Flesquieres

[johntaylor]

10 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Not wishing to contradict anyone or confuse, my curious mind has been reading the 176 Infantry Brigade WD.   WO 95 3020-2_3  On 29th at 5 30 pm the Brigade HQ  moved from la justice L 1 d 90. 45. to Flesquieres K 24 b 2. 8.   20486 Private Charles Onions body was found at grid ref K 24 a 8. 6. which looks to me to be in a trench looking at the map. That is very close to the Brigade HQ, which is in a wood or in the remains of a wood at this stage of the war. Only 150, max 300 yards apart. The 177 Infantry Brigade came forward and took over defense of  the village of Flesquieres which by orders had to be held at all costs. So was Pte Onions part of the HQ 176 Infantry Brigade men? I need to read a bit more to get my head around the situation. Regards, Bob.

Hi, this doesn't contradict anyone but I don't think it reveals any more about the fate of Private Onion. It's slightly misleading to say his body was "found" at K.24.a.8.6 - this was the location of an established cemetery which had been in use since November 20, and would still be there today if the IWGC hadn't been compelled to move the bodies to Orival Wood in 1930. From the map reference, it seems to have been just outside the wooded grounds of Flesquières Château, adjoining one of the German trenches taken on the first day of the battle.

The War Diary of 2/6th Bn South Staffs Regt tells us they were accommodated in the Château (which was damaged but still habitable) on December 2 and it seems likely that a number of men wounded in the gas bombardment in Bourlon Wood sadly succumbed to the effects of gas while they were there: a quick look through the burial reports shows Privates H. Bennett, T. Carr and G. Ross from 2/6th Bn were also buried in Flesquières Château Cemetery on the same day, and there may have been others. The 59th Division casualty list I posted above shows 3 ORs were killed in the battalion up to December 2 but hundreds were wounded, so the list was probably prepared before divisional HQ had been informed of these subsequent deaths (we already know of four men who died).

It's correct that 176 Brigade HQ was located in another area of the Château grounds, but there's no evidence to connect this with Private Onion. The Brigade HQ War Diary doesn't record any casualties at this time, and they were there primarily because it was still a relatively safe area - though increasingly threatened by the German counter-attack which had begun on November 30 and succeeded in wiping out some (but not all) of the gains made during the British advance. 

There was clearly a great deal of frantic activity as a result of the German attack, but it didn't involve 2/6th Bn South Staffs Regt which was effectively hors de combat due to the heavy losses in Bourlon Wood. The battalion was pulled further back to Ribécourt, then to Havrincourt, and finally to Ytres.

One way of testing this explanation would be to find all the casualties from 2/6th Bn South Staffs Regt over this period, and then investigate these further to see if there are any service records or newspaper reports describing the circumstances of their deaths.

I see there is also a War History of the Sixth Battalion, The South Staffordshire Regiment (T.F.) published in 1924 which seems to cover both 1/6th and 2/6th Bns - I don't have access to a copy but it would be interesting to see what it says about these events.

All the best, 

John

 

 

 

Edited 11 August , 2022 by johntaylor

[flintman]

Hi John 
I totally agree it is not possible to identify specifics about Pte Onion in this case from map locations etc. I doubt any personal details or accounts will be found. I am not ruling that out though. 
In Jones History if the South Staffordshire Regiment there is a short section on the 2/5 th and 2/6th Btns.It says in November the 2 Battalions were holding the line near Ribecourt repelling 2 powerful enemy attacks on December 1st at Havrincourt Wood  - later in month 2/5th carried out a successful raid. Nothing more, 

The 2nd Btn SSR were also ar Haverincourt and Bourlon Wood and is covered well in the book but the  2/6th are not mentioned. 
 

Some officer group photos on 2/6th Btn in the 1/6th SSR History but they (1/6th) were not involved around Bourlon Wood  area and no narrative.(Named 2/6th Group Officers photo Salisbury Plain Feb 1917 and a long distance photo of 2/6th Btn un - named - Feb 17) 

The speed of all this via my phone has completely overtaken my reading around this topic and my intention is to put all the factual data together including all maps from this post and all the books I have.
There will be no conclusions drawn about Pte Onion.
It does expand my understanding of the 2/6th Btn SSR in this area and all the complexities around researching an individual case. Clive 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Davies]

6 hours ago, johntaylor said:

Hi, this doesn't contradict anyone but I don't think it reveals any more about the fate of Private Onion. It's slightly misleading to say his body was "found" at K.24.a.8.6 - this was the location of an established cemetery which had been in use since November 20, and would still be there today if the IWGC hadn't been compelled to move the bodies to Orival Wood in 1930. From the map reference, it seems to have been just outside the wooded grounds of Flesquières Château, adjoining one of the German trenches taken on the first day of the battle.

Hi John, thank you for your post and explanations. I now see the whole thing a bit clearer now. Having had a look on the CWGC site it all drops into place with your explanation. I will continue looking at the casualties as you suggest, though I am drawing a blank so far.  Major Blathwayt  RFA  KIA Nov 30th is the best described so far but tells us nothing that I can see. link here;https://www.ukphotoarchive.org.uk/de-ruvignys-roll-of-honour-vol-4-b/hAC07A921#hac07afa1 However described as died on the CWGC site as are most of the men that rest there? Some interesting pictures here and a tank!;  https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/orival-wood-british-cemetery.html Captain Atkinson  2/6th S/Staffs died 30th Nov,  may turn up something? Best Wishes, Bob.

[Bob Davies]

17 hours ago, flintman said:

Hi Bob

Got the map ✔️

Hello Clive and all, nothing showing up regarding Pte Onion, however the WDs from the 2/1st 2/2nd and the 2/3rd North Midland Field Ambulance give some good detail in writing and grid references of Regimental Aid Posts,  Advanced Dressing Stations and a rough sketch map of the Bourlon wood, down to la justice and Flesquieres. I can post the references on here or maybe you want to see and read it all for yourself? Bob. The sketch map below is courtesy of the National Archives war diary 2/2 North Midland Field Ambulance  WO 95 3018-2_1

[brianmorris547]

This 1 : 10 000 map showing the area is from the 1917 WD of 1 East Kents, WO 95/1608. (page 331 on Ancestry). I've cropped it to zoom in on Flesquieres. Thought it might help.

Brian

[flintman]

 Hi John, Bob and Bryan,

Thanks for all of your maps and information. How do you find it all so quickly ! 
I will use your guidance Ref to track down 2NMFA. 
I have tried to look at casualties for 30/11/17 - 2/6th in Orival Wood Cem and most are those transferred from Flesquieres Chateau Cem. 
An Officer (Atkinson) was a Wolverhampton man and lived about 1/4 mile from my house. Killed 30/11/17. Buried Orival Wood. 
Thanks for all of your work. 
Clive 
 

[Bob Davies]

5 minutes ago, flintman said:

Hi John, Bob and Bryan,

Thanks for all of your maps and information. How do you find it all so quickly ! 
I will use your guidance Ref to track down 2NMFA. 
I have tried to look at casualties for 30/11/17 - 2/6th in Orival Wood Cem and most are those transferred from Flesquieres Chateau Cem. 
An Officer (Atkinson) was a Wolverhampton man and lived about 1/4 mile from my house. Killed 30/11/17. Buried Orival Wood. 
Thanks for all of your work. 
Clive 

Hi Clive, in my case it is an enquiring mind and then I am like a dog looking for his bone , it is there somewhere,dig, dig, dig,...also having learnt from others on this forum who are quicker and more knowledgeable. A few days off work helps too I feel it is a good thing to do in helping others as others have helped me for a common interest and no material gain. I will put together a list of places/grid refs from the 2/2 and 2/3 NMFA tomorrow. Link to 2/2 NMFA here;  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355174There is not a lot on the 2/1 NMFA WD other than this wonderful snippet;

[flintman]

Thanks Bob. 
I share your views and thank heavens for the GWF. 
What a wonderful diary entry. 
Sort of jolts you back to the realities of the conditions they faced day by day. 
I can’t wait to have a look closely at all the contributions and maps.

Clive 

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, flintman said:

Thanks Bob. 
I share your views and thank heavens for the GWF. 
What a wonderful diary entry. 
Sort of jolts you back to the realities of the conditions they faced day by day. 
I can’t wait to have a look closely at all the contributions and maps.

Clive 

My pleasure Clive. So it certainly looks the way @johntaylorhas described it to be. Pte Onion is wounded in Bourlon wood, either through being gassed or a wound from high explosive. I would guess the latter and goes down the evacuation chain to the MDS at Flesquieres grid ref 57C L 24 b. 3.7. where he succumbs to his wounds and is buried close by in the cemetery at grid ref 57C 24 A 8.6. Screen shot courtesy of the National archives showing the evacuation route (2/2 NMFA);

Edited 12 August , 2022 by Bob Davies