Medal Identification please (3rd medal, on the right)

[TullochArd]

22 hours ago, RNCVR said:

I dont think its a Defence medal, the suspension just does not look right, it appears somewhat rounded at the ends. 

It might be some kind of unofficial medal??

I'm with you there RNCVR.......the suspension bar is curious.  I've been down the rabbit hole of the possibility it was an obscure Great War foreign award (the order of precedence would place this as third medal) but have come up with nothing.  Whatever it is there arn't many of these about.

Edited 23 October , 2022 by TullochArd

[JOSTURM]

On 22/10/2022 at 18:13, Mick M said:

Not sure about this but the ribbon matches, was the medal struck without the clasp?

He never served in India for sure.

On 23/10/2022 at 12:31, TullochArd said:

I'm with you there RNCVR.......the suspension bar is curious.  I've been down the rabbit hole of the possibility it was an obscure Great War foreign award (the order of precedence would place this as third medal) but have come up with nothing.  Whatever it is there arn't many of these about.

1917 to January 1920 he was in the RMLI aboard HMS Chamption in the North Sea. I think he was at the surrender of the German fleet. Not sure if he might have been given some other sort of medal for any of this. 

[TullochArd]

9 hours ago, JOSTURM said:

He never served in India for sure.

The IGSM in the previous post is the India General Service Medal 1936.  It replaced the the India General Service Medal 1909 -1935 which had a very different ribbon.  The bar suspender in both cases is similarly ornate and nothing like on the photo.  The medal(s) were not issued without a clasp which is absent on the photo.  I'd offer this line is a dead end - not least due to your point that he never served in India.

I was wondering if his RMLI connection somehow rolled on and was in some way connected to his later pictured service as an Inspector in the Special Constabulary.  I can see a tenuous connection between the RN Victualling Yard at Deptford and the Royal Marine Police which was created by an Order in Council and came into being on 13 October 1922. It was administered by the Adjutant General Royal Marines and attached for records, pay, clothing and discipline to the three Royal Marine Divisions at Chatham, Portsmouth and Plymouth (Devonport). All the members were sworn in as special constables under the Special Constables Act 1923 but were, as the name implies, originally serving and retired members of the Corps of Royal Marines.  Could this be the case and maybe related to the medal?

Edited 25 October , 2022 by TullochArd

[JOSTURM]

21 hours ago, TullochArd said:

The IGSM in the previous post is the India General Service Medal 1936.  It replaced the the India General Service Medal 1909 -1935 which had a very different ribbon.  The bar suspender in both cases is similarly ornate and nothing like on the photo.  The medal(s) were not issued without a clasp which is absent on the photo.  I'd offer this line is a dead end - not least due to your point that he never served in India.

I was wondering if his RMLI connection somehow rolled on and was in some way connected to his later pictured service as an Inspector in the Special Constabulary.  I can see a tenuous connection between the RN Victualling Yard at Deptford and the Royal Marine Police which was created by an Order in Council and came into being on 13 October 1922. It was administered by the Adjutant General Royal Marines and attached for records, pay, clothing and discipline to the three Royal Marine Divisions at Chatham, Portsmouth and Plymouth (Devonport). All the members were sworn in as special constables under the Special Constables Act 1923 but were, as the name implies, originally serving and retired members of the Corps of Royal Marines.  Could this be the case and maybe related to the medal?

Thanks, I will investigate this. I know he was discharged from RMLI in January with a fake reason and returned home to Bermondsey. I suspect that he kept in touch with his RM buddies via reunions. In WW2 he was in Scotland evacuated with his firm, Jaeger’s where he became a Pilot Officer RAF ATC at Alloa, but this was well after the photo. 
 

Sadly, I only have found his VM (in the USA I might add )

[TullochArd]

12 hours ago, JOSTURM said:

Thanks, I will investigate this. 

It's just a guesstimate on my part ....... you might say clutching at a few historically connected straws as I completely failed to glean his name from your impressive GWF bio research list. There is a fantastically complex, slow creeping handover between the Met Specials and the RM Police Specials at the Dockyards post WW1. The photo could also be showing a Met Specials cap badge of the late 1920s/30s type (below) but frankly most UK police cap badges are roughly that shape.  The jacket, cut, collar badges and buttons shown are all <WW1> Met specials style but any uniformity is also creeping and general.  The single pip threw me as Inspectors have two pips but there seems to be a defunct local rank (more correctly in the specials a management appointment) for Station Inspector or similar around this time which this probably is. As for the medal ...... the Met (and Scottish Police) were not shy in handing out medals in earlier times but I'm at a loss with this one.  

https://www.scottishpolicemedals.co.uk/metropolitan-police-medals-helmet-plates-photographs/

[JOSTURM]

thank you so much - this is very interesting and a whole new direction for me to get obsessed about. 

[JOSTURM]

One aspect that may make this theory more possible is that my grandfather had served in the RMLI and according to his WW2 Air Ministry Service Record, he was discharged with the rank of Sergeant from the RMLI in January 1920. In November 1920, he had returned to London and re=enlisted as a Private in the London Regiment Territorial Force and by February 1921 had been promoted to Sergeant. On April 9th, he was discharegd and re-enlisted in the 22nd London Defence Force and rapidly appointed from Acting Sergeant to Acting Warrant Officer 11. By July 21 he was again discharged on termination of engagement. 

Then, apparently it was in 1937, he was a Sub-Inspector in the Special Constabulary - Blackhorse Road, Deptford.

My other grandfather had joined the City of London Specials in 1921 from being a Rifleman in the LRB but remained as a Constable for many years eventually being made a Sergeant in the 1940's. Hence, I have always wondered how this grandfather joined the Special Constabulary at the rank of Sub-Inspector ?  It either has to be because of his RMLI service or his subsequent service in the TA or Defence Force.

Where would I find records on Royal Marines who joined the Special Constabulary in London in the 1920's and 1930's ?

[nhclark]

We might be able to find something in the newspapers perhaps? I'll put my thinking cap on.

Edited 20 November , 2022 by nhclark

[nhclark]

Peter,

What a puzzle! I have been unable to find anything in the newspapers, other than general references to certain special constables in the Lewisham/Catford/Deptford area in the late 1930s, but no mention of Henry Edward Leonard, full name, using initials or just surname. I did find reference to a First-Aid Competition between stations Lewisham and Southend (whether that's Southend in Essex or a station somewhat closer - I would think the latter - I'm not sure). Also mention of Lewisham winning the "Gledhill Cup" for the eighth year in succession. All from the "Lewisham Borough News."

With HEL wearing gloves, and his medals, in the photograph I'm inclined to think that the shot was taken before or after a parade of some sort, or perhaps the swearing-in of specials, and probably at one of the police stations in the area, e.g. Deptford. If that is correct I'm also am inclined to think that the police would be pretty strict with what medals would be allowed to be worn on such occasions, and that they would have to be service related (police or otherwise).

So how clearly does the photograph show the three medals? I suggest that it is only because we have studied the First World War that we can readily identify the BWM and the VM, the "pair" by the hanging of the BWM on its horizontal suspender and the VM on its distinctive ring. You can't really tell much about the ribbons from this photograph. The mystery medal appears to show three vertical stripes. I took an image on my smartphone and sent that back to my PC and played around with image - there's a hint of two darker stripes on the two outer ones but that could just be my imagination or wishful thinking).

What else was going on in the 1930s that could cause a copper to be wearing another medal? The aborted coronation of Edward VIII and the coronation of George VI, 1936 and 1937 respectively. The third medal is nothing like the George VI Coronation Medal, which is hung from a ring anyway, but there were various commemorative and souvenir medals struck for both events, usually tricolours, but again usually (but not always) hung from a ring. I discount these as not being "official" enough to be allowed on a police uniform.

I know that the stripes don't appear to support my view, but my logic tells me that the mystery medal is the Special Constabulary Long-Service Medal, awarded after 9 years service, and that it is some quirk of the photography that doesn't allow us to identify the ribbon. If it isn't that then it's another police service medal of some type.

If it were me, and you haven't already done so, I'd try the Metropolitan Police Heritage Centre https://fomphc.com/heritage-centre/ to see what they have to say. See also https://www.met.police.uk/museums.

Noel

 

Edited 21 November , 2022 by nhclark

[Toontraveller]

On 31/10/2022 at 18:50, JOSTURM said:

One aspect that may make this theory more possible is that my grandfather had served in the RMLI and according to his WW2 Air Ministry Service Record, he was discharged with the rank of Sergeant from the RMLI in January 1920. In November 1920, he had returned to London and re=enlisted as a Private in the London Regiment Territorial Force and by February 1921 had been promoted to Sergeant. On April 9th, he was discharegd and re-enlisted in the 22nd London Defence Force and rapidly appointed from Acting Sergeant to Acting Warrant Officer 11. By July 21 he was again discharged on termination of engagement. 

Then, apparently it was in 1937, he was a Sub-Inspector in the Special Constabulary - Blackhorse Road, Deptford.

My other grandfather had joined the City of London Specials in 1921 from being a Rifleman in the LRB but remained as a Constable for many years eventually being made a Sergeant in the 1940's. Hence, I have always wondered how this grandfather joined the Special Constabulary at the rank of Sub-Inspector ?  It either has to be because of his RMLI service or his subsequent service in the TA or Defence Force.

Where would I find records on Royal Marines who joined the Special Constabulary in London in the 1920's and 1930's ?

Hi, good evening, there are no personnel records for Special  Constables held by the Metropolitan Police Heritage Centre, however you never know if someone has previously submitted information about him which they  have retained.

As per previous suggestion I would suggest try The Metropolitan Police  Heritage Centre you just never know your luck.

There are and were then , strict guidance about which medals you could wear in uniform  as a Police Officer  so would expect it to be an official recognised medal. 

I have looked at the photograph numerous times and it’s just not clear enough to be 100% , my thoughts are based on the location of the medal on his uniform positioned before the WW1 medals suggesting it’s likely to be a Special Constable Long  Service medal, especially given his rank.

If there were any specific award for which he was awarded a medal I would expect it to be reported in the local newspapers at that time which have been searched and not identified an event in which he features.

I have also checked numerous lists and books I have of medals awarded for bravery  to Metropolitan Police Officers and do not see his name. 

 

 

[kenf48]

I think a bravery medal would take precedence over the 'war medals'.

I'd agree it's most likely a Special Constabulary Long Service Medal (9 years). I don't know but suspect the notification of the award would have appeared in M.P. Police Orders.  Although the OP states he only served for a short time he would not have reached the rank of sub-inspector in a 'short time'.  I'd guess the photograph was taken shortly after the medal had been awarded.

A name might help newspaper searches on  ? Leonard give thousands of results as they include first names.

[TullochArd]

6 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

........ A name might help .......

I'm with you there kenf48 ...... a name would certainly help. 

[nhclark]

28 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

I'm with you there kenf48 ...... a name would certainly help. 

I missed it too first time around. But it's buried at the bottom of Peter's signature - Henry Edward Leonard is the name you are looking for.

I've tried all combinations of initials and the surname in both the British Newspaper Archive and the FindMyPast British Newspapers (which are not quite the same even though the latter is taken from the former) but there's not a sniff of anything to do with him or the Lewisham district or Deptford except for the first-aid competition and the Gledhill Cup (which might be one and the same?).

There's the British Library collection and the Gale News Vault - TBH I can't remember whether I specifically looked at either as I've been searching for references to someone else these past few days. I did try the London Gazette though, but nothing there. Are there any on-line Police newsletters/ gazettes etc? Even if there are, do they cover "Specials?"

I still think it's the Long Service medal.

Edited 23 November , 2022 by nhclark

[kenf48]

8 minutes ago, nhclark said:

Are there any on-line Police newsletters/ gazettes etc?

Thank you, saves us looking

The only place I can think it would be is in the above mentioned Police Orders (published internally twice weekly ) but as mentioned above the MP Heritage Centre holds copies going back many years and certainly covering the estimated period of Henry's service.

[nhclark]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Thank you, saves us looking

The only place I can think it would be is in the above mentioned Police Orders (published internally twice weekly ) but as mentioned above the MP Heritage Centre holds copies going back many years and certainly covering the estimated period of Henry's service.

I've just searched the TNA archives on the words "Special Constables" and "Metropolitan Police" and quite a few files come up in the MEPO 2 collection. One I note is MEPO 2/7566 where service in the Specials is to count in the award of the (1945) Defence Medal. Nothing comes up when the word "Leonard" is added to the search, and there are files dealing with various Specials by name.

Edit: MEPO 7 at TNO has all the Police Orders, but they have not been digitised and cannot be downloaded. For example, MEPO 7/100 is for the year 1938, and MEPO 7/101 is for 1939.

It's getting a bit out of the remit of the "Great War" and from what you say above Peter's next step does appear to be contact with the Heritage Centre.

Edited 24 November , 2022 by nhclark