Mick M Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 (edited) Phillip George Clemett joined the RN in 1913, his list of postings is VIVID II, INDEFATIGABLE, DOLPHIN and then things are a bit blurred the last line being Submarine C16 which went down following a collision in May 1917. I can't make out the script between Dolphin and C16 but the more central column for C 16 seems to have the dates he was with the ship from HMS Dolphin to its sinking, but if so what could the script between these entries be about? Just out of thos picture the record is stamped "Passed educationally for Petty Officer".... does this indicate he could read and write and expecting of some army NCOs to assist men with letters, admin etc,? Also did the subs have names? The left hand column bottom line for C16 seems to start with ☆Udstone.... (Pic Ancestry) Edited 20 September , 2022 by Mick M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 Bonaventura? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 (edited) Submarines did not have names. They were numbered by Class (A, B, C, etc). He was borne on the books of the depot ship HMS MAIDSTONE while serving in C.16m which sank on 16 April 1917 after being run over by HMS MELAMPUS. I agree the depot ship is HMS BONAVENTURE and he may have been in C.16 while on the books of that ship. Educational Test for Petty Officer:- (a) Writing an ordinary passage of English to dictation ; (b) A simple paper on the first four rules in arithmetic, simple and compound, with vulgar and decimal fractions (no questions to involve a knowledge of special tables of weights and measures), calculating the average points obtained at practices, making out mess bills, &c., &c. [KR&AI (1913)] Edited 20 September , 2022 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick M Posted 20 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2022 56 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Bonaventura? Yes thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick M Posted 20 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2022 42 minutes ago, horatio2 said: Submarines did not have names. They were numbered by Class (A, B, C, etc). He was borne on the books of the depot ship HMS MAIDSTONE while serving in C.16m which sank on 16 April 1917 after being run over by HMS MELAMPUS. I agree the depot ship is HMS BONAVENTURE and he may have been in C.16 while on the books of that ship. Educational Test for Petty Officer:- (a) Writing an ordinary passage of English to dictation ; (b) A simple paper on the first four rules in arithmetic, simple and compound, with vulgar and decimal fractions (no questions to involve a knowledge of special tables of weights and measures), calculating the average points obtained at practices, making out mess bills, &c., &c. [KR&AI (1913)] Thank you that's made sense of this. Would he have served on the Depot ships before C16 making his underwater service on the last line 11th Feb to 16th April 1917or was he on C16 after passing the course at HMS Dolphin? Also I'm assuming the submariner service was voluntary and more pay, do you know how much?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 He might have a sub record card obtainable from HMS Dolphin sub museum. However I dont know if they are still being let out without charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 1 hour ago, Mick M said: Would he have served on the Depot ships before C16 making his underwater service on the last line 11th Feb to 16th April 1917or was he on C16 after passing the course at HMS Dolphin? Difficult to tell whether "(C.16)" is written after the two BONAVENTURE entries. C.16 was parented by BONAVENTURE as part of the 6th Submarine Flotilla (later 2nd SM Flotilla) from March 1915 until February 1917 when she was transferred to 9th SM Flotilla based on HMS MAIDSTONE at Harwich. That corresponds with the date shown in his ledger record which makes me think he probably moved to MAIDSTONE with C.16. During his BONAVENTURE time the reason for the new Period of Service starting on 1 April 1916 is not entirely clear. It does not match a change of rating vbut there is a change of Pay List and Number which could have been caused by a change of employment and a deraft to C.16. We cannot tell for sure - all is supposition. 19 minutes ago, RNCVR said: HMS Dolphin sub museum N.B. HMS DOLPHIN no longer exists - it closed in 1999. The contact you need is the National Musuem of the Royal Navy, of which the Submarine Museum is now a part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick M Posted 20 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2022 1 minute ago, horatio2 said: Difficult to tell whether "(C.16)" is written after the two BONAVENTURE entries. C.16 was parented by BONAVENTURE as part of the 6th Submarine Flotilla (later 2nd SM Flotilla) from March 1915 until February 1917 when she was transferred to 9th SM Flotilla based on HMS MAIDSTONE at Harwich. That corresponds with the date shown in his ledger record which makes me think he probably moved to MAIDSTONE with C.16. During his BONAVENTURE time the reason for the new Period of Service starting on 1 April 1916 is not entirely clear. It does not match a change of rating vbut there is a change of Pay List and Number which could have been caused by a change of employment and a deraft to C.16. We cannot tell for sure - all is supposition. N.B. HMS DOLPHIN no longer exists - it closed in 1999. The contact you need is the National Musuem of the Royal Navy, of which the Submarine Museum is now a part. Thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 3 minutes ago, horatio2 said: N.B. HMS DOLPHIN no longer exists - it closed in 1999. The contact you need is the National Musuem of the Royal Navy, of which the Submarine Museum is now a part. Thanks Horatio, I was unaware of that change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 1916 Submarine Pay was between 9 pence (Boys) and 3 shillings (CPOs) per day. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/92026942 I do not believe they were all volunteers - NMRN or other GWF experts may confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 July 1914 Navy List - "Payments in addition to Wages" - "Submarine vessels, Allowances to men employed in" --- CPO's, PO's, & Leading Seamen -- Yr of 365 days - 45/12/6. One day - 2/6 Other Ratings -- Yr of 365 days - 36/10/0 . One day - 2/0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick M Posted 20 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2022 10 minutes ago, RNCVR said: July 1914 Navy List - "Payments in addition to Wages" - "Submarine vessels, Allowances to men employed in" --- CPO's, PO's, & Leading Seamen -- Yr of 365 days - 45/12/6. One day - 2/6 Other Ratings -- Yr of 365 days - 36/10/0 . One day - 2/0 Thanks that doesn't seem a lot, in comparison to army corps pay, an RE tunneler had a substantial daily extra rate on the days they worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 (edited) The pay was poor actually, but for most of the ratings likely a lot better than they would have made in civvie street occupations. Ratings were also paid an addition allowance for their rate (ie' their trade in the RN), GCB's(Good Conduct badges) & additional qualifications they might attain (ie: Divers, Submariners). So there was the incentive to advance themselves if they had the will, ambition, & desire to improve. A rating did not have to remain a three badge (stripey) AB for his entire career. If he had ability, & desire to improve himself, both educationally & within his rate, he could make CPO within say 12-15 yrs & many did it earlier than that timeframe, many also went on to achieve Warrant rank. Edited 20 September , 2022 by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 Here is an example of what an ambitious rating could manage if he applied himself .... this rating subsequently made Warrant Offficer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talesofaseadog Posted 20 September , 2022 Share Posted 20 September , 2022 My son's Great Grandfather was involved in the salvage of C16 after the collision. His name was John Foulkes and this is a link to the book I have written about his Naval Career which includes C16 if it is of any interest. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1070501239 Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick M Posted 21 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2022 13 hours ago, Talesofaseadog said: My son's Great Grandfather was involved in the salvage of C16 after the collision. His name was John Foulkes and this is a link to the book I have written about his Naval Career which includes C16 if it is of any interest. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1070501239 Tony Awesome thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick M Posted 21 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2022 14 hours ago, RNCVR said: Here is an example of what an ambitious rating could manage if he applied himself .... this rating subsequently made Warrant Offficer I take it Pythagorus has a relevance in navigation? I had to relearn it for electrical installation science, never once had use of it holding a screwdriver! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 21 September , 2022 Share Posted 21 September , 2022 He obviously needed to do some studying in order to pass educationally for Petty Officer, but the workings in the note book appear to be examples of trigonometry based around basic gunnery rather than navigation. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 21 September , 2022 Share Posted 21 September , 2022 (edited) You are correct Kiz. He was a Gunnery rating, made CPO GI, then Warrant. I could show more examples from his amazing journal but do not wish to clog up Mick's topic. Edited 21 September , 2022 by RNCVR . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick M Posted 21 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2022 25 minutes ago, RNCVR said: You are correct Kiz. He was a Gunnery rating, made CPO GI, then Warrant. I could show more examples from his amazing journal but do not wish to clog up Mick's topic. Feel free, I'm learning a lot. Pythagorus has an obvious relevance to gunnery now I've been told! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 21 September , 2022 Share Posted 21 September , 2022 (edited) Thanks Mike. The rating I am speaking of was a Victorian era sailor, participated in the bombardment of Alexandria 11 July 1882, then went on to see action at the battle of Tofrek 22 Mar 1885 as Part of the small Naval Brigade Gatling guns crew. He was trained as a Gunnery rating working up thru the various gunnery rates, finally becoming a CPO GI(Gunnery Instructor) at HMS Excellent, the RN Gunnery training establishment on Whale Island, Portsmouth. He qualified as a Warrant Officer but for some reason never took up the appointment, I think perhaps he was happy in his job as a CPO GI & decided to go to pension in that rate. His journal was written up entirely by his hand (his handwriting & drawings, for the period are very beautiful & readable) during the period 1889-90, I will attach a couple photos of the journal itself & the title page. Captain Domville was in Command of HMS Excellent at the time.... Edited 21 September , 2022 by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 21 September , 2022 Share Posted 21 September , 2022 some more photos of the journal pages ..... he must have devoted many an hour to the various gun drawings! I have only shown the few that I have photographed there are many more in his journal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 21 September , 2022 Share Posted 21 September , 2022 (edited) To qualify as an Executive Warrant Officer a rating had to first qualify & pass a pretty rigorous Seamanship examination ... & his Certificate for passing in Gunnery.... Edited 21 September , 2022 by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick M Posted 21 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2022 12 minutes ago, RNCVR said: To qualify as an Executive Warrant Officer a rating had to first qualify & pass a pretty rigorous Seamanship examination ... & his Certificate for passing in Gunnery.... Thank you so much, have you applied tags? It would be great for others to find this. Mick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 21 September , 2022 Share Posted 21 September , 2022 No, uncertain, what are tags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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