No CWGC headstone James Ashton

[ralphjd]

Am I correct in assuming that James would not have a CWGC headstone as he was not a serving soldier at the time of his demise, enlisted in a training reserve 1916, discharged as no longer physically fit etc 1917 and died from heart failure (21) June 1918. He had a full military funeral according to the Rochdale Times report at the time. My friend is pondering whether he should be included in his Rochdale Remembers database. GOD  BLESS THE KING. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

You say he doesn't have a headstone, is he on the CWGC database?

A soldier can be on the database and not have a headstone if he was buried in a family grave.

To be on the database, he would have had to die of a condition related to the cause of his discharge.

 

[PaulC78]

I assume we're talking about this man, James Ashton 65649 Training Reserve:

His service papers say he was discharged on 22 Sep 1917 following a brief period of service, due to "VDH dilation" which was "not result of but aggravated by military service". He doesn't appear to be listed on CWGC, but he looks like a potential case of non-commemoration.

[PaulC78]

Link to the newspaper report mentioned above by Ralph: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0002939%2f19180706%2f056&stringtohighlight=james ashton rochdale

[ralphjd]

3 hours ago, PaulC78 said:

I assume we're talking about this man, James Ashton 65649 Training Reserve:

His service papers say he was discharged on 22 Sep 1917 following a brief period of service, due to "VDH dilation" which was "not result of but aggravated by military service". He doesn't appear to be listed on CWGC, but he looks like a potential case of non-commemoration.

That is most certainly he. Advice needed now re IFTC possible candidate ? Over to you Terry

[PaulC78]

I queried it with Terry who gave the following advice:
 

Quote

 

Short service can be dubious particularly if death occurred some time after discharge.

However, it depends on the military evidence. If it says due to or aggravated by (more likely the second), we will go by that. Short service is unlikely to have been the cause of illnesses such as TB but could have aggravated it.

Always bearing in mind that the illness must be proven to have started post 04.08.14 or have been aggravated by service post that date. A long pre war service can confuse this or leave room for doubt.

Each case has to be looked at individually as they will all differ according to the evidence.

 

You will at the very least need a DC confirming that the cause of death matches the disability.

Burial record on FamilySearch, grave number 28169 at Rochdale Cemetery: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-J3D4-PPTM?i=469&cat=1003215

[PaulC78]

Photo now on Find-a-Grave, he is buried in an unmarked plot.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/243430372/james-ashton

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I wonder if @ralphjd evr obtained his DC?

[ralphjd]

Thanks for bringing this up, completely forgot about it, my friend is considering about his inclusion to his database of Rochdale WW1 casualties, I will put this to him when I see him on Thursday if he is prepared to pay for the DC, his decision not mine. Cheers Ralph.

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening All

I would have thought that if he was given a full military funeral he would have been entitled to a C W G C headstone?

Regards

Andy

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

30 minutes ago, andrew pugh said:

Good Evening All

I would have thought that if he was given a full military funeral he would have been entitled to a C W G C headstone?

Regards

Andy

To qualify for CWGC commemoration, you had to die in service, or die after service from the same condition that caused your discharge. Unfortunately, in the absence of service records, other corroborative evidence has to be found.
A death certificate can confirm the cause of death, and for this case to progress, it is probably mandatory,  but trying to show that this was due to the cause of discharge is often difficult and result in the case failing.

[andrew pugh]

Hi Dai

The point I am trying to make is this. If he died as mentioned earlier in this thread "Quote "He was not a serving soldier at the time of his demise, dying in June 1918. And yet it is recorded by the Rochdale Times that he had a Military Funeral. How come?. Something is wrong here. His pension records on Ancestry show that his Short Service Attestation he was declared fit for military service, and yet it is recorded that he suffered illnesses as a child in 1909. And they have admitted that his discharge due to VDH (Vascular Dilation Haemorrhage) was aggravated by military service. He still had to attend regularly for check ups relating to his illness and military pension entitlement. and succumbed to that aggravated illness brought on by military service while the war was still in progress. In comparison I know of a case of a soldier who was working in a timber yard in France in the back areas and he banged his head on a wooden post and cut his forehead and against his officers advice he claimed a wound stripe and got it. Pte James Ashtons pension records  both make interesting reading.

Regards

Andy

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Being discharged from the army on medical grounds and having a 'military funeral' (according to the press) aren't mutually exclusive.

He was discharged because of VDH (Valvular Disease of the Heart). The solution to the OPs original question is easy - get a Death Certificate which shows Valvular Disease of the Heart as the cause or contributory factor.

If he was a victim of murder, suicide, pneumonia, TB or an accident, then he wouldn't be considered by CWGC.

 

Edited 27 October , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[ralphjd]

Request for the DC on it's way chaps. Ralph

[Interested]

Please keep us posted on the results of your search, very interesting.

[ralphjd]

That goes without saying my mate.

[Mark Hone]

There are similarities here with the case of Harold Ashworth Shaw, from Bury,  who resigned his commission on medical grounds, died soon after, received a military funeral but is not commemorated by the CWGC.  He is recorded on the Bury Grammar School War Memorial, so I included him in the Centenary Roll of Honour which I compiled and started a thread about him on the GWF a few years ago. I attach the Roll of Honour entry I wrote for him. Like James Ashton, Harold Shaw had apparently suffered ill health in childhood, missing an entire term's education at school, probably for that reason

 

BGBSROH000021.pdf

Edited 27 October , 2023 by Mark Hone

[Matlock1418]

Military funerals back then, as now, were organised by the military, but commonly by an unrelated local unit, and not by CWGC, so different criteria/rules could easily have applied.

I'm going to follow this thread with interest.  As mentioned the medical details seem likely to be crux here.

M

Edited 30 October , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[andrew pugh]

Hi All

Just an observation. I noticed on his Short Attestation Papers he was asked have you ever served in any branch of H M Forces. Recorded written answer was yes, It looks like 5th Bn O B L I could anybody confirm this the writing is terrible as usual on a lot of these documents. Is there any record of S W B or medals?

Regards

Andy

[ralphjd]

Seen a photostat copy of the death entry for him states (1)" Mitral Stenosis (2) Asthaenia due to mitral disease. ". Comments ?

[ralphjd]

On 27/10/2023 at 23:48, andrew pugh said:

Hi All

Just an observation. I noticed on his Short Attestation Papers he was asked have you ever served in any branch of H M Forces. Recorded written answer was yes, It looks like 5th Bn O B L I could anybody confirm this the writing is terrible as usual on a lot of these documents. Is there any record of S W B or medals?

Regards

Andy

5th Batt V B L I  Volunteer Battalion Light Infantry Time expired crossed out

[Matlock1418]

On 11/09/2022 at 10:17, ralphjd said:

died from heart failure (21) June 1918

On 11/09/2022 at 11:17, PaulC78 said:

His service papers say he was discharged on 22 Sep 1917 following a brief period of service, due to "VDH dilation" which was "not result of but aggravated by military service".

27 minutes ago, ralphjd said:

Seen a photostat copy of the death entry for him states (1)" Mitral Stenosis (2) Asthaenia due to mitral disease. ".

Ooh, aah, err? Close but tricky! ???

I feel sure Dai @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr will be along soon.

On 27/10/2023 at 23:48, andrew pugh said:

5th Bn O B L I

5th Bn Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry / 5th Ox & Bucks ??? .... See response below

13 minutes ago, ralphjd said:

5th Batt V B L I  Volunteer Battalion Light Infantry Time expired crossed out

Which is it - OBLI or VBLI ???

M

Edited 30 October , 2023 by Matlock1418
strike

[ralphjd]

It is VBLI

[Matlock1418]

Just now, ralphjd said:

It is VBLI

Fair enough - so I'll strike Ox & Bucks!

M

[PaulC78]

Mitral stenosis is a form of valvular heart disease (VDH). I can't access his records at the moment but on the face of it there appears to be a case here.