KyleSchuette Posted 14 September , 2022 Share Posted 14 September , 2022 Hello, I am new to the forum and have a question about an artillery casing I just bought. I was wondering what the markings Karth and GG we’re on the shell. It also measures about 4 inches( a little over 10cm) in diameter. What artillery would this shell be used with? Thank you for all the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 15 September , 2022 Share Posted 15 September , 2022 (edited) It’s German. Possibly a 10.5cm calibre case, but there was more than one type. What is the exact diameter of the neck in CM/MM and how long is it? Made in June 1909. GG may be the maker mark for Gelsenkirchner Gusstahl Werke. Edited 15 September , 2022 by peregrinvs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleSchuette Posted 15 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2022 Thanks for the reply. It’s a 105 mm neck so it would make sense for it to be a 10.5 cm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awjdthumper Posted 16 September , 2022 Share Posted 16 September , 2022 At that time, the German army was using the 10.5 cm leichte Feldhaubitze (lFH) 98/09 or light field howitzer. The lFH 98 was developed in 1898 without a recoil carriage by Rheinmetall. In 1909, Krupp modernised it with a hydro-spring recoil system - hence the designation 98.09. The shell case was relatively short and, as with most howitzers, it came with up to 7 different charges giving a choice of muzzle velocities and ranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleSchuette Posted 16 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 16 September , 2022 The length of my shell casing is about 20 inches (50 centimeters). Would that be about the correct size for the 98/09 field howitzer shell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awjdthumper Posted 16 September , 2022 Share Posted 16 September , 2022 The 98/09 shell case and was less than 4" long. I think this is therefore a shell case from a 10.5 cm Kanone 04 adopted in 1904 which was basically a heavy field gun rather than an howitzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleSchuette Posted 17 September , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 September , 2022 Thank you for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 October , 2022 Share Posted 15 October , 2022 On 15/09/2022 at 08:54, peregrinvs said: It’s German. Possibly a 10.5cm calibre case, but there was more than one type. What is the exact diameter of the neck in CM/MM and how long is it? Made in June 1909. GG may be the maker mark for Gelsenkirchner Gusstahl Werke. Me thinks properly it should be Gelsenkirchener Gussstahl Werke, based at Gelsenkirchen, BUT, having said that, given its pre-WW1 date, and the absence of a 'W' for Werke, then my German sources indicate it has nothing to do with that factory, the GG stamp being actually a Spandau inspector's mark indicating it was inspected by a man from the Geschützgießerei = 'artillery foundry' department... As I understand it, the system changed in or shortly after August 1914, to make it simpler, but until then all munitions, etc., inspections were done by separate departments. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousFrank Posted 22 November , 2022 Share Posted 22 November , 2022 Hi all - I think I've finally found the right place to answer my long standing question! I too have 2 similar shells to this one from Kyle but I'd appreciate some help to unravel what the limited markings mean. Both shells have clearly been cut down and stand 160mm high and are 110mm diameter. I appreciate any expert insights - thank you in advance. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander McLean Posted 22 November , 2022 Share Posted 22 November , 2022 Hello - I believe that since the bases are made of steel, both of these shell cases are ersatz cases manufactured in 1918. The "18" date on the second is clear, and I believe that the "3" in the "13" on the first is a poorly-stamped "8". [Ersatz shell cases with steel bases were introduced in 1915 and used the remainder of the war.] It would help to see photos of the complete cases. They may not have been cut down. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousFrank Posted 22 November , 2022 Share Posted 22 November , 2022 Hi Torrey - thanks for that. As you can see from this pic they have been cut down. What size might they have been to start with? And they would be from a 10.5 cm Kanone 04? All the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander McLean Posted 23 November , 2022 Share Posted 23 November , 2022 Hello, Frank - Yes, the photos make it obvious that both shell cases were cut down, probably from ersatz 105x505 cases that were made of a combination of brass and steel. [The bases were made of steel, the bottom 150mm of the bodies made of copper, and the remaining 355mm of the bodies made of drawn steel.] To me, these "hybrid" shell cases are the most interesting German shell cases used during the war. I believe that you are correct that they probably were for the long-range K04 and K17 cannons. I may be wrong, but I am fairly certain of this information because I don't know what else they could be. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousFrank Posted 23 November , 2022 Share Posted 23 November , 2022 That's really interesting Torrey - thanks so much for the information. All the best Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 23 November , 2022 Share Posted 23 November , 2022 On 16/09/2022 at 22:55, awjdthumper said: The 98/09 shell case and was less than 4" long. I think this is therefore a shell case from a 10.5 cm Kanone 04 adopted in 1904 which was basically a heavy field gun rather than an howitzer. Yes, it's 92mm long. Mine was made by Polte of Magdeburg in Jan 1916, and it's all made of a good tough, springy brass - probably 70/30 Cu/Zn or thereabouts. At the moment it's full of my Swiss files... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worx Posted 20 January Share Posted 20 January Trying to find the identity of this shell casings On the top the word Patronenfabrik, above this word is a crown with the letter M, to the right the date stamp 1915, at the bottom the word Karisrnhe, either side of this word is what looks like three flower heads? Below this word the number 137. The the left an X (Roman numeral?) the diameter is 115mm or 4.5” no length as machined down. There are two shells here for the minor discrepancies. many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 20 January Share Posted 20 January (edited) IIRC the crowned 'M' means Kaiserliche Marine - Imperial German Navy. I'd guess it's a 10,5cm (called 4.1" by the British) case for the SK L/40 gun. 'Patronenfabrik' means cartridge factory. 'SK' (SchnellfuerKanone) was the equivalent of the British QF (Quick Firing) gun, using fixed ammunition. The 10,5s made up the main armament of many German WW1 warships of the Light Cruiser size range. There's a good photo of one on the Wikipedia page for the SK L/40. At the Battle of the Falkland Islands in 1914, the RN armoured cruiser HMS Cornwall reported SMS Leipzig hitting her with these weapons at ranges of 20,000 yards, before she overwhelmed Leipzig with her larger 6" armament. That range is almost certainly an exaggeration, but the guns and their crews were commented with respect. Edited 20 January by MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worx Posted 20 January Share Posted 20 January Hi MikB thank you for the info it’s very helpful, the casing diameter is 115mm or 4.5”, does this equate to what you’ve said about 10.5 or 4.1”? thanks again for your knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 20 January Share Posted 20 January 39 minutes ago, worx said: Hi MikB thank you for the info it’s very helpful, the casing diameter is 115mm or 4.5”, does this equate to what you’ve said about 10.5 or 4.1”? thanks again for your knowledge My 10,5 cm field howizer case measures about 121 mm diameter across the rim, but about 114 mm across the body immediately in front of the rim. There will be manufacturing tolerances, and there's no other standard calibre close - so I can't see much doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worx Posted 20 January Share Posted 20 January That’s great, thank you, really appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worx Posted 21 January Share Posted 21 January 17 hours ago, MikB said: IIRC the crowned 'M' means Kaiserliche Marine - Imperial German Navy. I'd guess it's a 10,5cm (called 4.1" by the British) case for the SK L/40 gun. 'Patronenfabrik' means cartridge factory. 'SK' (SchnellfuerKanone) was the equivalent of the British QF (Quick Firing) gun, using fixed ammunition. The 10,5s made up the main armament of many German WW1 warships of the Light Cruiser size range. There's a good photo of one on the Wikipedia page for the SK L/40. At the Battle of the Falkland Islands in 1914, the RN armoured cruiser HMS Cornwall reported SMS Leipzig hitting her with these weapons at ranges of 20,000 yards, before she overwhelmed Leipzig with her larger 6" armament. That range is almost certainly an exaggeration, but the guns and their crews were commented with respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worx Posted 21 January Share Posted 21 January Hi MikB, sorry to trouble you again, on the two shells I have, one has an X the other a X1 also 137 number and 141 number, are these just batch numbers for the shells or production dates. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 21 January Share Posted 21 January 1 hour ago, worx said: Hi MikB, sorry to trouble you again, on the two shells I have, one has an X the other a X1 also 137 number and 141 number, are these just batch numbers for the shells or production dates. Thank you Because they're opposite the year, I think these are probably month numbers expressed in Roman, ie. October & November - and I've a faint idea this was only done this way for Naval production; army cases used 'JAN', 'FEB', etc - only 'MAI' and 'OKT' would be different in German. There are others who might know better about the 132 and 141 - my *guess* would be inspector IDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worx Posted 22 January Share Posted 22 January MikB thank you again, you are a fountain of knowledge that has aided my curiosities 🙏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worx Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January Hi MikB, hello again 😁. Offbeat question, the firing pin contact (don’t know the name) on the back of the shell, do you know if this unscrews? Or press fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January They are screwed in, the 3 semi circular depressions, are provided to unscrew with a special tool. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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