Change of Regiment, Military Tribunals, Military Medal

[Judith Batchelor]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

I believe in full it should read "21 3 18 Death presumed France" - no reference to a prisoner of war.

Thats his War Gratuity - a one of payment. For a Private it was £3 for the first 12 months of service and then goes up in incrments for each full month service. Yet another reason why his widow might have wanted his death to have been officially treated as having occurred on the 14th April rather than the 21st March.

Because of the patchy survival of service records as you've probably begun to realise anyone studying ancestors service in the Great War has to use every trick in the book to tease out every last drop of information we can. To this end forum member @ss002d6252 (Craig) has developed a War Gratuity Calculator to work back from the date of death and the amount of the gratuity to come up with a four week period when someone enlisted or was mobilised. In this case we know when Bertie was mobilised, (19th January 1917), so I'm wondering if Craig can reverse engineer it to work out the four week period during which Bertie is believed to have died. Depending on when the relevant break point falls then may not add any clarity - and of course the Army had a certain financial incentive to make the death earlier should they have been that way inclined. But if a Gratuity of £4 10s means he would have had to die before the end of March then tips the balance back towards the 21st March 1918 as his date of death.

Cheers,
Peter

The War Gratuity Calculator sounds a very clever trick! I am really very lucky that Bertie's service papers have survived so I have more specific details. Thanks for your clarification. 

 

Judith

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Because of the patchy survival of service records as you've probably begun to realise anyone studying ancestors service in the Great War has to use every trick in the book to tease out every last drop of information we can. To this end forum member @ss002d6252 (Craig) has developed a War Gratuity Calculator to work back from the date of death and the amount of the gratuity to come up with a four week period when someone enlisted or was mobilised. In this case we know when Bertie was mobilised, (19th January 1917), so I'm wondering if Craig can reverse engineer it to work out the four week period during which Bertie is believed to have died. Depending on when the relevant break point falls then may not add any clarity - and of course the Army had a certain financial incentive to make the death earlier should they have been that way inclined. But if a Gratuity of £4 10s means he would have had to die before the end of March then tips the balance back towards the 21st March 1918 as his date of death.

£4 10s net is £6 10s gross, so 15 months service.

This would cover death in the month from 19 March 1918 for the death, based on 19 January 1917.

Craig

[Judith Batchelor]

20 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

£4 10s net is £6 10s gross, so 15 months service.

This would cover death in the month from 19 March 1918 for the death, based on 19 January 1917.

Craig

Thanks Craig for the confirmation. Cheers! 

[PRC]

16 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

This would cover death in the month from 19 March 1918 for the death, based on 19 January 1917.

Thanks Craig.

Can I ask you and @Matlock1418 what may be a very dumb question? One where you think you know the answer but then start to wonder if it's just an assumption you made along the way

Regardless of whether he died in March or April 1918, the news of his death looks like it filters through from the Germans in early August 1918 - a report is date stamped Geneva 8th August 1918. Presumably it would have quickly been passed on to the British authorities.

Would that final 28 weeks of payment of the separation allowance start from the date of receipt by the British authorities or the date of death?

In my head it's the former as that gives them time to sort out a pension - and as the pension card shows payment commencing in March 1919, that would appear to back that up. There is also no mention of any hardship payments that needed to be re-imbursed to a local tribunal. Set against that is the issue of cost and the potential for anomalies, with two women in otherwise identical circumstances receiving total payments that could vary significantly, bearing in mind pensions were often less than the separation allowance.

However going from a date of death, no matter how long the delay in receiving notification or eliminating the possibility he might still be alive, would also create anomalies.

So which way did the authorities deal with it?

Cheers,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

30 minutes ago, PRC said:

Would that final 28 weeks of payment of the separation allowance start from the date of receipt by the British authorities or the date of death?

The 26 weeks would start from the point notification made it back from his unit to say that he was missing and presumed dead.

Craig

[PRC]

7 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The 26 weeks would start from the point notification made it back from his unit to say that he was missing and presumed dead.

From the service record we know when he was recorded missing, but that's not the same as presumed dead. I would have thought that was a two step process in most cases - if their fate was known then missing wouldn't be appropriate. Missing presumed killed seems to be more of a WW2 status.

I'd suggest in this case receipt of information from the Germans via the ICRC was what triggered the second part of the process, (August \ September 1918), leading to 26 weeks continuation of the Separation Payment following by the award of the pension in March 1919. Anything earlier leaves a gap.

Cheers,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

Missing presumed killed seems to be more of a WW2 status.

Missing presumed dead is seen on the effects registers (and on some unit casualty returns).

The 26 week run-on was paid on the presumption that they were missing (and presumed dead) from the point of notification by the unit. If that decision later changed, then the records would be amended to show he was, in fact, alive (and usually a POW).

Albert was posted as missing, but then it seems he was later declared as a POW.

Why the pension started only in 1919 is not presently clear, but the MoP only received notification of the death in February 1919.

Craig

[PRC]

44 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Missing presumed dead is seen on the effects registers (and on some unit casualty returns).

Thanks Craig

I'd expect to see that sort of status on the effects register, as presumably there would be no point creating an entry until his official status had been decided, but I don't think I've ever seen it in the initial casualty reports, just updates and revisions. But as is usually the case I wasn't specifically looking for it so may simply have failed to notice it.

I was trying to apply some logic to it in order to close the timeline gaps, but should have known that was a fools errand

So still the very slightest possibility that he may have been a prisoner until mid-April and then was "killed", (rather than died), rather than it all being a misunderstanding and he died in a trench on the openining day of the German Spring Offensive for which we have an eye witness. I'm coming increasingly to the conclusion that we shall probably never know the truth of all the ins and out.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited 5 November , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[ss002d6252]

Someone seemed to think he was a PoW at some point. Whether that was a true report of it is yet to be determined (and may never be).

Craig

[PRC]

On 05/11/2022 at 12:27, PRC said:

I wish - so much has come from the free help and guidance from the real experts on the forum that it is nice to be able to give a little something back.

I think the reference to him being a prisoner of war on the pension application probably come about from a mis-understanding on the part of the widow about the letter she received from the International Committee of the Red Cross in September 1918. To be honest the note on the ICRC card isn't very clear, so I suspect a totally understandable misunderstanding!

When she applies for a pension in March 1919 that is the date given by her for the death of her husband.

Another document that I don't think has been mentioned so far is the entry for Bertie Batchelor in the Register of Soldiers Effects. This is a financial ledger rather than a list of his personal belongings and gives details of when, how much and to whom the balance of his pay and his war gratuity was sent. Thanks to Ancestry.co.uk being free to access this weekend, I took a look.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

The ledger contents would have drawn on his army records and seems that when the balance of his pay was sent to his widow Ethel in May 1919 his death was still officially presumed to have occurred on or after the 21st March 1918 - a change of date wouuld have affected the balance of pay due, and I suspect his widow would not have lightly foregone three extra weeks pay.

Interestingly the other three men I identified that were on the same 14th April 1918 list have grave locations given but are now recorded as having no known graves. As you've discovered with the difference in the quality of the information provided in the war diaries of the 2/5th compared to the 2/8th, so much of it comes down to the individuals involved. It would be nice to think that burial of their own dead by British prisoners of war being used as slave labour to clear the battlefield would have been done with more care than that done by the German second line units who took over the occupation of the territory when the front line moved to the west, but it can't be taken for granted. And yes the area was heavilly fought over again in September 1918, so graves could have been destroyed. Another factor to take into account was that while I was researching someone else recently who died in October 1918 I came across an appendix in his units war diary. It was a memo from a high up commanding that the practice of stealing crosses from graveyards for firewood must stop immediately. If the British were doing it to keep warm, I wouldn't have thought any other Army in the field were above such things.

Unfortunately I've seen records for men who were buried by their own side where much more precise details were given as to the location of the grave but they are now remembered on a memorial to those with no grave. And 300 metres south east of Hargicourt is probably more like 250 to 350 metres between SSE and ESE of a building on the outskirts of Hargicourt, so could be a couple of thousand square metres where potentially he could have been buried.

The CWGC website has 61 men of the 2/5th listed as having died on the 21st March 1918. Most have no known grave.

Of the few that do:-

277718 Lance Corporal Ernest Squire Beckett is buried at Le Cateau Military Cemetery.

The CWGC webpage for that Cemetery records Le Cateau-Cambrésis and the country to the west of it was the scene of a battle fought by the British II Corps on 26 August 1914 against a greatly superior German force. The town remained in German hands from that date until the evening of 10 October 1918, when it was rushed by the 5th Connaught Rangers and finally cleared a week later. During the war Le Cateau had been a German railhead and the site of an important hospital centre. The military cemetery was laid out by the Germans in February 1916 with separate plots for the Commonwealth and German dead. The Commonwealth plot is the site of almost 700 graves and commemorations of the First World War. The majority of the graves in Plots I, III, IV and V are those of British dead buried by the Germans, mainly from the battleground of 1914; Plot II contains entirely graves of October and November 1918, eight of which were brought in after the Armistice. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/65800/le-cateau-military-cemetery/

Ernest is in Plot 5. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/594729/ernest-squire-beckett/

Soldiers Died in the Great War records his status as Killed in Action.
His ICRC record card shows this extracted from a report from the Germans “Disc sent in from a military hospital… without further details". https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1683/3/2/
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/1683/698/32862/

202094 Private J.H Green was in a communal grave found post-war at Map Sheet reference Sheet 62c  L.25.A.6.8. It contained two other 2/5th Manchester man who died (on the 21st) March 1918 – Privates 202329 C.F. Lloyd and 53909 “Legge”. The grave also contained three other unknown British Soldiers. Private Green was also initially an Unknown British British Soldier.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236638/j-h-green/
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236692/charles-frederick-lloyd/

53909 F. Legg is on CWGC as a 2/7th Battalion man. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236689/f-f-legg/

Image courtesy the Commonwealth war Graves Commission.

202094 Joseph Henry Green is recorded as Killed in Action in Soldiers Died in the Great War. No obvious ICRC record.
202329 Charles Frederick Lloyd is recorded as Killed in Action in Soldiers Died in the Great War. Missing person request received stating he was in 14th Platoon, “D” Company. Unfortunately ICRC subsequently mixed him up with a 22nd Battalion man who died in October 1918. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/292946/3/2/
53909 Frederick Frank Legg is on Soldiers Died in the Great War as Killed in Action. No obvious ICRC record.

Further up the same page is another grave recoved from the same approximately 50 yard by 50 yard location covered by that map reference.  That was for Private 52262 T. Walton, a 2/5th Manchester man who died (21st) March 1918. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/236794/thomas-cyril-walton/
ICRC card has a “Negatif envoye” note. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1371853/3/2/

And further down the page is another marked grave from the same map reference for a Private F. Townsend of the 2/7th Battalion. The Grave Registration reports shows he was actually serving with the Royal Engineers and is believed to have died on the 22nd.

They are now all buried at Jeancourt  Communal CeMetery Externsion.  This Grave registration report shows some additional grave numbers in Row D, with the individuals shown as unknowns of the Manchester Regiment who died March 1918. Unfortunately I don’t know how to access their concentration reports, but I note there is both a 2nd Lieutenant of the Manchester Regiment and a Captain of the East Lancashire Regiment. There are a number of individuals here on the forum and elsewhere who have invested a great deal of time and skill into trying to identify the unknown dead , with officers often being a more fruitful path than other ranks.  There is a faint chance that either of those two may have been investigated in the past – there may even be a case working it’s way through the system to get them a named headstone.

Elsewhere 400129 Private Walter Hammond was found postwar in a marked grave at map reference Sheet 62c C.5.b.3.9. His rank was recorded as Bandsman. He was buried with a Durham Light Infantry man. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/335682/walter-hammond/
No obvious ICRC card.

54510 Private F.C. Woodcock of C Company is buried at Bellicourt British Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/238785/f-c-woodcock/

Bellincourt was well behind the front line in March 1918 and was only retaken by the Allies at the start of October 1918. The Cemetery was created subsequently with men recovered from the nearby battlefield. Subsequently graves in other small cemeteries for men who died in the fighting of September and October 1918 were concentrated there. There is no clue on the CWGC webpage for the cemetery as to why a man who died in March 1918 should be buried there, and if the grave was originally elsewhere, why no concentration report is attached to Private Woodcocks’ page.
The Soldiers Died in the Great War entry for Frank Charles Woodcock shows him as killed in action.
No obvious ICRC card.

Someone with more experience with the likes of tmapper may be able to plot those map references and see if any of them bear any resemblance to the stated location of the grave of Bertie.

Hope some of that is of interest,

Peter

I wonder if one of the forum tmapper experts like @WhiteStarLine could map those co-ordinates to see how they relate to Hargicourt?

Hargicourt itself has a British Cemetery, which the CWGC webpage describes as located "Hargicourt is a village about 16 kilometres north-west of St Quentin and about 3 kilometres west of the main road from St Quentin to Cambrai. The Cemetery is at the western end of the village, on the south side of the road to Peronne." https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/35200/hargicourt-british-cemetery/
Checking out a Grave Registation document for a couple of men buried there, the cemetery is shown as located at map reference Sheet 62c. L.10.a.3.9.

Cheers,
Peter

[Michelle Young]

Hargicourt also has a communal cemetery extension. 
 

https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/35201/hargicourt-communal-cemetery-extension/

[WhiteStarLine]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

co-ordinates to see how they relate to Hargicourt

Yes, that location is definitely in Hargicourt. 

[PRC]

55 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Yes, that location is definitely in Hargicourt. 

Hi WSL - thanks for taking a look.

OP lost a relative in the opening phase of the German Spring Offensive serving with the 2/5th Bn. Manchester Regiment - we're on our third page of the thread in part because of the query over the exact date
Notification was received from the Germans via the ICRC that he was buried 300 metres south-east of Hargicourt.
As fas as CWGC is concerned he has no known grave.

The strongest candidate for the date of his death is the 21st March 1918. Post-war men of his Battalion and other units of the Brigade who died on that day were recovered from marked shared graves. Some were named at the time of the recovery, others were identified as part of the concentration process and others remain unknown soldiers of the Manchester Regiment. The key ones I could find were all at originally at map reference Sheet 62c  L.25.A.6.8.

No guarantee any of them are the OP's missing relative, but would be good to establish where that map reference was in relation to Hargicourt.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[jay dubaya]

The 2/5th Manchesters were in the front line (left) and had outposts 50 yards into No Man's Land, both the battalion and 199th Inf Bde war diaries note the 2/5th at The Egg (62c.L.11.b.65.50). Enemy bombardment was heard to the far left at 2.30am reaching the 2/5th and 2/6th front line positions at 4.45am with a large proportion of gas shells reported. At 9am the 2/5th Manchesters report the forward posts are OK and listening patrols are within 50 yards of enemy's wire - they report no work going on but considerable noise coming from the trenches. As dawn broke the mist had thickened and visibility was poor. At 10.45am the support battalion (2/7th Manchesters) note a 5 hours march to reach battle stations wearing box resporators. At 11.25am the 2/5th Manchesters report that the enemy had appeared from north of Villeret Ridge and had supprised the forward posts. At this time the OC 2/5th retired to the Red Line (Cote Wood) with 30 avaiable men. At 12.45 pm the right support battalion (2/7th) reported enemy was working round the right flank. At 3pm the enemy attacked Fervague Farm (62c.L.a.7.9) and was in full possession of the ridge by 3.45pm.

Given the ICRC report that Bertie was buried 300 meters south east of Hagricourt and the eyewitness who claims he saw Bertie dead in a trench, this would suggest that he was killed sometime between the initial bombardment at 4.45am and 11.25am - after this time the 2/5th and 2/6th battalions are clear from the south east environs of Hagricourt leaving their dead behind.

Having had a good look through the burial reports from several cemeteries in the vicinity there are several unnamed burials of 2/5th Battalion men (including 2 Lance Corporals buried it may appear by the Germans, now buried at Assevillers MC), sadly the co-ordinates from where their bodies were recovered are far away from 300 meters south east of Hagricourt - the same can be said of those highlighted by PRC abaove. The 2/5th Battalion's position at The Egg and their outpost line are 300 meters south east of Hagricourt. An unknown British soldier was recovered from an unmarked grave at 62c.L.11.b.6.8 on or around 3rd September 1919 and reburied in Plot 1, Row E, Grave 30 at Templeux Le Guerard Cemetery.

(image source WO95/3143 - 199th Inf Bde, courtesy of National Archives via ancestry.co.uk)

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 November , 2022 by jay dubaya
add image source

[Judith Batchelor]

2 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

The 2/5th Manchesters were in the front line (left) and had outposts 50 yards into No Man's Land, both the battalion and 199th Inf Bde war diaries note the 2/5th at The Egg (62c.L.11.b.65.50). Enemy bombardment was heard to the far left at 2.30am reaching the 2/5th and 2/6th front line positions at 4.45am with a large proportion of gas shells reported. At 9am the 2/5th Manchesters report the forward posts are OK and listening patrols are within 50 yards of enemy's wire - they report no work going on but considerable noise coming from the trenches. As dawn broke the mist had thickened and visibility was poor. At 10.45am the support battalion (2/7th Manchesters) note a 5 hours march to reach battle stations wearing box resporators. At 11.25am the 2/5th Manchesters report that the enemy had appeared from north of Villeret Ridge and had supprised the forward posts. At this time the OC 2/5th retired to the Red Line (Cote Wood) with 30 avaiable men. At 12.45 pm the right support battalion (2/7th) reported enemy was working round the right flank. At 3pm the enemy attacked Fervague Farm (62c.L.a.7.9) and was in full possession of the ridge by 3.45pm.

Given the ICRC report that Bertie was buried 300 meters south east of Hagricourt and the eyewitness who claims he saw Bertie dead in a trench, this would suggest that he was killed sometime between the initial bombardment at 4.45am and 11.25am - after this time the 2/5th and 2/6th battalions are clear from the south east environs of Hagricourt leaving their dead behind.

Having had a good look through the burial reports from several cemeteries in the vicinity there are several unnamed burials of 2/5th Battalion men (including 2 Lance Corporals buried it may appear by the Germans, now buried at Assevillers MC), sadly the co-ordinates from where their bodies were recovered are far away from 300 meters south east of Hagricourt - the same can be said of those highlighted by PRC abaove. The 2/5th Battalion's position at The Egg and their outpost line are 300 meters south east of Hagricourt. An unknown British soldier was recovered from an unmarked grave at 62c.L.11.b.6.8 on or around 3rd September 1919 and reburied in Plot 1, Row E, Grave 30 at Templeux Le Guerard Cemetery.

(image source WO95/3143 - 199th Inf Bde, courtesy of National Archives via ancestry.co.uk)

 

 

 

 

Thanks to you all for your detective work. 

 

2 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

The 2/5th Manchesters were in the front line (left) and had outposts 50 yards into No Man's Land, both the battalion and 199th Inf Bde war diaries note the 2/5th at The Egg (62c.L.11.b.65.50). Enemy bombardment was heard to the far left at 2.30am reaching the 2/5th and 2/6th front line positions at 4.45am with a large proportion of gas shells reported. At 9am the 2/5th Manchesters report the forward posts are OK and listening patrols are within 50 yards of enemy's wire - they report no work going on but considerable noise coming from the trenches. As dawn broke the mist had thickened and visibility was poor. At 10.45am the support battalion (2/7th Manchesters) note a 5 hours march to reach battle stations wearing box resporators. At 11.25am the 2/5th Manchesters report that the enemy had appeared from north of Villeret Ridge and had supprised the forward posts. At this time the OC 2/5th retired to the Red Line (Cote Wood) with 30 avaiable men. At 12.45 pm the right support battalion (2/7th) reported enemy was working round the right flank. At 3pm the enemy attacked Fervague Farm (62c.L.a.7.9) and was in full possession of the ridge by 3.45pm.

Given the ICRC report that Bertie was buried 300 meters south east of Hagricourt and the eyewitness who claims he saw Bertie dead in a trench, this would suggest that he was killed sometime between the initial bombardment at 4.45am and 11.25am - after this time the 2/5th and 2/6th battalions are clear from the south east environs of Hagricourt leaving their dead behind.

Having had a good look through the burial reports from several cemeteries in the vicinity there are several unnamed burials of 2/5th Battalion men (including 2 Lance Corporals buried it may appear by the Germans, now buried at Assevillers MC), sadly the co-ordinates from where their bodies were recovered are far away from 300 meters south east of Hagricourt - the same can be said of those highlighted by PRC abaove. The 2/5th Battalion's position at The Egg and their outpost line are 300 meters south east of Hagricourt. An unknown British soldier was recovered from an unmarked grave at 62c.L.11.b.6.8 on or around 3rd September 1919 and reburied in Plot 1, Row E, Grave 30 at Templeux Le Guerard Cemetery.

(image source WO95/3143 - 199th Inf Bde, courtesy of National Archives via ancestry.co.uk)

 

 

 

 

Thanks to you all for your brilliant detective work. I now have a much clearer idea of what happened to Bertie. Am I correct in thinking that there is a possibility that the unknown soldier buried at Templeux Le Guerard could be him, given the description of where he was buried that the Germans supplied? If so, does the British government ever investigate cases like these to identify remains? 

Thanks again, I know so much more about Bertie and his life than I did when I began this thread.

[jay dubaya]

Of the cemeteries I checked Square L.11 only turned up 8 body recoveries post war and all were reburied at Templeux Le Gaurand. 3 were recovered with names on GRU registered crosses, a further 4 were recovered with names on temporary unregistered  crosses and the UBS I listed above with no cross. The seven named were all casualties from later in the war when the enemy were pushed back over the lost ground.

The CWGC nor the MoD exhume known/marked graves for identification purposes. Yes there is a possibility of the grave been that of Bertie’s, but it should be born in mind it could be the grave a countless others. Sadly there is little to no chance of ever identifying Bertie’s grave, he could still be waiting to be found where the Germans buried him in April 1918. If that ever happens- and often it does, there is the chance DNA could identify the remains.

[Judith Batchelor]

8 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Of the cemeteries I checked Square L.11 only turned up 8 body recoveries post war and all were reburied at Templeux Le Gaurand. 3 were recovered with names on GRU registered crosses, a further 4 were recovered with names on temporary unregistered  crosses and the UBS I listed above with no cross. The seven named were all casualties from later in the war when the enemy were pushed back over the lost ground.

The CWGC nor the MoD exhume known/marked graves for identification purposes. Yes there is a possibility of the grave been that of Bertie’s, but it should be born in mind it could be the grave a countless others. Sadly there is little to no chance of ever identifying Bertie’s grave, he could still be waiting to be found where the Germans buried him in April 1918. If that ever happens- and often it does, there is the chance DNA could identify the remains.

 

9 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Of the cemeteries I checked Square L.11 only turned up 8 body recoveries post war and all were reburied at Templeux Le Gaurand. 3 were recovered with names on GRU registered crosses, a further 4 were recovered with names on temporary unregistered  crosses and the UBS I listed above with no cross. The seven named were all casualties from later in the war when the enemy were pushed back over the lost ground.

The CWGC nor the MoD exhume known/marked graves for identification purposes. Yes there is a possibility of the grave been that of Bertie’s, but it should be born in mind it could be the grave a countless others. Sadly there is little to no chance of ever identifying Bertie’s grave, he could still be waiting to be found where the Germans buried him in April 1918. If that ever happens- and often it does, there is the chance DNA could identify the remains.

Thanks Jay for the additional information. It’s interesting to speculate and as you say, you never know, one day Bertie might be found. Where can I view the cemetery registers that you found? 

[jay dubaya]

They are available via the CWGC database, it is possible to download complete sets for an entire cemetery which offers the view of all those buried there - not just the named but the nameless, there is often further details and clues that do not appear on headstones that we see when we walk through the cemeteries. The battlefields were searched systematically several times post war and as cemeteries became full they were closed to any further burials. As a result of this some cemeteries remain open to burials, remins found during later years can show a soldier buried many miles from where he was found. With the online release of this historical archive it it possible to identify some of those who have been for the most part, buried as unknowns, this archive will continue to uncover these and further annomalies that appear from time to time.

The particular sheets below deal with those remains that were recovered post war and concentrated from their battlefield graves, smaller cemeteries etc into larger manageable cemeteries.

(doc 2052734)

 

(doc 1966782)

 

(doc 1966806)

 

[Judith Batchelor]

On 07/11/2022 at 01:04, jay dubaya said:

They are available via the CWGC database, it is possible to download complete sets for an entire cemetery which offers the view of all those buried there - not just the named but the nameless, there is often further details and clues that do not appear on headstones that we see when we walk through the cemeteries. The battlefields were searched systematically several times post war and as cemeteries became full they were closed to any further burials. As a result of this some cemeteries remain open to burials, remins found during later years can show a soldier buried many miles from where he was found. With the online release of this historical archive it it possible to identify some of those who have been for the most part, buried as unknowns, this archive will continue to uncover these and further annomalies that appear from time to time.

The particular sheets below deal with those remains that were recovered post war and concentrated from their battlefield graves, smaller cemeteries etc into larger manageable cemeteries.

(doc 2052734)

 

(doc 1966782)

 

(doc 1966806)

 

Thanks for supplying further details Jay.

[Judith Batchelor]

Many thanks to everyone who answer my queries about Bertie and his time in service. I have now written up the first part of my story into his life. If this would be of interest, the link is here:

https://genealogyjude.com/2022/11/13/bertie-tracing-a-first-world-war-soldier/

 

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Judith Batchelor said:

Many thanks to everyone who answer my queries about Bertie and his time in service. I have now written up the first part of my story into his life. If this would be of interest, the link is here:

https://genealogyjude.com/2022/11/13/bertie-tracing-a-first-world-war-soldier/

 

Hello Judith,

You have beautifully written your blog piece and I enjoyed reading it immensely.  I have just two hopefully helpful suggestions to make.  Firstly at the time that Bertie enlisted the local regiment was titled The Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) and was not retitled the Royal West Kent Regiment (Queen’s Own) until 1921.  At the time the regiment would have been very proud of its association with a former sovereign, so you might wish to reflect the title accurately.  Secondly, when you first mention Bertie’s enlistment you mention the enlistment with the Royal West Kent’s but then almost immediately mention his going to the Manchester Regiment as if that was straight away.  You then subsequently talk about the Royal West Kent’s again and show his photograph, etc. which for the unfamiliar would be confusing.  It might be better to mention his enlistment with the Royal West Kent’s and show his photograph, etc. before making clear that he was subsequently (after his training) sent to the Manchester Regiment for the reasons explained in the thread above.

Best wishes and thank you for showing us your interesting blog.

Edited 14 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Judith Batchelor]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Hello Judith,

You have beautifully written your blog piece and I enjoyed reading it immensely.  I have just two hopefully helpful suggestions to make.  Firstly at the time that Bertie enlisted the local regiment was titled The Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) and was not retitled the Royal West Kent Regiment (Queen’s Own) until 1921.  At the time the regiment would have been very proud of its association with a former sovereign, so you might wish to reflect the title accurately.  Secondly, when you first mention Bertie’s enlistment you mention the enlistment with the Royal West Kent’s but then almost immediately mention his going to the Manchester Regiment as if that was immediate.  You then subsequently talk about the Royal West Kent’s again and show his photograph, etc. which for the unfamiliar would be confusing.  It might be better to mention his enlistment with the Royal West Kent’s and show his photograph, etc. before making clear that he was subsequently sent to the Manchester Regiment for the reasons explained in the thread above.

Best wishes and thank you for showing us your interesting blog.

Thank you Frogsmile for you kind comments and helpful suggestions.  I appreciate them very much and have made some amendments that will hopefully make things clearer. 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Judith Batchelor said:

Thank you Frogsmile for you kind comments and helpful suggestions.  I appreciate them very much and have made some amendments that will hopefully make things clearer. 

I’m pleased to help a little Judith.  It’s an interesting story and it struck a chord when I realised that we still do not produce sufficient of our own food, even now, as has been brought into sharp focus by the Ukrainian war.

The story reads more clearly now, but I recommend that you add a brief sentence or two explaining why he was sent to the Manchester Regiment, regardless of being a lad from Kent.  I’m sure people will be interested, as it will otherwise remain a question hanging in the air.

Best wishes,

FS 

Edited 14 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Judith Batchelor]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m pleased to help a little Judith.  It’s an interesting story and it struck a chord when I realised that we still do not produce sufficient of our own food, even now, as has been brought into sharp focus by the Ukrainian war.

The story reads more clearly now, but I recommend that you add a brief sentence or two explaining why he was sent to the Manchester Regiment, regardless of being a lad from Kent.  I’m sure people will be interested, as it will otherwise remain a question hanging in the air.

Best wishes,

FS 

Yes, war brings home the importance of food security. I felt it was important to give some context. It must have been incredible difficult for farmers to feed the nation and on 1916, there was a real threat that there wouldn’t be enough to go round. 
 

With regard to Bertie being transferred to the Manchester Regiment, would there be other reasons apart from the need to find new men to replace those that had been lost? 
 

Many thanks!

[FROGSMILE]

35 minutes ago, Judith Batchelor said:

Yes, war brings home the importance of food security. I felt it was important to give some context. It must have been incredible difficult for farmers to feed the nation and on 1916, there was a real threat that there wouldn’t be enough to go round. 
 

With regard to Bertie being transferred to the Manchester Regiment, would there be other reasons apart from the need to find new men to replace those that had been lost? 
 

Many thanks!

Yes the food security was immensely important, but I can understand why the government followed the policies that it did, and the women and Labour Corps agricultural companies (men of low medical grade) did a good job according to accounts.  Healthy men were needed to fight, and it’s worth remembering that less than a quarter of UK men of the official “military age” served in uniform during WW1, much less than in France and Germany.  There was always a friction between the need for soldiers while ensuring key industries continued to run.

By the time that Bertie completed his training there would be no other obvious reason why he joined the Manchester Regiment other than that they were in the most need at the time.  By that stage of the war men officially enlisted for “General Service”, as was laid down in the “Military Service Act” of 1916 (with subsequent amendments) and that was specifically so that men could be sent wherever they were needed, “in the Interests of the Service”.  It was commonplace for drafts (groups) of men to arrive at their regimentally affiliated Infantry Base Depot (IBD) in France (near to the channel ports) where they would ordinarily expect to spend a few weeks to acclimatise, only to subsequently be sent to an entirely different regiment because of unexpected and critical manpower losses.  The system had to be ruthlessly pragmatic and send men when and where they were needed.

Edited 14 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE