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Remembered Today:

Flesquieres


flintman

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Good Afternoon,

I expect you will all be in your gardens but can I ask for your assistance please. 
I attach a map showing location of a British infantry man’s original burial in Flesquieres Chateau Cemetery. 
Later transferred to a different cemetery  
I just wondered if anyone with local knowledge of this area and the Deborah tank story could indicate if it was found anywhere near to this body location? An “x” marks the spot on my map would be much appreciated if it fits into my photo. I do not know the area well but greatly enjoyed my visit to the Tank Museum and found that I had a British soldier to research as above although he had no connection to this or any tank directly. Someone told me Deborah tank was found nearbye - in the same field but would like to know if that’s correct ?Thanks to all who review this. 
Thanks

Clive F84940D7-FFAC-429D-88CF-B664A2AE0F6D.jpeg.20c295d4b1db66e8caf069e5f0312f2c.jpeg 

 


 

 

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@johntayloris probably the man to help you. 

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Thanks for your help Michelle. 
Will track him down - I can see he wrote the book on Deborah  

Thanks

clive 


 

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With any luck my tag will alert him to your post. 

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Thanks Peter. 
That’s great. 
My casualty was buried almost immediately right of Deborah,s final resting place. Next field possibly. 
Can’t say how far away at moment. 
Deborah was  hit 22/8/17. 
Seems it had travelled or been moved quite a distance from its first direct hit. 
My book on Deborah is out on loan at moment so will scrutinise when returned. 
My research into the above casualty shows he was killed 1st or 2nd December 1917 whilst In the 2/6th Battalion South Staffordshire Regiment and only transferred to Orival Cemetery in 1920. It seems the Flesquieres Chateau Cem was near to Deborah,s final resting place. 
Need to carry out further enquiries but many thanks for these co ordinates and to Michelle and all those who have considered my posting. 
Remembering 20486 Private Charles Onion from Stretton, Staffordshire (Near Brewood) killed in action 1st December 1917 (CWGC) Age 19. He was in the 2/6th Battalion South Staffs Regt in support of the attack on Bourlon Wood The Battalion suffered very heavy casualties.

His Pay Book Will was signed by him 1/7/1916 - At this time he was in the 1st Battalion. Attack on Mametz.
Some  Officers who signed his Pay “In the Field” were killed on this fateful day although he survived either by luck perhaps or maybe he was held in reserve (?)  

I placed a cross upon his grave when I visited his grave in Orival Cemetery  last November  RIP  

Clive 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello all, a very interesting thread thanks for posting Clive and remembering 20486 Private Charles Onion. An interesting map from the National Library Scotland from 21st September 1918 gives locations of derelict tanks in the area. Screen shot from the map below courtesy NLScotland. Link to map here; https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465167 Regards, Bob.image.png.ee25a23eafea69c98c70eb2dd08741d1.png

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7 hours ago, flintman said:

My casualty was buried almost immediately right of Deborah,s final resting place. Next field possibly. 
Can’t say how far away at moment. 

Around 200 metres.

image.png.2c9f48f1f16f2582bb994230bf922df8.png

Click to enlarge map below.  Using Peter's data, Deborah's recovery position is bottom left (yellow) pin and PTE Onion was initially buried 200 yards ESE, just as you say.  Deborah was hit just to the left of the word FLESQUIERES,

image.png.c9f1176b12c0328031e348b76d736f2c.png

image.png.3020fc8820b7867c5fffefde8283b3a3.png

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15 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Around 200 metres.

image.png.2c9f48f1f16f2582bb994230bf922df8.png

Click to enlarge map below.  Using Peter's data, Deborah's recovery position is bottom left (yellow) pin and PTE Onion was initially buried 200 yards ESE, just as you say.  Deborah was hit just to the left of the word FLESQUIERES,

image.png.c9f1176b12c0328031e348b76d736f2c.png

image.png.3020fc8820b7867c5fffefde8283b3a3.png

 

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Hi 
I thought I had submitted a thank you to you all for your valued contributions. 
Also some extra research and another map of interest. 
I can’t find it in this listing now and it seems to have disappeared. !??
Will try and post it again tomorrow. 
Watch this space. 
Thanks to all. 
clive 

4 minutes ago, flintman said:

 

 

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13 hours ago, flintman said:

Hi 
I thought I had submitted a thank you to you all for your valued contributions. 
Also some extra research and another map of interest. 
I can’t find it in this listing now and it seems to have disappeared. !??
Will try and post it again tomorrow. 
Watch this space. 
Thanks to all. 
clive 

Hello Clive, yes you did thank us all which we appreciate very much. If I can explain to you why I added a map in my post, it is because I have an interest in what you are talking about also I know that others on the forum do too. Without this things get a little tedious. With my best regards to you Bob. An edit here; I used the wrong word, sorry. I should have said "difficult to understand" instead of "a little tedious"

Edited by Bob Davies
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Hi Clive, apologies for the delay in responding - I was enjoying the Commonwealth Games in Brum, but am now back and catching up on your very interesting post. I see you've already had quite a few replies so I'll see if there's anything more I can add.

All the best,

John

 

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Hi John 

An excellent Games. 
I tried to put on an extra map and some more info last night. 
I don’t know why it’s not there now 

I will try again later but I think I am quite close to identifying where the South Staffs 2/6th were relieved around the date in question. Will do that later. 
Thanks 

Clive 

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Hi, the Games was certainly an amazing event and couldn't have gone better for Birmingham, which I'm delighted about!

I've had a look through the records and the information given above is broadly correct. On the TrenchMapper map above, the spot where Deborah was knocked out should be a fraction to the north, i.e. on the road (roughly between the words "Rue" and "du" on the map).   I believe the location of Flesquières Château British Cemetery should be a fraction further south, i.e. in the field just south of the wood.

You're correct that the cemetery was a relatively short distance from where Deborah was later discovered, but this is a coincidence (apart from the fact that they were both situated along the same German trench line, known as the Zwischenstellung).

Deborah was knocked out in the centre of the village (see location above) on 20 November 1917, and her crew were buried on the other side of the road. She remained there until at least March 1919, when she was dragged across the village by a salvage crew during the battlefield clear-up and buried, almost certainly in a hole excavated by the Germans for use as a bunker.

Flesquières Château British Cemetery was one of two small battlefield cemeteries created during the British advance which were concentrated after the war - the other was 51st Divisional Cemetery at K.24.c.7.2.  Both these were concentrated to Orival Wood British Cemetery in 1930 following unsuccessful negotiations by the IWGC (later CWGC) to acquire the two sites, leaving them with no choice but to remove the bodies.

The question is why Pte Onion was buried in Flesquières, because 2/6th Bn South Staffs suffered heavy casualties in Bourlon Wood some way to the north - see the first entry from their War Diary below, which shows they were bombarded by gas shells on November 29-30. The answer is probably that the battalion was so weakened that it had to be withdrawn and was accommodated in Flesquières Château - see second War Diary extract below.

Soldiers Died in the Great War shows Pte Onion was "killed in action" rather than "died of wounds", but it's likely that the latter was correct. He was almost certainly wounded during the gas attack in Bourlon Wood and died during or after the move to Flesquières on the night of 1-2 December (this could explain why CWGC and SDGW give the date of death as 1 December, whereas the original cross apparently gave the date as 2 December).

I also had a quick look for newspaper reports which might confirm this, and the only mention I could find of him was in the Burton Observer and Chronicle on 4 January 1917 saying he had been reported wounded during the previous three months. Unfortunately I couldn't find a service record, though you'll have seen in the medal register that he also served in the 1st and 9th Bns of the South Staffs Regt.

My conclusion is that he was wounded during the gas bombardment in Bourlon Wood and buried in Flesquières, which is where the battalion was then quartered. The cemetery was quite close to where Deborah was buried after the war, but there was no connection between these two events.

Thanks for raising this question, and thanks also to Bob Davies for the amazing trench map showing derelict tanks which I hadn't seen before, and is a tremendous find!

I hope this is useful,

John

 

WD extract 1.jpg

WD extract 2.jpg

Edited by johntaylor
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Good Afternoon,

Thanks for  your detailed reply John.

Thanks to Michelle, Peter, White Star Line, Bob and John for all of your help and excellent maps and information. 

I have looked at some of the War Diary entries relevant to the 176th Brigade, 59th Div to which 2/6th SSR belonged, around the date of death. 
 I have always thought Pte C Onion was killed in theGas/HE shells in Bourlon Wood. Terrible casualty figures.
That was until I visited in November 21. This resulted in my posting here.Why Flesquieres Chateau Cemetery, seems much closer than Bourlon Wood ?

Now may I refer you to 2/4th Leicester Regiment War Diary for 1st December 1917. It confirms they were part of 2nd North Midland Div and:

“relieved the 2/6 th North Staffs and 2/6th South Staffs in the front and support lines of the left sub sector. Relief complete 12.30am Bn HQ. 
Map  Ref is F. 13.c .8.2  “

NB: On Tmapper it puts  Btn HQ sort of South of Bourlon Wood , Just North of Anneux  I have no idea what this does to my following observations as I don’t really know how this single map Ref relates in practice  to the actual relief of the 2/6th SSR.

It is however quoted in the 2/4th Leicester’s diary for 1/12/17. Look at it on tmapper.

The entry on 1/12/17 2/4th Leicesters puts the “Place” map Ref as I think:

57C L 2 C 81 - I have taken this as 

57C L 2 80 10 - for tmapper purposes.

it refers to the “place” as:

“La Justice “ which I could not find on my current French Atlas but did find it on page 146 Tour 4 of jack Horsfall and Nigel Caves excellent Bourlon Wood  Battleground Guide  

It also shows the general area in which the Bn HQ can be imagined from the above map Ref so puts all relevant locations into some context  

Looking at 2/12/17 entry it seems the 2/4th Leicesters had already taken over front line and support trenches. 
If that relief took place 1/12/17 at La Justice, this is indicating a position south of Bourlon Wood and in fact nearer to Orival Wood if you look at page 146 Tour 4  ( I havnt put a copy of that on as I don’t know if it’s correct to do so - copyright ( GWF Rules )

it’s useful to look at this map.

I am now wondering if Pte C Onion was in the process of moving back from the support/front lines on or around 1/12/17 -2/12/17 around La justice when he met with his death. Nearer to Flesquieres at that time  ? 
I have no real knowledge or grasp of this area or of the detail surrounding the action in this area. I am only thinking through the small amount of detail in the War Diary of 2/4th Leicesters who relieved 2/6th SSR on 1/12/17. I don’t know if upon relief all survivors would go back to the Btn HQ or a to a different point for (I assume) a Roll Call in which case
57c F 13 C 8.2  Btn HQ Ref: might be more relevant to placing the relieved troops. ( I am just summising here) 
I have not studied any books in depth  here - havnt had time - you have all been so quick, for which I thank you. 
I am asking you just to look at the brief details and map references in 2/4th Leicesters War Diary -1/12/17 & 2/12/17 . Does this alter the picture as you see it  in any way?

I don’t know the distances involved but wouldn’t the relief have had to have taken place nearer to or in Bourlon Wood itself for him to have been killed there ?

Or, had the relieved troops  in fact returned to support lines a distance awa from Bourlon Wood  awaiting relief by the 2/4th Leicestershire Regiment at which time he and 2 others in 2/6th SSR were killed?

I am sure there is no perfect answer here and all areas around Bourlon Wood subject to artillery fire etc so wherever he was it could all be described as “awaiting relief”  (I have no knowledge only questions )

I will try and post some images now.

I promise I will leave it at this now but many thanks to all who have contributed and followed this post. My intention being to try and get as close as possible to the story surrounding Pte C  Onion who is remembered I believed in Brewood Roman Catholic Church. 
Thanks

Clive 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2.4th Leicester Regiment War Diary December 1917 

Map: 2/4th Leicester Regiment 

Map Ref: 57c L 2 C 80 10 

la Justice “Relief “ ie of 2/6th North Staffs & 2/6th South Staffs Regiment  

See : page 146 of Battleground Bourlon Wood  - it shows La Justice Location in relation to Bourlon Wood, Annex, Orival Wood, Flesquieres . 

 

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21 minutes ago, flintman said:

 I have always thought Pte C Onion was killed in the Gas/HE shells in Bourlon Wood. Terrible casualty figures.
That was until I visited in November 21. This resulted in my posting here. Why Flesquieres Chateau Cemetery, seems much closer than Bourlon Wood ?

. . .
I am now wondering if Pte C Onion was in the process of moving back from the support/front lines on or around 1/12/17 -2/12/17 around La justice when he met with his death. Nearer to Flesquieres at that time  ? 

Hi Clive, I think these questions were answered in my posting - the records show that Private Onion's battalion was withdrawn to Flesquières on December 1-2 after being heavily shelled in Bourlon Wood on November 30. There is no record of them suffering any further casualties at that time. It seems probable that he died during or after the move to Flesquières and was buried in the nearby battlefield cemetery. The only question-mark is that SDGW shows he was killed in action rather than died of wounds, but everything else seems to fit.

The War Diary of 59th Division shows the extent of the casualties suffered by 2/6th Bn South Staffs Regiment:image.png.8b5e5bd54c85c48b355423aa825b7d46.png

Of course someone else may interpret these records in a different way, but I don't think the movements of 2/4th Bn Leicestershire Regt contradict this. 

All the best,

John

 

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17 minutes ago, flintman said:

This has been such an interesting exercise. Thanks for all of your input and comments. 
Clive  

Without trying to swamp you with information Clive, this map from The Nat Library Scotland may help you; corrected to 14th Dec 1917. Link here;https://maps.nls.uk/view/101724042 Also the 177 Infantry Brigade WD has a few good map references and place names on the map. Link here;https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355201  You need the 2nd part of it as it is split into 5 downloads.   @johntaylor I am pleased that the map showing 'derelict tanks' helped you. Best wishes, Bob. (pimage.png.eed9bada9583a4fb7505c8d455b5b5a5.pngart of the map screen shot here courtesy NLScotland)

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2 hours ago, flintman said:

This has been such an interesting exercise. Thanks for all of your input and comments. 
Clive  

Not wishing to contradict anyone or confuse, my curious mind has been reading the 176 Infantry Brigade WD.   WO 95 3020-2_3  On 29th at 5 30 pm the Brigade HQ  moved from la justice L 1 d 90. 45. to Flesquieres K 24 b 2. 8.   20486 Private Charles Onions body was found at grid ref K 24 a 8. 6. which looks to me to be in a trench looking at the map. That is very close to the Brigade HQ, which is in a wood or in the remains of a wood at this stage of the war. Only 150, max 300 yards apart. The 177 Infantry Brigade came forward and took over defense of  the village of Flesquieres which by orders had to be held at all costs. So was Pte Onions part of the HQ 176 Infantry Brigade men? I need to read a bit more to get my head around the situation. Regards, Bob.

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Hi Bob,

Fascinating. 
I await your further thoughts and your map with trench detail. I will look at the other 2 soldiers also in the 2/6th SSR as there are 3 in total on the documents attached to CWGC - same date. 

Also, I have not yet looked at the 2/6th North Staffs Regt War Diary which I havnt yet done. 
Thanks

Clive 

 

Hi Bob

Got the map ✔️

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8 hours ago, flintman said:

“La Justice “ which I could not find on my current French Atlas

La Justice is shown on this November / December 1917 operations map for Third Army.  Bourlon Wood is some 3,700 metres north of la Justice.

image.png.bda9048c31ef2907240fc7109af07bcf.png

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Good morning White Star Line.

Thanks for your map and detail. 
It really helps build the story here and  to help interpret the information that is still emerging. 
Clive 

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