Genuine or not? (UK Victory Medal)

[tankengine888]

Hello!

I collected my first medal for 75 AUD today, a Victory Medal to Joseph Claude Doolin (AIF, embarked Nov 1916). Main question is.. is it genuine or not?

If there is something in particular that I need to photograph, let me know,

Tank.

Edited 28 August , 2022 by tankengine888

[Ivor Anderson]

Looks genuine to me. From an Ancestry family tree- "Pte. Joseph Claude Doolin (1891-1958) - Serv. No. 2791 AIF ~ 36th Battalion - Joseph was injured on the 27th July 1917, in between the Battle of Messines and Third Battle of Ypres. It's noted on his records he received GSW to his eye and thigh, which would have most likely been from shrapnel from German bombing their lines." https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/48225245/person/292298899741/facts

Edited 28 August , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[tankengine888]

7 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Looks genuine to me. From an Ancestry family tree- "Pte. Joseph Claude Doolin (1891-1958) - Serv. No. 2791 AIF ~ 36th Battalion - Joseph was injured on the 27th July 1917, in between the Battle of Messines and Third Battle of Ypres. It's noted on his records he received GSW to his eye and thigh, which would have most likely been from shrapnel from German bombing their lines." https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/48225245/person/292298899741/facts

I saw the photo, but as I was on phone I didn't look further to see what else there was. GSW Eye... Possibly lost his eye? 
Thanks Ivor,
Tank.

[chaz]

from the looks of the pictures it does look genuine, stamping of name and patina.

one thing I would suggest, is to remove from the plastic sleeve, I find they sweat and any signs of corrosion , the green stains, do tend to grow in damp conditions.

As I understand it, check the outside diameter rim for signs of filing down and re naming. the thin rim should be equal all around , also the suspension ring had some variations.

the ribbon does look period, not a later style, but thats not anything to rule out as many people / collectors do change them for display.

 

if in doubt join us here https://britishmedalforum.com/viewforum.php?f=3 and have a look.

[tankengine888]

1 minute ago, chaz said:

from the looks of the pictures it does look genuine, stamping of name and patina.

one thing I would suggest, is to remove from the plastic sleeve, I find they sweat and any signs of corrosion , the green stains, do tend to grow in damp conditions.

As I understand it, check the outside diameter rim for signs of filing down and re naming. the thin rim should be equal all around , also the suspension ring had some variations.

the ribbon does look period, not a later style, but thats not anything to rule out as many people / collectors do change them for display.

 

if in doubt join us here https://britishmedalforum.com/viewforum.php?f=3 and have a look.

Got very sweaty hands currently, so bare with me.
I removed the sleeve, where should I put it? I'm very very new to this... The only other medals I have are of my grandfathers which are in their case. The medal's rim [and reverse] is quite faded, but still readable. I believe the ribbon is a replacement, it's too good condition.

Corrosion is seen on the top right of the medal rim.
I wonder what became of his BWM as it was not also for sale. 
Thanks Chaz,
Tank

Sidenote: I saw his record and he was in action for just under a month before getting a blighty wound!

[Alan24]

14 minutes ago, chaz said:

one thing I would suggest, is to remove from the plastic sleeve,

I do hate it when dealers staple the ribbons, they also tend to rust.

6 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

I wonder what became of his BWM as it was not also for sale. 

Being 0.925 silver, could have been melted down at some point for its intrinsic value.

But you never know, it might be out there.

. 

[Coldstreamer]

Many war medals have been melted down  over time because of the silver content, The British war medal being one of those

[tankengine888]

13 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said:

Many war medals have been melted down  over time because of the silver content, The British war medal being one of those

I am aware of this, but would've thought that was UK only.. but I wasn't around then, so yeah.

 

14 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

But you never know, it might be out there.

I hope it's still around.. 

Tank.

[chaz]

there were many melted down, but some pawn shop /loan shop owners actually put them aside and thought of them as a pension fund. There has been a few topics on the medal forum about recent finds of groups of BWM's. there have been auction house listings of 8 or 10  medals being consigned. 

You could be under cost competition due to his Australian connection and as already found, you are talking around £44 yours against £25 for a standard victory.

as for the green. verdigris on it, you can get a polish but might have to use a stiff tooth brush to initial clean. again the BMF has a few topics on cleaning and preserving.

some collectors keep theirs in drawers, even the glue used to hold the felt down in the drawers can bring on corrosion. if you have sticky/sweaty fingers a gentle clean and dry woth a soft cloth will help. the plastic sleeves can sweat, inducing moisture into the medal, a hole in the back of the sleeve can allow air in but if moisture gets in, the plastic will keep it there

[chaz]

over here , we set up searches on ebay, Thesaleroom medaltracker and google to get tip offs for medals. 

three of my great uncles groups came back to me after waiting years via a search set up on thesaleroom (auction site)

[Jim Strawbridge]

Looks genuine to me. As it's your first medal take care as collecting can become a compulsion which your pocket may not like. Now do some research. Here's a starter for ten.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=8728114&isAv=N

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=22340685&isAv=N

and best of all :- https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=3515689

 

Edited 28 August , 2022 by Jim Strawbridge

[PhilB]

The VM looks good to me too!

I`m trying to value some of my medals for insurance purposes. Can anyone advise on a 14/15 trio to 135 Pte A P Martin, 32 Aust Inf Bn, KIA Fromelles 20/7/16, commemd at VC Corner, Fromelles?

Edited 28 August , 2022 by PhilB

[Jim Strawbridge]

My head is above the parapet. £750 ?

[GWF1967]

8 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Hello!

I collected my first medal for 75 AUD today, a Victory Medal to Joseph Claude Doolin 

Tank.

Congratulations. As you have access to a service record and photograph, (rare as golden eggs for many UK collectors) perhaps a framed display as a project. 
 

[tankengine888]

9 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Congratulations. As you have access to a service record and photograph, (rare as golden eggs for many UK collectors) perhaps a framed display as a project. 

That'll be an order when I get the time over the second half of school holidays.. 

26 minutes ago, Jim Strawbridge said:

Looks genuine to me. As it's your first medal take care as collecting can become a compulsion which your pocket may not like. Now do some research. Here's a starter for ten.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=8728114&isAv=N

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=22340685&isAv=N

and best of all :- https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=3515689

 

First 2 are unavailable, but I already know how to navigate there, a large thanks is still in order!

I'm still quite happy I got this medal!

Tank.


EDIT:
@PhilB I saw a 14-15 Trio for a July 1915 Embarker for around 300-400 AUD [~200 Pounds]

Edited 28 August , 2022 by tankengine888

[Jim Strawbridge]

@PhilB I saw a 14-15 Trio for a July 1915 Embarker for around 300-400 AUD [~200 Pounds]

 

PhilB's is a "killed in action" one so not easy to compare.

[tankengine888]

Just now, Jim Strawbridge said:

PhilB's is a "killed in action" one so not easy to compare.

This is true.. But I think it also depends on the service record, merit, etc.

Not sure if circumstances of death matters.. but it is stated here. 
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=188802

Tank.

[chaz]

very difficult valuations. just edited  prices for other ranks, or junior NCO's officers.. extra

1975 I bought a trio and plaque to a local for £15, as local regiment now worth £300, had he been ASC, as low as £150, an RE Tunneler located at the scene of an explosion £300 but with no connection £200. I picked up my great uncles trios with plaques (2) and trio (survived) local regiments for £800 . I had to pay as been searching for years.

Aussie tend to go more top and over.  then factor in date of death, March offensive, 1/7 Somme etc a T&P £750, a VC action, as long as he was there and not off duty at rest or medical.. KIA, DIED, DOW, died at home.

finally factor in, family connection, as my 3 trios, I wanted them so had to pay for them..

Edited 28 August , 2022 by chaz

[PhilB]

17 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

This is true.. But I think it also depends on the service record, merit, etc.

Not sure if circumstances of death matters.. but it is stated here. 
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=188802

Tank.

Thanks for that Tank.

Actually, I would think that Fromelles figures as a major action for Aussies?

Edited 28 August , 2022 by PhilB

[tankengine888]

16 minutes ago, chaz said:

very difficult valuations. just edited  prices for other ranks, or junior NCO's officers.. extra

1975 I bought a trio and plaque to a local for £15, as local regiment now worth £300, had he been ASC, as low as £150, an RE Tunneler located at the scene of an explosion £300 but with no connection £200. I picked up my great uncles trios with plaques (2) and trio (survived) local regiments for £800 . I had to pay as been searching for years.

Aussie tend to go more top and over.  then factor in date of death, March offensive, 1/7 Somme etc a T&P £750, a VC action, as long as he was there and not off duty at rest or medical.. KIA, DIED, DOW, died at home.

finally factor in, family connection, as my 3 trios, I wanted them so had to pay for them..

15 Pounds for a trio and plaque!?!?!?! That's very cheap! then again, it was 1975 as you said.

In Australia, there are not many 'local' regiments [I.E, 8th Battalion recruited from VIC, 10th Battalion recruited from SA].
VC Actions count? interesting! But the again, everything is a factor since each medal tells a story.
Welp, if it were one of my relatives set, i'd try to buy it!

 

2 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Thanks for that Tank.

Service Record: https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=2017143
Red Cross: https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1052190/document/5639861.PDF
Couldn't find a photo unfortunately. Funnily enough, I had relatives in Tunbridge Wells, Kent though only distantly.

Tank.

[GWF1967]

7 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

“ -  everything is a factor since each medal tells a story “

 Very true  -  every medal, Id tag, named photograph etc. leads to a story of a man who did his bit. 

Edited 28 August , 2022 by GWF1967

[tankengine888]

Just now, GWF1967 said:

Very true  -  every medal, Id tag, named photograph etc. leads to a story of a man who did his bit. 

I will admit one thing... seeing the medal that they would've won/worn is more interesting than looking on the War Memorial and/or the archives in my opinion. 

Anyways, sleep is required!
Tank.

[PhilB]

As Pte Martin`s mother lived in Tunbridge Wells, what might the role of the Kent Colonising Association have been in his being in Oz?

Her place of abode looks fairly substantial for he period:-

Edited 28 August , 2022 by PhilB

[tankengine888]

53 minutes ago, PhilB said:

As Pte Martin`s mother lived in Tunbridge Wells, what might the role of the Kent Colonising Association have been in his being in Oz?

Her place of abode looks fairly substantial for he period:-

I am merely remembering very slightly (very tired at least), and I remember seeing that he was on the 1911 Census in Tunbridge Wells, relationship 'Inmate' and occupation 'Student', living with non-family.

Will confirm that tomorrow,

Tank

 

[tankengine888]

Forgot about this.. sorry Phil.
He lived at Shaftesbury House, 67 Perry Rise, Forest Hill S E


 

Tank.