-cateau-military-cemetery/

Ernest is in Plot 5. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/594729/ernest-squire-beckett/

Soldiers Died in the Great War records his status as Killed in Action.
His ICRC record card shows this extracted from a report from the Germans “Disc sent in from a military hospital… without further details". https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1683/3/2/
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/1683/698/32862/

202094 Private J.H Green was in a communal grave found post-war at Map Sheet reference Sheet 62c  L.25.A.6.8. It contained two other 2/5th Manchester man who died (on the 21st) March 1918 – Privates 202329 C.F. Lloyd and 53909 “Legge”. The grave also contained three other unknown British Soldiers. Private Green was also initially an Unknown British British Soldier.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236638/j-h-green/
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236692/charles-frederick-lloyd/

53909 F. Legg is on CWGC as a 2/7th Battalion man. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236689/f-f-legg/

Image courtesy the Commonwealth war Graves Commission.

202094 Joseph Henry Green is recorded as Killed in Action in Soldiers Died in the Great War. No obvious ICRC record.
202329 Charles Frederick Lloyd is recorded as Killed in Action in Soldiers Died in the Great War. Missing person request received stating he was in 14th Platoon, “D” Company. Unfortunately ICRC subsequently mixed him up with a 22nd Battalion man who died in October 1918. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/292946/3/2/
53909 Frederick Frank Legg is on Soldiers Died in the Great War as Killed in Action. No obvious ICRC record.

Further up the same page is another grave recoved from the same approximately 50 yard by 50 yard location covered by that map reference.  That was for Private 52262 T. Walton, a 2/5th Manchester man who died (21st) March 1918. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236794/thomas-cyril-walton/
ICRC card has a “Negatif envoye” note. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1371853/3/2/

And further down the page is another marked grave from the same map reference for a Private F. Townsend of the 2/7th Battalion. The Grave Registration reports shows he was actually serving with the Royal Engineers and is believed to have died on the 22nd.

They are now all buried at Jeancourt  Communal CeMetery Externsion.  This Grave registration report shows some additional grave numbers in Row D, with the individuals shown as unknowns of the Manchester Regiment who died March 1918. Unfortunately I don’t know how to access their concentration reports, but I note there is both a 2nd Lieutenant of the Manchester Regiment and a Captain of the East Lancashire Regiment. There are a number of individuals here on the forum and elsewhere who have invested a great deal of time and skill into trying to identify the unknown dead , with officers often being a more fruitful path than other ranks.  There is a faint chance that either of those two may have been investigated in the past – there may even be a case working it’s way through the system to get them a named headstone.

Elsewhere 400129 Private Walter Hammond was found postwar in a marked grave at map reference Sheet 62c C.5.b.3.9. His rank was recorded as Bandsman. He was buried with a Durham Light Infantry man. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/335682/walter-hammond/
No obvious ICRC card.

54510 Private F.C. Woodcock of C Company is buried at Bellicourt British Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/238785/f-c-woodcock/

Bellincourt was well behind the front line in March 1918 and was only retaken by the Allies at the start of October 1918. The Cemetery was created subsequently with men recovered from the nearby battlefield. Subsequently graves in other small cemeteries for men who died in the fighting of September and October 1918 were concentrated there. There is no clue on the CWGC webpage for the cemetery as to why a man who died in March 1918 should be buried there, and if the grave was originally elsewhere, why no concentration report is attached to Private Woodcocks’ page.
The Soldiers Died in the Great War entry for Frank Charles Woodcock shows him as killed in action.
No obvious ICRC card.

Someone with more experience with the likes of tmapper may be able to plot those map references and see if any of them bear any resemblance to the stated location of the grave of Bertie.

Hope some of that is of interest,

Peter

Peter, the information you have provided is of great interest. It is sobering to think that so few of the 61 men of the 2/5th who were killed that day have a known burial place and it is tantalising to think that one of the "unknown" Manchester Regiment burial entries could refer to Bertie, though I guess the chances are slim. However, it would make sense that he would have been found with others who died in the same attack and wouldn't have been buried alone. It is not surprising really that the location of graves were lost in such heavily contested land. The entry you found in the war diaries about the wooden crosses being used for firewood illustrates the desperate conditions at the time. I would be very interested if tmapper or anyone else could plot these map references.   

With the poor hadwriting, I had missed the reference to Bertie being recorded as a prisoner of war in the Register of Soldiers' Effects. Do you think the extra payment in December 1919 of 4 10 relates to those three weeks? I think Bertie's widow knew he was killed on March 21st because one of his friends had reported seeing him dead in a trench. 

Thank you so much once again for your research, expertise and insights!

Judith

[Judith Batchelor]

19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He was a fine looking man and I have gained the impression from the various pieces of information uncovered by all the contributors to this thread, that he was one of those men who, although not naturally someone who might ordinarily have enlisted outside of war, found himself to be well suited for the army.  I think he was demonstrably a good soldier.  Although just one of very great many, his story is palpably a sad one and epitomises the sheer human waste of industrialised warfare.  Especially in Europe, that was supposed to be more enlightened than a lot of other parts of the world. 

I am certainly very proud of him and will make sure that he will not be forgotten. I am a genealogist and have my own family history website, (www.genealogyjude.com), where I write articles on all sorts of topics to do with family history. These have included articles on my uncle, an RAF pilot, who was shot down over France in 1941 and died in captivity in 1942. I have also written about his squadron (54) during the Battle of Britain. Similarly, I have a relative who died in Operation Market Garden whose life I have researched. I am now trying to find out more about my WW1 relatives and record their stories too. I like to pass on tips and advice to others who are researching their own ancestors who served in the military. I will now begin to write up Bertie's story and of course, I will be giving much credit to you guys on the forum. In these past few days I have learnt an incredible amount and I am humbled by the generosity you have shown in sharing your time and expertise. Thank you!

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Judith Batchelor said:

I am certainly very proud of him and will make sure that he will not be forgotten. I am a genealogist and have my own family history website, (www.genealogyjude.com), where I write articles on all sorts of topics to do with family history. These have included articles on my uncle, an RAF pilot, who was shot down over France in 1941 and died in captivity in 1942. I have also written about his squadron (54) during the Battle of Britain. Similarly, I have a relative who died in Operation Market Garden whose life I have researched. I am now trying to find out more about my WW1 relatives and record their stories too. I like to pass on tips and advice to others who are researching their own ancestors who served in the military. I will now begin to write up Bertie's story and of course, I will be giving much credit to you guys on the forum. In these past few days I have learnt an incredible amount and I am humbled by the generosity you have shown in sharing your time and expertise. Thank you!

I’m sure that all forum contributors will feel that it’s been a pleasure, Judith.  We learn of so many touching stories on this forum and some perhaps stimulate more because of the greater information that through various factors it has been possible to uncover.  For me your forebear has been one of these.  I feel that I would like to have met him. 

[PRC]

42 minutes ago, Judith Batchelor said:

With the poor hadwriting, I had missed the reference to Bertie being recorded as a prisoner of war in the Register of Soldiers' Effects.

I believe in full it should read "21 3 18 Death presumed France" - no reference to a prisoner of war.

42 minutes ago, Judith Batchelor said:

Do you think the extra payment in December 1919 of 4 10 relates to those three weeks?

Thats his War Gratuity - a one of payment. For a Private it was £3 for the first 12 months of service and then goes up in increments for each full month service. Yet another reason why his widow might have wanted his death to have been officially treated as having occurred on the 14th April rather than the 21st March.

Because of the patchy survival of service records as you've probably begun to realise anyone studying ancestors service in the Great War has to use every trick in the book to tease out every last drop of information we can. To this end forum member @ss002d6252 (Craig) has developed a War Gratuity Calculator to work back from the date of death and the amount of the gratuity to come up with a four week period when someone enlisted or was mobilised. In this case we know when Bertie was mobilised, (19th January 1917), so I'm wondering if Craig can reverse engineer it to work out the four week period during which Bertie is believed to have died. Depending on when the relevant break point falls then may not add any clarity - and of course the Army had a certain financial incentive to make the death earlier should they have been that way inclined. But if a Gratuity of £4 10s means he would have had to die before the end of March then tips the balance back towards the 21st March 1918 as his date of death.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 5 November , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[Judith Batchelor]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m sure that all forum contributors will feel that it’s been a pleasure, Judith.  We learn of so many touching stories on this forum and some perhaps stimulate more because of the greater information that through various factors it has been possible to uncover.  For me your forebear has been one of these.  I feel that I would like to have met him. 

I confess that I feel that way about many of the people whose lives I have researched. I would also have so many questions to ask of them.

It is very fortunate that Bertie's service records have survived, as they have made it possible to learn much more about his story.  It is also unusual that he appears in the Red Cross records. I have a subscription to the British Newspaper Archive and I quite recently found the references to him appearing before the Military Tribunals. It explains why he didn't serve until 1917 and changed regiment. I am thrilled that I now know why he was awarded his military medal, even if there is not an individual citation. 

My grateful thanks to you and all the other contributors for your help.