Georges Guynemer

[stephen p nunn]

Does anyone know of a good book on the search for Georges Guynemer?

[keithmroberts]

Guynemer Knight of the Air,  by Henry Bordeaux, translated by  Louise Morgan Sill. Pub 1918 Chatto and Windus.

 

Free digitally via the Internet Archive    https://archive.org/search.php?query=GUYNEMER+KNIGHT+OF+THE+AIR&sin=

[stephen p nunn]

Thanks both. I was thinking of a modern study?

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

 

[AOK4]

6 minutes ago, stephen p nunn said:

Thanks both. I was thinking of a modern study?

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

 

There have been several articles in Dutch over the years in which local historians try to find out whether Guynemer was buried somewhere by the Germans. Luc Vanacker has published in 2011 "Een late krans voor Guynemer" and I seem to remember he wrote a more recent article for the WFA Belgium as well.

Anyway, I have also tried to look for some clues in German archives and checked some of the earlier theories (like that he was buried in a mass grave in Rumbeke), but unfortunately there's nothing to be found in the archives of the unit that was in the area (other units' archives haven't survived) and the Rumbeke connection is far fetched and extremely unlikely.

Jan

[stephen p nunn]

5 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

There have been several articles in Dutch over the years in which local historians try to find out whether Guynemer was buried somewhere by the Germans. Luc Vanacker has published in 2011 "Een late krans voor Guynemer" and I seem to remember he wrote a more recent article for the WFA Belgium as well.

Anyway, I have also tried to look for some clues in German archives and checked some of the earlier theories (like that he was buried in a mass grave in Rumbeke), but unfortunately there's nothing to be found in the archives of the unit that was in the area (other units' archives haven't survived) and the Rumbeke connection is far fetched and extremely unlikely.

Jan

Thanks Jan - I just think it is a fascinating story (albeit very sad) and it lends itself to a modern study.

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

[stephen p nunn]

19 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

There have been several articles in Dutch over the years in which local historians try to find out whether Guynemer was buried somewhere by the Germans. Luc Vanacker has published in 2011 "Een late krans voor Guynemer" and I seem to remember he wrote a more recent article for the WFA Belgium as well.

Anyway, I have also tried to look for some clues in German archives and checked some of the earlier theories (like that he was buried in a mass grave in Rumbeke), but unfortunately there's nothing to be found in the archives of the unit that was in the area (other units' archives haven't survived) and the Rumbeke connection is far fetched and extremely unlikely.

Jan

Thanks Jan - I just think it is a fascinating story (albeit very sad) and it lends itself to a modern study.

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

[stephen p nunn]

Some great items in the Georges Guynemer museum....

[stephen p nunn]

2 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

   But that is the whole problem-   unlike Brits. such as Mick Mannock or Albert Ball-or,of course, v.Richthofen-there aint anything out there that is modern- and what there is seems to be superficial re-hash of  the  laudatory material of 1917-1919. Compare, for example, what Peter Hart has  in "Aces Falling"  (and the excellent BBC Timewatch documentary), there seems to be very little that is the equivalent to,say, the search for a resting place  for Mick Mannock.

      Just as a curiosity about whether Guynemer is buried at Poelcapelle or not, I note that he appears not to have an ICRC card-which would have helped greatly- or did he?

    

Agree Alan. I have some really good modern studies of Mannock, but I just found the Guynemer story really worthy of an up to date summary of the primary evidence and the attempts at solving the "mystery" since.

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

[stephen p nunn]

Thanks Alan - I will work my way through these.

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

[AOK4]

As far as I know, these French publication focus more on Guynemer's life and career. I think the publication by Vanackere is the only one which focuses on the search for his body.

Jan

[AOK4]

Hello,

Luc Vanacker has done quite a bit of research. I seem to recall that I had contact with him as well about this matter.

I did a bit of research in German archives and there is no trace of Guynemer in the war diaries of IR 413. I checked the other regimental histories (as these units don't have any archives left) and no mention of him there. The burial in Rumbeke can be discarded as 1. the priest of the village, who was extremely interested in history as well, doesn't mention this at all in his history of Rumbeke during the war 2. the cemetery concerned was at that point not used at all for military burials 3. there was no epidemic at that point and no mass grave.

Jan

[LDT006]

On 18/10/2022 at 20:47, ALAN MCMAHON said:

Just as a curiosity about whether Guynemer is buried at Poelcapelle or not, I note that he appears not to have an ICRC card-which would have helped greatly- or did he?

He has a card there and it says buried Poelkappele:

https://icrc1418images.blob.core.windows.net/full-resolution/C/G1/E/02/08/C_G1_E_02_08_0050/C_G1_E_02_08_0050_0008.JPG

 

[AOK4]

3 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

He has a card there and it says buried Poelkappele:

https://icrc1418images.blob.core.windows.net/full-resolution/C/G1/E/02/08/C_G1_E_02_08_0050/C_G1_E_02_08_0050_0008.JPG

 

Great, I had never checked the Red Cross website. The regimental history of IR 413 gives the following account (unfortunately the original war diaries don't mention the incident at all and I couldn't find any trace of this alleged "Meldung" in the archive).

 

[LDT006]

There is another entry with some more detail on the location of the crash:

Does this fit with the location of IR413 and would you know at which destroyed cemetery they were?

[AOK4]

32 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

There is another entry with some more detail on the location of the crash:

Does this fit with the location of IR413 and would you know at which destroyed cemetery they were?

That should be Ehrenfriedhof Poelkapelle II (after WWI Nr. 111).

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

Jan- This really is excellent work- very well done.  As per previous post, is there  any  realistic possibility of tracking down the  reference given in the ICRC entry in the German records???

     I have not seen the ICRC listings for Guynemer quoted before  -  they seem to greatly strengthen the case for what happened to Guynemer.

Unfortunately, the German archives involved are lost.

Regarding what later happened to Guynemers remains: There was the Third Battle of Ypres still until November and then the German advance and an Allied offensive in 1918. Whether the remains were found at some point (I doubt that the British did any real effort to clear the battlefield in 1917/1918 when I read German reports from 1918), remains a mystery. By the time they were found again, any possibility to identify them, may have been impossible. So either they were found at some point and buried as an unknown soldier (of any nationality) or they are still there somewhere. I believe a search has been done in the past, without success.

Jan

[AOK4]

I attach an article from the "Gazet van Antwerpen" from 5&6 October 1968 where some electrician A. Keukeleire claimed to have found Guynemer's grave on a German trench map. What this man didn't realise was that it was a map that predated Guynemer's crash and showed field graves from 1914/1915 that were later mostly exhumed and reburied by the German military graves services.

The man sent the article to the German War Graves Service at that time (Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge) and a few letters were sent back and forth (without any further reference to Guynemer and with non-related issues). Anyway, the man also claimed the picture in the articles was taken in 1922 when he and his brother found the remains of an unknown German soldier of the 121st regiment near Manneken Ferme (southern part of Houthulst Forest).

Jan

[LDT006]

7 hours ago, AOK4 said:

So either they were found at some point and buried as an unknown soldier (of any nationality) or they are still there somewhere.

Fully agree with this. If the remains were found he can be buried in either a French, British or German cemetery.

A lot of bodies were still found after the war despite all the later fighting in the area. Below is an example of remains found close to the German cemetery Poelkapelle II where Guynemer was lost. All were found without a cross and identified by "Numerals" but there is no "Means of Identification" for the unknown airman "RAF" .......

[AOK4]

9 hours ago, LDT006 said:

Fully agree with this. If the remains were found he can be buried in either a French, British or German cemetery.

A lot of bodies were still found after the war despite all the later fighting in the area. Below is an example of remains found close to the German cemetery Poelkapelle II where Guynemer was lost. All were found without a cross and identified by "Numerals" but there is no "Means of Identification" for the unknown airman "RAF" .......

 

Luc, I think this unknown RAF airman may very well be Guynemer, but there's no way to be sure.

[LDT006]

There will be several British airmen lost in this area without a known grave and are also candidates.

The unknown RAF was buried in a field grave, not in a German cemetery. This fact can indicate timeframes when he was killed and buried.
Extensive research in my area indicate that field graves were only used during Third Ypres and the last months of the war, I have collected enough evidence of this and was able to identify several of these field graves.
You know the Poelkapelle area better, can the same be applied there?

[AOK4]

21 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

There will be several British airmen lost in this area without a known grave and are also candidates.

The unknown RAF was buried in a field grave, not in a German cemetery. This fact can indicate timeframes when he was killed and buried.
Extensive research in my area indicate that field graves were only used during Third Ypres and the last months of the war, I have collected enough evidence of this and was able to identify several of these field graves.
You know the Poelkapelle area better, can the same be applied there?

The area was largely cleared by the Germans prior to Third Ypres, so field graves were most probably from late 1917 onwards. Unfortunately, I have no idea at all what the Germans exactly did with Allied bodies recovered in 1918. It's one of the big mysteries for which I hope to find an answer at some point in a German archive. Even though I have some monthly reports from a Gräberoffizier in 1918, they don't mention any Allied (re)burial at all. The only reference I have is from the regimental history of RIR 226, where they mention burials "an Ort und Stelle" of Allied soldiers by a 400 man strong work party of Armierungstruppen (a bit similar to the British Labour Corps). It seems they were buried without much reporting (or is there a trace somewhere in large reports in the ICRC archives?). At least some of them may have been identifiable?

[AOK4]

14 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

I am slightly puzzled as to why-in 1917-1918-a downed  French airman-wearing French  uniform- should be mistaken for being RAF-the more so if the body was dug up and re-interred.  The body of Guynemer was not smashed up so badly, nor burned, so that ID as being French was straightforward. Nor would the materials of his uniform degraded before he was moved.

Oh, there's plenty of reasons to think this could be the case. Leutnant Adam, commander of Jasta 6, was shot down on 15 November 1917 and his body was only found 3 days later, completely nude as someone had taken the uniform and flying gear apparently. Guynemer's body would have been on an active battlefield for several months. Artillery fire and pillaging may have very well made it impossible to establish an exact nationality of the remains. And who knows, if a German reburial unit found the remains in 1918 and buried them, what they may have taken/done, or even 1918 or post war (Belgian) burial parties. There's plenty that could have happened to the remains between September 1917 and let's say 1920.

[AOK4]

17 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

But we know that Guynemer was identified.  And, yes, I fully agree  that  subsequent shelling could have stripped away all remnants of clothing. (There seems to be no evidence at all to support the notion that the clothes of Guynemer may have been removed shortly after his death).   But the assignment of putative RAF status is based on what exactly????

He was identified in September 1917 and then the remains were left were they were. No cross was put there or anything (so they were in fact unidentified remains). There is no way anyone can say exactly what all happened to them between September 1917 and 1920. IR 413 was relieved immediately after the crash, so another unit came in the sector. They weren't aware at all of the identity and may have done a second search and buried the remains and taken the uniform. I even seem to remember having read somewhere that the officer of IR 413 took the boots of Guynemer and returned them after the war.

If there were hardly any uniform bits left, the 1918 burial parties may have buried him as an "Englischer Flieger" as they assumed all allied planes were British. German notions of the nationality of enemy airmen were often not completely correct.

 

[AOK4]

19 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

  Just as a curiosity- for the purposes of elimination, I accept that the  German military POW records have long since become toast.  Yet a number of  of  the ICRC cards have information coming from "Flieger Inspektion"- the section detailed to examine the downed planes for technical information.  Do we know for sure that the records of this section have gone????

All (well 99,99% or so) Prussian military records have been destroyed during bombing raids at the end of the war.

[AOK4]

39 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

   That presumes Flieger Inspektion records were at Potsdam in 1945.   OK, I accept the 99% certainty that "records" were destroyed but, in the manner of Holmes, until we have definite knowledge that the records have been destroyed, then we must presume they continue to exist. "Potsdam" is too broad a brush to cover everything.  The  stuff that Peter Barton located in state archives for the Somme shows that  there is still a lot of stuff out there.

Believe me, if it would still exist, I would have heard of it by now. Peter Barton didn't discover anything new at all. I am working with existing German military archives for more than 20 years and know a bit what is there and what not.

There is plenty in the archives that have survived, but almost nothing from the Flieger (as Herr Meyer decided he wanted to have all airforce records to write a history of the German airforce in WWI and had the records destroyed at the end of WWII).