dutchbarge Posted 28 September , 2022 Share Posted 28 September , 2022 Although claimed to have come from "the estate of", the stitching on these eBay offerings lacks the 'petit point' appearance of the genuine item, n'est-ce pas? ...................................Cheers, BIll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 September , 2022 Share Posted 28 September , 2022 (edited) They (RFC wings) have been reproduced in such prolific numbers that it needs a real expert, who has studied them in detail over a long time, to determine which ones are genuine Bill. There’s a detailed and informative thread here: forum member @scottmarchandmight be able to offer an informed opinion on your wings. Edited 28 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 28 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2022 (edited) The 2 brevets below are from vetted tunics in my collection...............note the 'petit point' appearance of the stitching on the upper brevet's wings and RFC initials.......the lower brevet is heavily worn, and while harder to discern, if you look at the right side (wearer's right) the wing still presents a 'petit point' stitch. I suspect that this 'petit point' appearance is due partly to the pronounced 'lay' of the silk thread used during this time period. It's construction is quite like a hawser-laid rope. This displays as additional rows of stitching.....it's all a bit zen getting to the point where one sees the 'petit point' effect, but like the video of Zelensky dancing in spandex, lipstick and spike heels, once seen it cannot be forgotten. Reproduction brevet's thread (as used in the brevet pictured in my opening post) present as formless 'straw', if that makes any sense. Of course this is all IMHO......doubtless there are brevet fetishists and have forgotten more on this subject than I will ever know..... Cheer, Bill Edited 29 September , 2022 by dutchbarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 28 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2022 PS: Thank you Frogsmile for pointing me in the right direction.........as always! Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 29 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2022 PPS: Here's a brevet in the IMW's collection............not a very good photo but still clear enough to see the 'petit point' stitching....................Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 30 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2022 These appear to check all the boxes as being genuine................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 6 hours ago, dutchbarge said: These appear to check all the boxes as being genuine................................. It’s interesting that they don’t have a rendering of elbow joints along the top of the wings silhouette like the others you’ve shown. The design and manufacture is very attractive and makes me wonder how they were manufactured and what the production line actually looked like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 30 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2022 Indeed, the shape of these wings appears unique. I've seen wings without the pronounced 'elbow joint' you mention (or at least a very subdued joint), but have never seen wings shaped quite like these. The bottom edge of most wings of this period that I have seen (surviving examples or those seen in period photos) have a horizontal to downward slant while these slant upward. This divergence of shape from the norm is a slightly troubling aspect of this brevet, but doubtless there were many variations and this might well be one of them. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, dutchbarge said: Indeed, the shape of these wings appears unique. I've seen wings without the pronounced 'elbow joint' you mention (or at least a very subdued joint), but have never seen wings shaped quite like these. The bottom edge of most wings of this period that I have seen (surviving examples or those seen in period photos) have a horizontal to downward slant while these slant upward. This divergence of shape from the norm is a slightly troubling aspect of this brevet, but doubtless there were many variations and this might well be one of them. Cheers, Bill Yes Bill, the lengthy explanation in the thread at the link I posted above mentions the numerous variations, so that does seem likely. Like most prewar corps the RFC grew exponentially during between 1914-18 and the supply chain would have needed to diversify its list of suppliers. Edited 30 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 (edited) Hi Guys, Pretty much all the wings referenced here are very nice authentic ones - the only one that I have reservations about based on images - but may be OK with clsoer in hand examination - is the first one one wednesdays post sewn onto the jacket, the one benetath it that is a bit rougher also on a jacket is fine. To Frogsmiles observations about production. There was no 'line' or mechanical process for these RFC wings, all were hand embroidered, so you will see endless variation in technique, materials and skill. Some were done by family members, many by varisus military outfitters with their dedicated emboidery staff, and specialist regalia embroidery firms. The pilot had a large variety of higher and lower quality materials to choose from based on budget. Which makes collecting these endlessly fascinating. However - all had to conform to the sealed pattern So black wool backing, white threads and contrasting wreath. You see a little embellishment with green thread or red highlights in the crown from time to time - more typical from Canada than the UK. There were never khaki backed wings and any you encounter are fakes, period full stop. They weren't worn in WW II or by home guard either. There were some interesting interpretations when the Observors wings were introduced. but they settled down to the standard pattern of the half wing very quickly. You would do well to spend a few bucks and buy a copy of 'Eagles Recalled' by my old friend Warren Carroll. Pretty much teh definative work on WW I & II Commonwelath wings. https://www.amazon.com/Eagles-Recalled-Commonwealth-1913-1945-Schiffer/dp/0764302442 there are new copies at Schiffere still and about the sam price as used ones. Edited 30 September , 2022 by scottmarchand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 (edited) Thank you Scott, hand embroidering was my understanding (for a long time now), but the wings are so beautifully done that I was momentarily starting to doubt my earlier research, so I appreciate your confirming matters. Edited 30 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 30 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2022 (edited) Hello Scott, Thank you for your much appreciated contribution to this thread.........I must say I that I never expected that the first brevet I posted ("from the estate of") would turn out to be genuine......I have seen many similar examples that I have passed up believing them to be reproductions. PS: As per your recommendation I just ordered 'Recalled Eagles', Cheers, Bill Edited 4 October , 2022 by dutchbarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 30 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2022 6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Thank you Scott, hand embroidering was my understanding (for a long time now), but the wings are so beautifully done that I was momentarily starting to doubt my earlier research, so I appreciate your confirming matters. Like yourself, I can't imagine how such fine work was done by hand (probably in a cold, damp and poorly lit room).........another testament to the craftsmanship (and grit) of a bygone generation. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 30 September , 2022 Share Posted 30 September , 2022 59 minutes ago, dutchbarge said: PS: As per your recommendation I just ordered 'Recalled Eagles'.....thanks for the link to Amazon. I suggested the same back in August: SEE HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 1 October , 2022 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2022 21 minutes ago, 4thGordons said: I suggested the same back in August: SEE HERE Indeed you did...........thank you.........however, my mind tends to drift hither and yon.........if I don't act on a recommendation immediately, or at least write myself a note to act upon it later, the intention is very likely, however worthy, to be lost in the ozone......Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 1 October , 2022 Share Posted 1 October , 2022 Indeed! I understand. Apologies my response was probably more to do with work ( where suggestions made long ago have recently resurfaced attributed elsewhere) than here. i shall pour myself a dram and (as the kids say) chill! cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 1 October , 2022 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2022 (edited) Hello Chris, I'm not ashamed to admit that the challenges of the past couple of years (and having had a 500 square mile wildfire raging almost on our doorstep this past summer) have left me a bit frayed........neither am I very optimistic about the next few years.......however, sharing something other than my troubles and concerns with all of you fine folks on the Forum seems to work as a tonic.......always glad when I see you've joined in on a thread.......Cheers, Bill Edited 1 October , 2022 by dutchbarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 22 October , 2022 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2022 Regarding Wings Revisited, RFC brevets.......I was expecting quite a bit more from this book than it offered...............perhaps I received a duff copy, but the fotos in mine were of very poor quality...............very difficult to make out the details of thread and backing........colors murky.........and there were no fotos of the reverse sides of the brevets........only the most general descriptions of individual brevets...............all in all not much information from which to tell originals from reproductions.............Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 October , 2022 Share Posted 23 October , 2022 The absence of pictures of the rear of the patches is a major weakness, I agree. And the descriptions are fairly generic however better than any other reference I am aware of. As regards the image quality - I think for a book published 25 years ago it is about what would be expected. I think the main purpose of the book (and the main purpose of my suggesting it) was to show the variety of styles of original badges, I am not sure any book would be particularly good at distinguishing reproductions of particular styles from the originals upon which they were based, but they can show original styles from reproductions that do not conform to a known style. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 23 October , 2022 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2022 (edited) Agreed.......however, some books do get it right...........my main area of collecting has been attributed field gray officer uniforms/accoutrements of Imperial Germany, circa 1914-1916, and another book, well ahead of and head and shoulders above its peers, The German Army in the First World War, by Jurgen Kraus, published 2004, excels in providing crystal clear photos (including many of pattern pieces), precise descriptions and historical context of both of the uniforms and field gear as well as the thinking of the Heer in regards to the changes they made as the war progressed to suit production circumstances and combat experience......when I purchased it the price seemed astronomical but it has earned its keep....... Cheers, Bill Edited 23 October , 2022 by dutchbarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 October , 2022 Share Posted 23 October , 2022 (edited) I agree on the Kraus book - and also the 2 volumes Mirouze and Dekerle volumes in the same series on the French Army - they are really excellent. Same goes for the Keller volumes on US Army patches. I wonder if one of the differences between the late 90s and the early 2000s wasn't the switch to digital photography and reproduction and an increase in the quality of images thereafter? I do agree that the Wings Revisited book is less than ideal - but as far as I know it is all that is out there. Best, Chris Edited 23 October , 2022 by 4thGordons missed a key word! digital! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 24 October , 2022 Share Posted 24 October , 2022 There is a lengthy section on RFC wings in this more recent book, with more detailed descriptions and more images. https://www.amazon.com/Flight-Badges-Allied-Nations-1914-1918/dp/1532305737 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierssc Posted 24 October , 2022 Share Posted 24 October , 2022 (edited) I can't bear this! Here are two types of RFC Wings, and a pair of RAF ones, photographed this morning. They came from my Grandfather, who joined the RFC in 1916, was demobbed in 1919, and died in 1970, so they will be genuine. 1. RFC from his (home made) framed set of medals. I'm afraid I can't get it out so you can look at the back. From photos, this seems to be what he wore on his double-breasted "maternity" jacket. 2. A more ornate type of RFC wing with a sort of metallic thread. This has been mounted on a piece of card, shaped to fit, either for mounting on a uniform, or for display; I'm not sure which. These seem to have been on his regimental (Scottish type) tunic. 3. RAF wings. He adopted the RAF uniform and would have worn these on that. 4. Back of RAF wings. All pictures my copyright! Edited 24 October , 2022 by pierssc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 25 October , 2022 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2022 (edited) Hello Piers, Thank you for sharing you Grandfather's wings.....how lucky you are to have such an iconic family souvenir.....my maternal Grandfather gave away his uniform during the 1930s to some children in his neighborhood so they could 'dress up' to 'play army' and my paternal Grandfather was buried in his uniform. Only a few medals left for me to treasure and then pass on. Below, your Grandfather's RFC wings are shown with those of RFC wings on the maternity of H. P. Brumell.........they're about as close to twins as I've ever seen.....Cheers, Bill Edited 25 October , 2022 by dutchbarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 28 October , 2022 Share Posted 28 October , 2022 Early RAF.... Modern repro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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